CP's BC Coast Service: general thread

[Scott]

Imagine living in 1913. The CPR had just placed an order for two steamships which would have been the largest, fastest, and perhaps most beautiful Princess ships to sail our waters. In fact, it wasn't until 1955 that a new Princess would match their length - that was the Princess of Vancouver. We can all relate to the excitement and anticipation of having new ships built for us overseas. The Princess Margaret was launched June 24, 1914, only thirty-four days before the commencement of the Great War (WWI). The Princess Irene was followed a few months later. However, neither of them ever saw BC waters. They were the ferries that never came.

The following is an excerpt from "Those Beautiful Coastal Liners" by Robert D. Turner, pg. 57

"The Princess Irene and Princess Margaret would have been the largest and fastest steamships on the Pacific Coast but they never joined the Coast Steamship Service. With 202 staterooms providing berths for 423 passengers and dining rooms with seating for 186 they were luxuriously appointed. Built by the Wm. Denny & Bros. yards and Dumbarton, the Margaret was launched on June 24, 1914 and the Irene followed on October 20. At 5900 gross tons, 395 feet (120 m) in length and 54 feet (16.5 m) in breadth, they were not exceeded in size until the Princess of Nanaimo surpassed them in tonnage and the Princess of Vancouver in length. Both steamers were used as minelayers. The Margaret was charted between December 26, 1914 and April 27, 1919 and was then sold to the Admiralty, finally being scrapped in 1929. The Irene's charter began on January 20, 1915 but she blew up at Sheerness on May 27, 1915, with the loss of approximately 270 crew and dockyard workmen. A monument at Sheerness commemorates those who lost their lives on the Irene..."

And from "The Pacific Princesses" by Robert D. Turner,

"The life of the Princess Irene as a naval auxiliary was short. On May 27, 1915, while in Sheerness Harbour, England the ship blew up and was a total loss. All but one of the crew of 274 officers and men and the 74 Sheerness Dockyard workers on board were killed by an explosion, whose cause was never fully explained. The Princess Margaret was more fortunate. She survived a number of hazardous operations during the war, once reportedly reaching a speed of 29 knots while escaping from a German squadron. After the war, she was purchased outright by the Admiralty and was employed in the Baltic in operations against the Bolshevic forces. In addition to mine-laying during this period, the Princess Margaret served as a hospital ship and refugee transport."

As a slight aside, I was somewhat surprised to learn that submarines were successfully used by the Germans in World War I. Most of the greatest battles were fought in the trenches in mainland Europe, but the Great War also brought with it new forms of warfare - aerial bombing, air combat, the aircraft carrier, and depth charges. Interesting.

[Queen of Nanaimo Teen]

I'm glad a topic about these things has been brought up! When I was reading the Pacific Princesses, some of those stories made me really sad! That story about the Princess Irene especially hit hard. She was a great looking ship and would have made an excellent addition to C.P.R's fleet! Now, the CPR could have bought back the Margaret, correct? That picture of Miss Adelaide is a great one! (except for the fact she is in war colors) I really like those two sisters, they were excellently designed and they lasted for quite a long time. Do any of you guys ever feel sad/ melancholy when reading these books? I always hate reading about when a ship is sent to war, or sold, or anything bad!

[Mill Bay]

admin said:

As a slight aside, I was somewhat surprised to learn that submarines were successfully used by the Germans in World War I. Most of the greatest battles were fought in the trenches in mainland Europe, but the Great War also brought with it new forms of warfare - aerial bombing, air combat, the aircraft carrier, and depth charges. Interesting.

Yes that's true... that is one of the reasons it was considered 'the war to end all wars', because when they saw what happened in the trenches, many thought that the technology of war had reached its limits, at least in terms of its potential to destroy... too bad this wasn't correct.

Submarines were used very effectively in this war though--just remember the Lusitania--and they had an absolutely devastating and almost crippling effect on allied shipping during the first few years of the war.

