BCF Newbuilds Timeline

[lmtengs]

I find that it can be hard to remember when BCF is planning on replacing certain ships, so here it all is, consolidated down into one thread. We can edit this first post as needed as BCF updates their dates.

So, ship retirements in alphabetical order with citations in brackets.
Note that CFSC stands for the Coastal Ferry Services Contract, with the information dating from 2003.

Bowen Queen -- 2015 (CFSC)
Coastal Renaissance -- est. 2050s/2060s
Coastal Inspiration -- est. 2050s/2060s
Coastal Celebration -- est. 2050s/2060s
Howe Sound Queen -- 2013 (CFSC)
Island Sky -- est. 2050s/2060s
Kahloke -- 2020 (CFSC)
Klitsa -- 2018 (CFSC)
Kuper -- ?
Kwuna -- 2021
Mayne Queen -- 2016 (CFSC)
Nimpkish -- ?
Nicola -- ?
North Island Princess -- 2016 (BCF Performance Term 3, May 2011)
Northern Adventure -- 2020s/30s
Northern Expedition -- 2040s/50s
Powell River Queen -- 2017 (CFSC)
Quadra Queen II -- 2020s/2030s. Mid-life upgrade is supposed to increase life by 20 years.
Queen of Alberni -- 2022 (CFSC)
Queen of Burnaby -- 2017 (CFSC) (BCF Performance Term 3, May 2011)
Queen of Capilano -- 2036 (CFSC)
Queen of Chilliwack -- 2017 [citation] --interesting to note, the CFSC stated in 2003 to have her retired by '09.
Queen of Coquitlam -- 2022 (CFSC)
Queen of Cowichan -- 2022 (CFSC)
Queen of Cumberland -- 2037 (CFSC)
Queen of Nanaimo -- 2017 (BCF Performance Term 3, May 2011)
Queen of New Westminster 2020s/30s
Queen of Oak Bay -- 2027 (CFSC)
Queen of Surrey -- 2027 (CFSC)
Quinitsa -- 2025 (CFSC)
Quinsam -- 2028 (CFSC)
Skeena Queen -- 2042 (CFSC)
Spirit of British Columbia -- 2039 (CFSC)
Spirit of Vancouver Island -- 2040 (CFSC)
Tachek -- CFSC says 2013, but BC is planning a mid-life upgrade for her, to my knowledge.
Tenaka -- 2014 (BCF Performance Term 3, May 2011)

I'm not sure about the all the dates I put in, and where I wasn't at all sure, I put question marks. I stated references where I could.
With new ships, I estimated a 40 to 50 year service life, which seems to be common among our ferries.

Currently planned newbuilds:
Queen of Burnaby replacement -- 2017
Queen of Nanaimo replacement -- 2017
North Island Princess replacement -- 2010s
Northern Discovery, Queen of Chilliwack replacement -- 2017 (assumption from the Chilli's planned retirement date)
Denman Island Cable Ferry -- 2010s

If anyone finds an error or knows any information that isn't listed, please speak up. This is the 'go-to list' for quick retirement, replacement, and newbuild stats.

[Low Light Mike]

The next upcoming 4 or 5 year term of the Coastal Ferry Services Contract (Performance Term #3) was supposed to be finalized by now, but the agreement was delayed by a year because the Province wants to review the Coastal Ferry Act.

Once this Term #3 Agreement gets approved, it will give us all a clearer idea of pending ship retirements & replacements over the next 5 years.

Here's what BCFerries said in May 2011 during negotiations for Performance Term #3:

In PT3, BCFS will enter the second phase of required vessel replacements. During PT3 BCFS will incur expenditures of $225.5 million to replace several vessels over 50 years of age and $112.3 million to upgrade several vessels to ensure safe, reliable service for the remainder of their expected lives. These vessel replacements and upgrades account for 62% of the total capital plan for PT3.

-------
The following are the major planned vessel and information system replacements and their ages upon replacement.

