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Post by Balfour on Sept 27, 2011 8:05:26 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 27, 2011 8:27:17 GMT -8
re the specific measure outlined today:
I forsee a few that will have operational impact; ie impact the general user of the system: - the 18-month delay in some capital expenditures. This will likely delay Tachek's rebuild/upgrade (my guess). Therefore this frees-up Tachek for relief work. If Tachek were out-of-service at Point Hope Shipyard for a year, then there would have been fewer options if a ship such as Tenaka or NIP were to break-down.
- of course the 400 sailings on the major routes is an impact. But lets be clear on the magnitude: - assume that the 3 major routes all have 8 trips per day leaving each terminal. That's 16 trips x 3 routes = 48 trips per day. - 48 trips per day x 365 days = 17,520 trips for the year. - remove 420 of those trips, and you still have 17,120 trips, which is only a 2.3% reduction. Not a large impact.
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Regarding the 2 year wage freeze: - this is the year that the employee collective-bargaining agreement expires. So this will make any "negotiation" moot, considering that the right to strike would likely be taken away..........which makes for the possibility of wild-cat strike action or other tactics in lieu of the ability for a regular strike. Just my guesses, based on what happened in the past.
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mrdot
Voyager
Mr. DOT
Posts: 1,252
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Post by mrdot on Sept 27, 2011 8:27:58 GMT -8
:)to the global morning news report, I have only this responce, good riddance to mr. Hahn, and bring back the dogwood! I guess ferries is going to have to trim like the Greek govt., which won't be easy on many long term employees, and my retirement from both public sector careers in my life looks more timely than ever! As for the WAC era legacy, I note that even that 'oversize' Rich Coleman 'liberal' has to pay respect to Bennett's longrange dam planning on the Columbia River, and his ferry policy was sound for that time, but perhaps he set up false expectations for Gulf Islanders, and other coastal folks, and now the chickens are coming to roost! :)mrdot.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 27, 2011 12:01:10 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 27, 2011 21:05:44 GMT -8
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Post by glasseye on Sept 28, 2011 13:56:52 GMT -8
I'm curious what impact consolidating Nanaimo services into HSB would have on existing route 30 users.
There would not be that much of a time-impact for people going to/from destinations in the middle of greater Vancouver as driving times from there to HSB and TSA are more or less equal. However, cancellation of mid-island service from TSA would mean longer trip times for destinations in southern parts of the GVRD, up the Fraser valley, and in the US. It would also mean increased traffic on Ironworkers bridge and Highway 1 on the North Shore.
Whether trip time changes would have an appreciable impact on tourism and freight movement is something that would need to be addressed.
I also guarantee that 5:15am and 11:45pm departures from HSB would generate considerable backlash from local residents because they would be assured of no more than 6h30m of uninterrupted sleep. It's much less of an issue to sound a departure horn at 5:15am at isolated places, such as TSA and Duke Point, than in the middle of a residential area.
Any decision to discontinue route 30 should, I think, be made by the province in the context of the workability of the overall road network rather than just on the basis of what's cheapest for BCFS.
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 28, 2011 14:34:17 GMT -8
For cost-saving measures, they could close Departure Bay and Nanaimo Harbour and consolidate all Nanaimo traffic to Duke Point, where they actually have room for expansion, and no traffic issues. Then we also have two less terminals to maintain too. But, considering BCF just made all those upgrades to Dep Bay, I doubt that'll be happening any time soon.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 28, 2011 19:55:48 GMT -8
I also guarantee that 5:15am and 11:45pm departures from HSB would generate considerable backlash from local residents because they would be assured of no more than 6h30m of uninterrupted sleep. It's much less of an issue to sound a departure horn at 5:15am at isolated places, such as TSA and Duke Point, than in the middle of a residential area. You are forgetting that due to route 30's length a round trip takes 5 hours. To get in 4 round trips requires a 20 hour operating day. Round trips on routes 1 & 2 are 4 hours and operating days are 16 hours (somewhat longer in the summer). There is NO NEED to operate ferries so early or late as a result. The shorter operating day also has several additional benefits such as reduced fuel consumption, crews paid for fewer hours in the work week, less wear & tear on the vessels themselves, etc. Consider also that Greater Victoria has almost half the population of Vancouver Island. It has one ferry route with a minimum of eight sailings daily. It has, I understand, by far the highest 'occupancy rate' of the major routes. By contrast, Nanaimo and the rest of the Island, has two ferry routes and a minimum of 14 sailings daily. The one factor strongly in favour of route 30 is the desire to keep large trucks away from Horseshoe Bay. There was a very nasty accident with a runaway truck there a number of years ago. One last point for the benefit of the younger members of this forum... Route 30 only came into existence around about 1990. Prior to that all BCF traffic to & from Vancouver Island used routes 1 or 2.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 28, 2011 20:07:07 GMT -8
There is NO NEED to operate ferries so early or late as a result. But there is a demand and use for the early and late sailings on Route-30. - the truck deck is usually full on the 5:15am sailings. - while the 22:45 sailings are not usually full (or not even half full), they do have a market, especially for islanders attending evening events in Greater Vancouver.