It's interesting thought, how Princess Irene just exploded in port and they never knew why.

[Deleted]

With Remembrance Day being so close, there has been a lot of war movies and documentaries on Television as of late.

I really like the ones where they show underwater searching, such as The Sea Hunters and others. I saw a documentary on how they found the Japanese Mini Sub that the Ward had sunk ---the 1st hit of WW11 for the Americans at Pearl Harbor.

Another film was one about the capture of the Enigma---the German coding Machine. I had heard about it before and it was really interesting to watch.

[Scott]

Another local ferry service we might not think about very often was hugely impacted by war in Europe beginning in 1939. With the construction of the Lions Gate Bridge in 1938 and the establishment of bus service between North Vancouver and Vancouver, the North Vancouver Ferries saw a sharp drop in traffic in the years immediately preceeding the beginning of World War II.

From "Ferry Across the Harbour" by Capt. James Barr:

"There was some talk of discontinuing the ferry service in the immediate pre-War period, but the advent of the Second World War drastically changed the transportation picture. We have, I suppose, to thank Adolf Hitler for the fact that the North Shore shipyards became very active and began to work three shifts per day. The ferry traffic increased tremendously as teh shipyards were close to the ferry wharf in North Vancouver and most of the workers travelled on foot. In an attempt to cope with the increased traffic the North Vancouver City Council added Ferry No. 5 to the fleet. She was built in False Creek by the Waltham Company. A motor ferr, she was 140 feet long with ample passenger accommodation and space for four lanes of vehicles.

In the summer of 1942 it became necessary to augment the service again and the ferry Crosline of Seattle, Washington, was purchased by Wartime Merchant Shipping Ltd., to help in the ferrying of shipyard workers across the Inlet. This vessel which was fitted out to carry only passengers was 143 feet overall with a beam of 48 feet. She was capable of accommodating 1200 passengers. In 1943, with the North Vancouver Ferries Nos. 3, 4, 5, and the Crossline in service, the peak of passenger volume was reached. In that year a total of 7,048,532 passengers were carried..." pgs. 62-63

Interesting to note how this ferry service went from almost ceasing to breaking traffic records in a few short years due to the wartime industry here at home. Even after the war, the shipyards in North Vancouver continued to build ships for several years, providing enough traffic to keep the North Van ferries active until 1958.

I've always had a little "more" interest in the North Vancouver Ferries since I'm told that my grandfather used to take the ferries every day to get to work. I'm not sure if he worked in the shipyards during part of the wartime years, but I have this little photograph that he took of the North Vancouver Ferry No. 3:

[Barnacle]

As a footnote, Capt. Barr misspelled the name Crosline.

[Scott]

I'm sorry, that was actually my spelling mistake What makes it worse is that I actually spent a few minutes looking into the history of that ferry in "A Legend on Puget Sound - FERRYBOATS".

[EGfleet]

admin said:

I'm sorry, that was actually my spelling mistake What makes it worse is that I actually spent a few minutes looking into the history of that ferry in "A Legend on Puget Sound - FERRYBOATS".

It's easy to do because Crossline just seems to make more sense.

I had to fight my editor over that a few times as she kept "correcting" it as Crossline instead of Crosline.

I finally got it through to them when I said it was named after Captain Crosby. It was his "C" boat--since his other two were Airline and Beeline.

[M/V LeConte]

admin said:

On her return, the Princess Kathleen underwent a 1.5 million dollar refit to rebuild her passenger accommodations. She ended her days on the Alaska route. Her end was similar to the Queen of the North's. Miscommunication on the bridge led to the Princess sailing head-on into Lena Point, Alaska, in the early hours of the morning. Fortunately, she was grounded and kept afloat for several hours before she was abandoned.

A crew member I work with swears that there is the remains of one of the PK's Lifeboats sitting on Lena Point. He grew up in Juneau and spent quite a bit of his youth out there. It would be interesting to see if it is still there and what remains.

