Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Dec 22, 2011 13:38:09 GMT -8
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Post by lmtengs on Dec 22, 2011 14:01:48 GMT -8
Watch the first video, they show some footage of damage to the side of the ramp and the door.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 22, 2011 14:30:47 GMT -8
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Post by glasseye on Dec 22, 2011 15:55:18 GMT -8
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Kam
Voyager
Posts: 926
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Post by Kam on Dec 22, 2011 21:33:11 GMT -8
So the propeller feathered out rather than going through to reverse… I wonder if this issue is related to the original propeller hub issue that CR had while still on trial at Flensburger… I remember she had to be pulled in to dry dock to address something at the time.
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 22, 2011 22:19:14 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 22, 2011 22:28:42 GMT -8
This is a very much needed - some impartial eyes to look hard at the frequency and severity of this type of accident with BC Ferry Services. WSF's has a high number of vessel dockings daily just like BCFS. I wonder how their record compares and if they just pass off hard landings as 'normal'?
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Post by glasseye on Dec 22, 2011 22:36:58 GMT -8
I wonder if Raeside knows about siitech: No, that's not a Photoshop job. My guess is that some of CI's navigation instruments have been shut down and the AIS transponder is interpreting the lack of a compass source as an indication that the ship is pointing at true north....
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piglet
Chief Steward
Posts: 138
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Post by piglet on Dec 22, 2011 23:06:43 GMT -8
If its not an instrument malfunction, I hope someone got a picture of it.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 23, 2011 17:26:13 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 23, 2011 18:46:09 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 24, 2011 9:44:33 GMT -8
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Post by glasseye on Dec 24, 2011 14:54:40 GMT -8
That blog post doesn't smell right.
If you read the post closely, the author says that both props on the Coastals are always driven, even when the ships are in transit mode (aka mode 1 on a C class), and cannot be stopped in an emergency.
I can't find any official refutation from BCFS, but neither of these assertions passes the smell test. There's no good reason to spin the front prop in transit mode and there must be some way to stop shafts on command because BCFS was experimenting with powering down the berth-side shaft when docked to reduce noise complaints.
Given that the article's primary thesis is that a variable speed shaft system would make the Coastals safer by letting the crew slow or stop shafts if the CPP system fails, mistakes of this nature tear very large holes in the article's argument.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 26, 2011 9:18:08 GMT -8
That blog post doesn't smell right. If you read the post closely, the author says that both props on the Coastals are always driven, even when the ships are in transit mode (aka mode 1 on a C class), and cannot be stopped in an emergency. I can't find any official refutation from BCFS, but neither of these assertions passes the smell test. There's no good reason to spin the front prop in transit mode and there must be some way to stop shafts on command because BCFS was experimenting with powering down the berth-side shaft when docked to reduce noise complaints. Given that the article's primary thesis is that a variable speed shaft system would make the Coastals safer by letting the crew slow or stop shafts if the CPP system fails, mistakes of this nature tear very large holes in the article's argument. GlassEye's above posted resulted in a follow-up to the blog. - see bottom of this link for update tidalstation.blogspot.com/------------------- Christina Montgomery's WordPress blog has ongoing entries and reader-comments on the crash story. If you're interested in this story, bookmark her blog and check it daily: onthewaterfrontblog.wordpress.com/
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timo
Deckhand
Posts: 57
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Post by timo on Dec 27, 2011 9:31:10 GMT -8
Well, not to reduce the significance of this - I do not know all the details, but this sort of thing happens every now and then. The same is with groundings and so on.
Occasionally there is an error of judgement, a technical mishap or just attempting to berth in too severe weather, and the result is a bump. It can result in this sort of damage, which is not in itself major, but can mean that repairs take a very long time. I have my own story of this:
In Rostock in 2002 Superfast VIII touched the upper deck ramp which was lifted up in its upward position to allow us to depart while leaving the berth. We slowly were using the spring to move outwards as the stern needed to be moved out into the channel before reversing as there was another link-span astern of us.
While doing this the master did not notice the ship moving slightly forward - and nobody else either, until it was too late. The impact in itself was not heavy, the "lip" of the deck touched the shore based ramp and made a scrape on it that was about 5 feet long, and the lip was bent maybe 3 cm upward and aft - just enough to prevent the visor type upper barrier to lock into position. This did not make the ship unseaworthy as it was mostly a decorative touch and the main doors were closed to deck 3. The damage to the ship was repaired in Hanko two days later, and repairs took three hours.
But the ramp. First - owner and port started a war of words regarding who was to pay. In the event the owners realised that the only one they were harming were themselves, as before repairs to the ramp were made, it would not be used. And Superfast was the only user... The damage was a bit more serious than it seemed, as the ship had pushed on the ramp, trying to bend it backwards, causing it to sway at the moment of impact ( I remember us running like hell to the car deck - as it was protected by four decks of superstructure when we realised the ramp was swaying) and this had to be checked, which took a long time. If I remember correctly it was over 2 months before it was in use again.