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piglet
Chief Steward
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Post by piglet on Sept 28, 2011 20:50:35 GMT -8
Trust me, as a commercial driver (strickly big rigs), if I had to go to the island I would aim for the first ferry of the day. If one is lucky you can get in, get unloaded, and with luck reloaded or back to the ferry as quickly as one can. In the trucking industry, time is very definatly money. I seem to remember years ago a very early run to Duke Point. I was able to land on the island and be well out of "rush hour" traffic before those drivers were awake. Cars may not be on the first run of the day to a great extent but to keep the commercial end of the island rolling, the rigs have to roll too.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 28, 2011 21:05:20 GMT -8
Very early/late sailings would be desirable for route 1 too. But would they be recovering their costs. That has to be considered.
The real question is in the current state of affairs with BCFS is: are two routes leading to/from Nanaimo necessary?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 28, 2011 21:42:57 GMT -8
Very early/late sailings would be desirable for route 1 too. But would they be recovering their costs. That has to be considered. The real question is in the current state of affairs with BCFS is: are two routes leading to/from Nanaimo necessary? Yes. And let's not give them any ideas. Keep in mind that the contract with the province mandates service on both routes. Last year, route one carried 2.2 million AEQ, and the figure was identical for routes 2 and 30 combined. Funnelling all that traffic through one terminal would put an unbearable strain on any of the terminals other than Duke Point, and would put a strain on access roads as well. The 5:15 am sailing, essential for commercial traffic, can only go through Duke Point and Tsawwassen. One million people live between Richmond and Langley, so access to the whole Island from Tsawwassen is essential. Vancouver and northern suburbs are connected more efficiently to Horseshoe Bay, and that's well in excess of one million. Three routes connecting a total of almost three million people on the mainland and Vancouver Island doesn't seem excessive.
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 28, 2011 21:56:07 GMT -8
Could they do a nighttime route 1 round trip running the Queen of Nanaimo, or even the Queen of Cumberland if traffic levels are low enough and conditions are calm-ish in the gulf? That would reduce operating costs. Yes, I do realize the Cumby travels slower than route 1 ships, so the trip would be longer, but still, if someone wants to get to the mainland, they'll take the night sailing, even if it does take longer. Same deal on route 2, have the Capilano run one nighttime round trip around 01:00 or 02:00.
Maybe a route 3 latenight, also on the Cappy. She could probably even do a 2/3 triangle from HSB to LGD to DPB to LGD to HSB to combine it all into one trip. Less expensive to do than one round trip on each route.
They could reactive route 1a for a nighttime sailing and have the Queen of Nanaimo run from TSA to either VB or LH then to SWB, and back again on the same pattern.
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Post by glasseye on Sept 28, 2011 22:52:32 GMT -8
@lvc: Do you mean overnight sailings on smaller ferries as a replacement for route 30? I don't see how that solves anything. Overnight sailings in lieu of route 30 would mean an unacceptable loss in capacity unless route 2 was augmented. Augmenting route 2 and adding overnight sailings probably wouldn't save any money over keeping route 30.
In any case, overnight sailings would be unacceptable in HSB and DPB for noise reasons.
If we're on the topic of pipe dreams, however, I'd suggest building a bridge link HSB-Bowen-Keats-Gibsons and serving Nanaimo from a new terminal at Roberts Creek. It'd cost the province a few billion up front and you'd hear the NIMBYs screaming in Halifax, but a bridge would revolutionize the sunshine coast and let BCFS cancel two routes.