[Scott]

From George A Rushton in Whistle Up the Inlet (pg. 135)

Unsettled conditions in the Orient had already upset local trade as rumbles from the explosive situation in China reverberated across the Pacific. Then, in September 1939, hostilities broke out in Europe, and Canada's entry brought blackness and silence to the British Columbia coast. All vessels operated under difficult conditions, using navigation lights only and with silenced radios; and all ports were blacked out. Later there would be degaussing cables and paravanes for anti-mine protection, pilothouses reinforced with cement blocks, and tern guns manned by naval ratings. Information on departure and arrival times was soon omitted from the schedule for vessels operating in outside waters, intending passengers having to apply in person for sailing information, especially at this time when Japanese submarines were reported to be operating off Vancouver Island.

During the war, CN operated the steamships Prince Charles and Prince John between Prince Rupert (the port had been put in the hands of the US Army) and the Queen Charlotte Islands which became an important destination with the construction of an RCAF base at Sandspit. The ferries and route was taken over by the Union Steamship Company and the ferries were renamed Camosun II and Cassiar II respectively.

[Scott]

Three of Canadian National's Prince ships saw active duty as part of the Royal Canadian Navy; the Prince Robert, Prince David, and Prince Henry. None of them, however, were taken out of active ferry service since CN's operations had largely stopped on the south coast in the early 1930s. When the war started, the Prince David and Prince Henrywere being operated out of Halifax. However, the Prince Robertwas still in Vancouver.

Norman Hacking in Prince Ships of Northern BC (pg 56-57):

"I recall seeing Prince Robert being stripped of her passenger accommodation in Vancouver. It was pouring rain and all her magnificent furnishings, carpets, bedding, and even the sterling silver champagne buckets were unceremoniously tossed into a soggy heap on the dockside."

These steamships were not just refitted for wartime service, they had been bought by the navy and were totally rebuilt as armed cruisers. The Prince Robert , while still being outfitted and crewed in Victoria in September 1940 was sent to Mexico to intercept a German freighter at the port of Manzanillo. The German ship Weser was boarded and the Prince Robertescorted the captured vessel to Victoria.

Norman Hacking goes on to say:

Prince Robert soon began a series of escort cruises bringing New Zealand and Australian airmen to Canada for training. In 1941 she escorted the liner Awatea from Vancouver to Hong Kong with Canadian troops destined to be captured by the Japanese. She cleared Honolulu for home just three days before the attack on Pearl Harbour. She was in Sydney, Australia, when the Japanese surrendered and was the first ship to send a landing party to Sham Shui prison camp at Hong Kong where 370 Canadians were among the 1,500 internees. (pg. 58)

The three ex-ferries were also used to escort American convoys up and down the coast to and from Alaska during the war. The Prince Henry and Prince David also saw action in Europe including participation during Normandy, in the Mediterranean arena, and in the liberation of Greece near the end of the war.

[Scott]

The two Canadian Pacific ships Princess Kathleen and Princess Marguerite were both lost to World War I, before they ever reached Canadian waters. However, World War I had a big impact on the existing CP service back in British Columbia as well.

From Robert Turner's The Pacific Princesses (pg 109):

Many CPR employees left the Princesses to join the armed forces fighting in Europe and the ships themselves provided an important link in the movement of military personnel from their training grounds near Victoria to the mainland, where troop trains took them east for departure to Europe. The troops marched down to the docks from the Willows camps to board the waiting Princesses as crowds lined the streets to cheer them on. Often three or more steamers at a time would be loaded until it appeared the decks would overflow. These were times of excitement charged with patriotic feeling and inner fear, for all present knew that many boarding the liners might never return. Passchendaele, Vimy, Flanders, and other scenes of lasting horror would intervene before the Armistice of November 1918, long years later.

Source: BC Archives (linked from my site) - Princess Sophia with an obvious list as crowds of troops say fairwell.