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Post by cmontgomery on Dec 28, 2011 20:02:04 GMT -8
Hello folks, sorry to butt in to your very interesting conversation. Just to let you know, since there was a query by White Coast, I had phoned WSF myself to ask about their numbers on hard landings. Because of the holiday, I just got the answer, and thought I'd pass it along. To quote their email: "Regarding the number of hard landings that Washington State Ferries have experienced in 2010 and 2011 – the answer is two." I'm still trying to clarify if that means a total of two, or two each year. Until I hear, to be fair to BCFS in comparing, I'm assuming it's two per year. Although it does read more like a total... cheers, Chris Montgomery
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 29, 2011 7:22:30 GMT -8
Hello folks, sorry to butt in to your very interesting conversation. Just to let you know, since there was a query by White Coast, I had phoned WSF myself to ask about their numbers on hard landings. Because of the holiday, I just got the answer, and thought I'd pass it along. To quote their email: "Regarding the number of hard landings that Washington State Ferries have experienced in 2010 and 2011 – the answer is two." I'm still trying to clarify if that means a total of two, or two each year. Until I hear, to be fair to BCFS in comparing, I'm assuming it's two per year. Although it does read more like a total... cheers, Chris Montgomery Does anyone remember what and where those hard landings were in 2010 and 2011? The last one I can recall occurred in August of 2009 when Wenatchee approached Colman Dock going too fast in thick fog and slammed into Slip 3.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Dec 29, 2011 7:43:34 GMT -8
Hello folks, sorry to butt in to your very interesting conversation. Just to let you know, since there was a query by White Coast, I had phoned WSF myself to ask about their numbers on hard landings. Because of the holiday, I just got the answer, and thought I'd pass it along. To quote their email: "Regarding the number of hard landings that Washington State Ferries have experienced in 2010 and 2011 – the answer is two." I'm still trying to clarify if that means a total of two, or two each year. Until I hear, to be fair to BCFS in comparing, I'm assuming it's two per year. Although it does read more like a total... cheers, Chris Montgomery Does anyone remember what and where those hard landings were in 2010 and 2011? The last one I can recall occurred in August of 2009 when Wenatchee approached Colman Dock going too fast in thick fog and slammed into Slip 3. Don't remember these recent hard landings. Today is December 29, 2011. The thirty-first anniversary of the WSF ISSAQUAH's First Birthday Bashing of Fauntleroy, sending Vashon and Southworth traffic through an already crowded Colman Dock saturated with holiday travelers going to Winslow and Bremerton. It might be a good idea to keep a Birthday Boat tied up for the day. You don't know what she'll be up to that day. But, then, she may retaliate and do her damage the next day! ;D
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Post by cmontgomery on Dec 29, 2011 11:49:16 GMT -8
Just got a clarification from WSF. Fyi, the two hard landings they are reporting in the past two years were two in total, they say. Both in 2010, nothing in 2011. Chris Montgomery
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 29, 2011 12:23:28 GMT -8
Just got a clarification from WSF. Fyi, the two hard landings they are reporting in the past two years were two in total, they say. Both in 2010, nothing in 2011. Chris Montgomery Thanks for the follow-up. You're always welcome here.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 4, 2012 19:20:17 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 8, 2012 9:02:10 GMT -8
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mrdot
Voyager
Mr. DOT
Posts: 1,252
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Post by mrdot on Jan 8, 2012 10:25:24 GMT -8
:)maybe the superferries from the fatherland don't feel they need any backup! ???mrdot.
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Post by uricanejack on Jan 10, 2012 19:28:53 GMT -8
Well the corporate spin doctors from the PR department have done there job and confused the issue by flinging out a quick route cause that sounds good and deflects interest away from the real issues. All most all of the media will report on is on the electronic failure.
The electronic failure no doubt occurred. It may even be considered a route cause of the pitch failure.
The pitch failure is just the immediate cause. Of the broken link in a long chain of events which led to a hard landing.
The actual root cause will not be determined until after the investigation process is completed.
The chain of events leading to the hard landing continued with the response to the pitch failure. Mr Collins star must be fading at BCFS if he is being exposed to direct questioning by a reported as if its his department which failed and his responsibility.
This is unfair. As he said there are built in redundancies to all such systems. Any mechanical or electronic system may fail for any number of reasons.
The trouble with the redundancies. The operator needs time to evaluate the problem. To determine or diagnose the problem and choose the appropriate back up system or response.
The operating system or standard operating procedure. If followed include. Pre landing check’s of the mechanical systems. In sufficient time to delay or abort the landing if there is a problem. Or Choose an appropriate back up procedure. For example engine room control instead of bridge control.
After initial “pre arrival checks” are completed and found to be in order. “Standard Operating Procedure” include. Continued monitoring of the approach and each significant step in the process confirmed by the entire “bridge team“. This is known as “Bridge Team Recourse Management“. Which is derived from and remarkably similar to “Cockpit Resource Management“. Both of which can be goggled.
All commercial vessels are expected to use a “passage plan” similar to a “flight plan” which will detail when each of the required standard operating procedure check are required to be performed. And limits of approach without successful completion.
To be fair to Mr Collins while there may have been a electronic and mechanical failure which would be his area of responsibility. There appears to have been equally significant failures in the standard operating procedure. Which are not his area of responsibility.
To quote my flight instructor many years ago. “The only thing more useless than the runway behind you when some thing goes wrong is the sky above you“. The sky above may not have much bearing on a Ferry but the sea behind it seems to fit the bill.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 12, 2012 9:17:48 GMT -8
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