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 29, 2011 6:35:35 GMT -8
@lvc: Do you mean overnight sailings on smaller ferries as a replacement for route 30? I don't see how that solves anything. Overnight sailings in lieu of route 30 would mean an unacceptable loss in capacity unless route 2 was augmented. Augmenting route 2 and adding overnight sailings probably wouldn't save any money over keeping route 30. In any case, overnight sailings would be unacceptable in HSB and DPB for noise reasons. If we're on the topic of pipe dreams, however, I'd suggest building a bridge link HSB-Bowen-Keats-Gibsons and serving Nanaimo from a new terminal at Roberts Creek. It'd cost the province a few billion up front and you'd hear the NIMBYs screaming in Halifax, but a bridge would revolutionize the sunshine coast and let BCFS cancel two routes. That's a good idea, Glasseye. I didn't mean it as a replacement for route 30, I meant it as an alternative for people who want to travel at night on the other major routes. Route 30 doesn't have a smaller vessel readily available to use for an overnight trip, except for the Quinsam, which is just a little bit TOO small for that kind of route. Now, the Viking, who just woke up 5 minutes ago, should probably getting to school, which started 35 minutes ago.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,151
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Post by Neil on Jan 14, 2012 14:49:03 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 14, 2012 18:07:29 GMT -8
A sign of things to come? The first indication of a change in the relationship between BC Ferries and the province? Wow, the Province actually said "No" to BC Ferries. I'm interested in seeing how the next few months unfold.
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Post by Dane on Jan 14, 2012 21:27:32 GMT -8
This could potentially be the beginning of period of rather significant change for BC Ferries. Obviously, in my bias opinion, to the better.
The forthcoming report on the BCFS organization should be extraordinarily interesting, or filled with pictures on glassy paper with no substantive comments.
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Post by chinook2 on Jan 15, 2012 13:32:32 GMT -8
What would make sense to me in the summer would be to convert the late afternoon/evening sailings of the New West (or the CR if it stays at TSA long term) into MDS, so the ship could be used on rte. 30 if demand warranted it.
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Post by Scott on Feb 6, 2012 17:54:17 GMT -8
BC Ferries was the topic on CKNW on both my morning and evening commute. They were talking about how BC Ferries would like to cut service levels on many of the minor routes in order to recover costs. This issue has also come up with the recent review of the BC Ferry Act as one of the changes that could be made to make BC Ferries more sustainable financially.
What did come up was the fact that on some of the minor routes, ferries frequently sail empty, especially the evening sailings. BC Ferries claims that on some of these smaller routes the crew is being paid double-time during these last sailings of the day, making these trips even more expensive to run. Apparently the Skidegate - Alliford Bay route has hundreds of sailings per year where there are no passengers.
It would seem logical that schedules on some of these smaller money-losing routes could be adjusted to lower costs. However it is probably more difficult than just cutting out a few sailings. Unless you cut out sailings in the early morning or late at night, they will still have to pay to crew the vessels. Hypothetically, they could go from hourly sailings to Denman Island to once every two hours, but they'd still need to crew the boat for the same amount of time, so they wouldn't save much money. And for all the routes, unless they cancelled all the monring sailings or all the afternoon/evening sailings, they still need two crews per day to run the ship. They could shorten shifts, at least to remove the need for overtime, but would the union have a problem if the corporation cut back hours too much?
Makes for an interesting discussion and it's definitely more complicated than what it might appear on the surface.
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Post by lmtengs on Feb 6, 2012 22:51:07 GMT -8
BC Ferries was the topic on CKNW on both my morning and evening commute. They were talking about how BC Ferries would like to cut service levels on many of the minor routes in order to recover costs. This issue has also come up with the recent review of the BC Ferry Act as one of the changes that could be made to make BC Ferries more sustainable financially. What did come up was the fact that on some of the minor routes, ferries frequently sail empty, especially the evening sailings. BC Ferries claims that on some of these smaller routes the crew is being paid double-time during these last sailings of the day, making these trips even more expensive to run. Apparently the Skidegate - Alliford Bay route has hundreds of sailings per year where there are no passengers. It would seem logical that schedules on some of these smaller money-losing routes could be adjusted to lower costs. However it is probably more difficult than just cutting out a few sailings. Unless you cut out sailings in the early morning or late at night, they will still have to pay to crew the vessels. Hypothetically, they could go from hourly sailings to Denman Island to once every two hours, but they'd still need to crew the boat for the same amount of time, so they wouldn't save much money. And for all the routes, unless they cancelled all the monring sailings or all the afternoon/evening sailings, they still need two crews per day to run the ship. They could shorten shifts, at least to remove the need for overtime, but would the union have a problem if the corporation cut back hours too much? Makes for an interesting discussion and it's definitely more complicated than what it might appear on the surface. On the Skidegate-Alliford Bay route, couldn't they employ some kind of Call-a-Ferry system, plus maybe three scheduled daily round-trips? That way, one could phone the ship and tell the crew that they'll be at the terminal at X-time in the afternoon to catch the ship, and the ferry could be run to the terminal at that time to take the customer. Of course, there would still be regularly scheduled sailings to connect with the sailings to/from Prince Rupert, and some others here and there around the clock.