From Mr. Turner's Those Beautiful Coastal Liners (pg 55):

...Often over 1000 men with their equipment would board the waiting steamers, crowding the decks to the point where it looked as if the ships might tip over. Sometimes additional lifesaving equipment had to be found to meet legal requirements. Princesses also brought contingents from coastal communities and the Yukon to Victoria and Vancouver. Several steamers could be used to handle the larger movements of troops.

Approximately 55,570 of the 620,000 Canadians that served in World War I were from British Columbia (the highest per capita enlistment of all the provinces). A number were trained Victoria before being sent to Europe. For many soldiers, our ferries were the beginning of the journey to a place from where they never returned. The terminals and ferries were places where many final fairwells were said.


Source: BC Archives (linked from my site) - The fairwell scene at Victoria with the Princess Sophia preparing to leave.

Norman Hacking in Prince Ships of Northern BC relates a story from the beginning of World War I. Two German cruisers, the Leipzig and Nurnberg were reportedly in Mazatlan on the Pacific Coast of Mexico when the war commenced. Reported sightings of the cruisers "heading north" from the USA (and later a report that one had been sighted in Queen Charlotte Sound) put the BC coast on high alert. Some steamers were sent to "neutral" American waters and due to the lack of armed vessels on the BC coast, the Prince George was hastily taken over by the navy and transformed into a hospital ship:

From pg. 38,39 of the aforementioned book:

"Command of the ship was given to Lieutenant-Commander A.M. Kinnersley Saul, R.N.R., who happened to be conveniently at hand as chief officer of the lighthouse tender Quadra. Trunk [Grand Trunk Railway] crew, 30 Royal Navy Canadian Volunteer Reserve seamen under a petty officer, and three navy signalmen. The medical and nursing staff from the Royal Jubilee Hospital at Victoria were drafted and the city ransacked for medical supplies. Although the Prince George was ready for action in four days, because of the wet weather it was impossible to paint her sides white with a green stripe, as required for hospital ships."

The ship was sent to Vancouver where it was dry enough to paint one side of the ship:) The German cruisers were never found and the Prince George was decommissioned a few weeks later.

During the war, the Union Steamship Company and the Grand Trunk Railway cooperated in providing optimal service to the northern and coastal communities. Gerald A Rushdon in Whistle up the Inlet gives a human side to the war story (pg 71):

A total of sixty-five ship, wharf, and office employees of the Company [Union Steamship Company] left for active service during the first two war years. Seven masters offered their services to the British Admiralty...

More important than the ships that served and were lost in wartime were the men and women who gave their years, and many their lives, in the defence of their country and fellow citizens.

[Nick]

John, thank you so much for taking the time to write all that out. It really gives some light to what the pacific coast was like in those early war years.

It is very sobering to read this, especially on this the eve of Remembrance Day. To me, Remembrance Day, and the Battle of the Atlantic in May, are two of the most important days of the year. Probably because I am so involved with Sea Cadets, but still. I was especially hit by that picture of the Princess Sophia in Victoria loaded down with troops.

I was reading a pamphlet thingie about the Battle of the Gulf of St. Lawrence published by the Navy today, and it had a small blurb about the SS Caribou ferry that was sunk by U-69 between Sydney NS and Port Aux Basques NL on October 14 1942. She was transporting mostly troops from Halifax on leave, as well as a group of nursing sisters also from the navy on leave. 136 passengers and crew were lost, mainly due to the current naval procedure that required the escorting corvette, HMCS Shawnigan, to hunt the submarine for 2 hours prior to engaging in rescue operations. I was amazed at the loss of human life on board, even when there were extensive rescue procedures in place as they knew a submarine was operating in the area.

It really shows how much we owe to the men and women who served in our Navy, Army, and Air Force to defend our country and our freedoms that most of us take for granted today. I will be in the local parade tomorrow, as it is the absolute least I can do to show my appreciation for those who served, and those who made the ultimate sacrifice for what I enjoy today.

[Low Light Mike]

coxnnick said:

Probably because I am so involved with Sea Cadets...

RCSCC Rainbow? (there's a corps that's named after ship with local history...)

I was in RCSCC Amphion, but that was years ago.

[Nick]

flugelhorn said:

coxnnick said:

Probably because I am so involved with Sea Cadets...

RCSCC Rainbow? (there's a corps that's named after ship with local history...)

I was in RCSCC Amphion, but that was years ago.

Nope, although I know a few of people out at Rainbow. I am the senior cadet (cox'n or coxswain) at RCSCC Admiral Budge out in Sidney (Rainbow is in Esquimalt).

[Low Light Mike]

Not re ferries, but re Nov.11th itself today:

Because it's a Sunday this year, I was in church, and we interrupted our our church-service at 10:55 for a brief service-of-remembrance. I was the "bugler" and played the Last Post and Reveille.....which is a very-lonely time to be a musician, as you are all alone in playing.

It was important for us church-folk to realise that there are very few things that we allow to interrupt our services.....and that this item was one of those rare things. So I think our experience was typical of Society's, in that we needed to choose to stop what we were doing, alter our routines, and to do an act of remembrance.

What did others here do, today?

[Northern Exploration]

It isn't my church but I went to St. James Cathedral here in Toronto for their remembrance day service. It is the home church for the Royal Regiment of Canada. I thought it would be interesting to do. The organ prelude was excellent. It was moving and I was glad I was there. In my row was a couple who's song was in Afganistan and his friend who was back home from duty because of an injury. The only other time I attend this particular church is for the First Evensong on Christmas Eve with the organ, bells and boys choir.

I have always wanted to go to the service at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Ottawa. But couldn't do it this year.

edit. Forgot to add that the organist played Jerusalem in the prelude. I always get chills to that piece. For those who may remember it was used in Chariots of Fire.

[Mill Bay]

flugelhorn said:

Not re ferries, but re Nov.11th itself today:

Because it's a Sunday this year, I was in church, and we interrupted our our church-service at 10:55 for a brief service-of-remembrance. I was the "bugler" and played the Last Post and Reveille.....which is a very-lonely time to be a musician, as you are all alone in playing.

It was important for us church-folk to realise that there are very few things that we allow to interrupt our services.....and that this item was one of those rare things. So I think our experience was typical of Society's, in that we needed to choose to stop what we were doing, alter our routines, and to do an act of remembrance.

What did others here do, today?

Wow, that must have been a very singularly moving experience Flugel... I always love hearing the bugel during the ceremonies. I also was in church this year. We didn't do a moment of silence at 11:00, but we had some minutes of silence after the service and played the music video A Pittance Of Time by Terry Kelly

My favorite part of Nov. 11th is always to here them read The Ode, becaues I think it sums up all the sentiments possible in one simple verse.

The ODE

They shall grow not old
as we that are left grow old
Age shall not weary them
nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun
and in the morning
we will remember them.

LEST WE FORGET

[Low Light Mike]

pnwtraveler said:

... Forgot to add that the organist played Jerusalem in the prelude. I always get chills to that piece. For those who may remember it was used in Chariots of Fire.

I really like that song too, it gives me chills when I hear it on the Chariots of Fire soundtrack (that's my favourite movie of all time).

It's theological basis is questionable to me, but it's still a neat song, and does have the line "chariots of fire" in it, so it's a good subtle tie-in to the movie.......also relevant as Harold Abrams was an English Jew.

[WettCoast]

admin said:

The two Canadian Pacific ships Princess Kathleen and Princess Marguerite were both lost to World War I, before they ever reached Canadian waters. However, World War I had a big impact on the existing CP service back in British Columbia as well.

The Princesses Margaret & Irene were in fact the CP vessels commandeered for use in the 'Great War'. Both never entered service in BC.