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Post by Scott on Feb 6, 2012 23:43:50 GMT -8
Does anyone know how full that ferry ever gets? Does it ever have a full load? I know there's an airport on the Alliford Bay side at Sandspit, but are there not only one or two scheduled flights per day? Maybe they could look at a smaller ferry requiring a smaller crew.
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Post by lmtengs on Feb 7, 2012 6:41:04 GMT -8
Does anyone know how full that ferry ever gets? Does it ever have a full load? I know there's an airport on the Alliford Bay side at Sandspit, but are there not only one or two scheduled flights per day? Maybe they could look at a smaller ferry requiring a smaller crew. There were at least 12 vehicles aboard on my sailing from Skid to Alliford in 2009, but that sailing connected with a Prince Rupert sailing. The return trip the next day was near empty, us and three-ish others.
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 7, 2012 9:42:28 GMT -8
Does anyone know how full that ferry ever gets? Does it ever have a full load? I know there's an airport on the Alliford Bay side at Sandspit, but are there not only one or two scheduled flights per day? Maybe they could look at a smaller ferry requiring a smaller crew. There were at least 12 vehicles aboard on my sailing from Skid to Alliford in 2009, but that sailing connected with a Prince Rupert sailing. The return trip the next day was near empty, us and three-ish others. I would guess that on average utilization of available car deck capacity on this route is ~30%. I wonder if it is much different on similar short hops elsewhere in the BCFS system, especially on outlying island routes such as Quadra to Cortes, or Denman to Hornby. I have been on this ferry when my car was the one & only, and I have been aboard when the car deck was 95% full. The main airport for Haida Gwaii is at Sandspit, on Morseby Island (that airport was constructed in WW II for military reasons). Most of the population of Haida Gwaii lives on Graham Island (the 'north island'). In order to get to the airport they must use the ferry. I believe that there are flights twice daily. The ferry is usually busy & sometimes full for sailings connecting to flight times. High school age kids on Moresby Island must travel to Queen Charlotte City (QCC) to attend school. This means taking the ferry. Residents in Sandspit, & elsewhere on Moresby have very limited shopping available, and have to travel across to QCC (& occasionally Rupert or Terrace) to obtain the stuff that exurbanites can get around the corner at the local Walmart. That means ferry trips. Compare this with inland BC areas such as the small communities south of Burns Lake who are also ferry dependant. There is one difference though. Ferries there have no user fees, and so far no one has made a big deal out of the fact that that ferry is often lightly used. We also need to consider that for decades very valuable forest resources have been harvested in Haida Gwaii, creating some jobs in the bush on the islands, and thousands more mill jobs elsewhere in places like Powell River. Today, the harvest continues, though the mill jobs are now mostly in China. Our provincial government collects considerable revenue (they call it stumpage, I think) from all of this, and can afford to put some of that revenue back into the Islands in the form of decent & reliable ferry service.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,151
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Post by Neil on Feb 7, 2012 13:30:47 GMT -8
Skidegate - Alliford Bay has by far the lowest capacity utilization in the system at 21%. (Denman is 40%) It also has by far the worst (operating) revenue to expenses ratio, at 1:5.
Still, I agree completely with White Coast. Small communities need to be supported, just as neighborhoods and communities get bus service even if their ridership is way lower than inner city areas. I liked the point WC made about resources, and I suspect that Haida Gwaii has indeed contributed a lot of fish and old growth timber to our province's economy. In any event, our small rural communities are important and the viability of our native communities depends on decent transportation links.
I've argued before that there's no overall vision or rationale for our transportation systems. Highways, transit, and ferries all have their own priorities, and different expectations as to how much they should cost and what their return to society should be. Harper decided that political points could be gained by throwing some federal money at BC, so BC Ferries built a $25 million terminal and road at Klemtu, even though that terminal serves a small fraction of what the Kwuna carries. That sum would cover the entire operating shortfall on route 26 for ten years.
Route 7 is also a huge money loser, and averages only 27% capacity, yet no one is talking about cutting back there, and it even got a new ferry a couple of years ago. Maybe some evening runs on route 26 could be cut some nights of the week to save on fuel and labour, but deep cuts would hurt Moresby Island and should not be allowed by the province.
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