The Princesses Kathleen and Marguerite, built in 1925 as replacements for those two vessels, were, of course, CP's major contribution to service in WW II. As most know, the Marguerite was lost to a torpedo in the Mediterranean, and was replaced by the P Marguerite 2 in 1949.

[Scott]

wetcoastkidjst said:

The Princesses Margaret & Irene were in fact the CP vessels commandeered for use in the 'Great War'. Both never entered service in BC.

The Princesses Kathleen and Marguerite, built in 1925 as replacements for those two vessels, were, of course, CP's major contribution to service in WW II. As most know, the Marguerite was lost to a torpedo in the Mediterranean, and was replaced by the P Marguerite 2 in 1949.

Quite right, I mixed my wars up:/

[Retrovision]

From Page 199
"The Pacific Princesses" (1977) by Robert D. Turner

In 1955, the CPR B.C. Coast Service and the Canadian National Railways reached an agreement to operate jointly the Princess Norah to the north coastal settlements. For this service, she was renamed Queen of the North. A weekly sailing provided calls at Westview, Ocean Falls, Kitimat, Prince Rupert and ketchikan, Alaska. By this time, the CNR's steamship operations had been reduced to the summer only Alaska cruises of the new Prince George.

From Page 304
"The Princess Story" (1974) by Norman R. Hacking and W. Kaye Lamb

An interesting change was made in 1955. Early that year the Canadian National steamer Prince Rupert, which had been sailing to the city after which she was named since 1910, was retired from service. There had been no Canadian Pacific regular rear-round service to Prince Rupert since the Princess Adelaide had been withdrawn in 1948, although both the Princess Norah and the Princess Louise ran to Prince Rupert at various times. To fill the gap left by the retirement of the Prince Rupert, the two companies agreed to a joint service, to be maintained by the Princess Norah. In order that neither company should be unduly favoured she was soon renamed Queen of the North and given an unattractive but non-partisan blue funnel with a black top. The crew was provided by the Canadian Pacific, which continued to own and operate the ship, but silver, linen, etc., were supplied by the Canadian National. This arrangement continued in effect until the fall of 1957. early in 1958 the Queen of the North resumed her old colouring, though she retained her new name, and the service was continued for a time by the Canadian Pacific alone.

From the same book, starts on Page 345...

PRINCESS NORAH. Steel single screw steamer. 2731 tons gross. 250.1 x 48.2 x 14.3 feet. 4-cylinder triple-expansion engine. Developed 3379 i.h.p. and a speed of 16.27 knots on trials; service power and speed about i.h.p. and 13.5 knots. Built at Govan, Scotland, in 1928. Renamed Queen of the North in June 1955 when engaged in a joint service of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National. Sold in 1958 [to Northland Navigation] and renamed Canadian Prince. Sold in 1964 for conversion into a floating restaurant and cabaret at Kodiak, Alaska, and renamed Beachcomber.

Until recently I had only seen the one photo of the 'Norah as the Queen of the North that can be seen on Page 201 of the former of these two books, but thanks to a great new resource for historical ship photos - www.photoship.co.uk - I've found another...

[WettCoast]

Tonight on CBC Television News's The National, there is a piece on immigration during the latter half of the program. In this there is a very brief 3 second clip showing a 3-funneled CPR BC Coast Service ship underway. The clip likely dates from the 1940's or 50's. The ship is, I think, the Princess Elaine, once the mainstay of service between Vancouver & Nanaimo. Someone may want to capture this and put it on Youtube.

JST aka WCK

[Deleted]

I think this picture gives a lot of info.



And i have a book on the valencia tradgety.

100 th post ;D

[Neil]

The overnight sailing was actually on the Vancouver - Victoria route. I believe that normally took about four hours, but they stretched it out on the midnight sailings.

For years in the sixties and into the seventies, the Princess of Vancouver had a 2am departure from Vancouver that arrived in Nanaimo at 4:45.