Queen of Burnaby
Age 52 years, replaced in 2017

Queen of Nanaimo
Age 53 years, replaced in 2017

North Island Princess
Age 60 years, replaced in 2016

Tenaka
Age 53 years, replaced in 2014

[lmtengs]

Jan 3, 2012 22:38:43 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

The next upcoming 4 or 5 year term of the Coastal Ferry Services Contract (Performance Term #3) was supposed to be finalized by now, but the agreement was delayed by a year because the Province wants to review the Coastal Ferry Act.

Once this Term #3 Agreement gets approved, it will give us all a clearer idea of pending ship retirements & replacements over the next 5 years.

Here's what BCFerries said in May 2011 during negotiations for Performance Term #3:

In PT3, BCFS will enter the second phase of required vessel replacements. During PT3 BCFS will incur expenditures of $225.5 million to replace several vessels over 50 years of age and $112.3 million to upgrade several vessels to ensure safe, reliable service for the remainder of their expected lives. These vessel replacements and upgrades account for 62% of the total capital plan for PT3.

-------
The following are the major planned vessel and information system replacements and their ages upon replacement.

Queen of Burnaby
Age 52 years, replaced in 2017

Queen of Nanaimo
Age 53 years, replaced in 2017

North Island Princess
Age 60 years, replaced in 2016

Tenaka
Age 53 years, replaced in 2014

Thanks, Mike, I'll edit that in.

[Mike C]

Jan 11, 2012 13:44:35 GMT -8 @4roads said:

Ships like the Nicola and Nimpkish I would gather would be simply retired with no scheduled vessel to vessel replacement.

The Nimpkish's disappearance would pose a problem for BC Ferries, with regard to their ability to serve the communities on the Central Coast. They do not have a vessel that could serve it more efficiently that is also equipped to taking on heavier weather conditions.

[Low Light Mike]

Here's an example of the current uncertainty about the timing of vessel replacements:

- from the October 2011 Ferry-Advisory-Council meeting for Northern Sunshine Coast:

...BC Ferries continues to work under the assumption that unless told otherwise, the NIP and Burnaby will be replaced by ‘like-for-like’ (sufficient capacity to carry existing traffic, amenities and capabilities) vessels. Rob also noted that when BC Ferries submitted their PT-3 report to the Commissioner’s office, the report assumed that BC Ferries would replace both vessels with similar ones. He said that BC Ferries would prefer to consider replacing Burnaby and Queen of Nanaimo (NAN) with smaller vessels but is waiting to hear if government wishes to facilitate discussions for replacement options.

...Bill noted that the community has passed their recommendation to MOTI for vessel preferences in a meeting that happened earlier this year.

Rob noted that the target timeline for Burnaby/Nanaimo replacement vessels to enter service is approximately April 1, 2016…unless there are changes to the CFSC (Coastal Ferry Services Contract). He said that there has been no indication from the Province that they may fund these capital replacements.

[Neil]

Jan 13, 2012 11:19:56 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

Here's an example of the curernt uncertainty about the timing of vessel replacements:

- from the October 2011 Ferry-Advisory-Council meeting for Northern Sunshine Coast:

...BC Ferries continues to work under the assumption that unless told otherwise, the NIP and Burnaby will be replaced by ‘like-for-like’ (sufficient capacity to carry existing traffic, amenities and capabilities) vessels. Rob also noted that when BC Ferries submitted their PT-3 report to the Commissioner’s office, the report assumed that BC Ferries would replace both vessels with similar ones. He said that BC Ferries would prefer to consider replacing Burnaby and Queen of Nanaimo (NAN) with smaller vessels but is waiting to hear if government wishes to facilitate discussions for replacement options.

...Bill noted that the community has passed their recommendation to MOTI for vessel preferences in a meeting that happened earlier this year.

Rob noted that the target timeline for Burnaby/Nanaimo replacement vessels to enter service is approximately April 1, 2016…unless there are changes to the CFSC (Coastal Ferry Services Contract). He said that there has been no indication from the Province that they may fund these capital replacements.

This points out, again, the inconsistency between how we operate our ferry system and how we operate other transportation systems.

The province already demands that BC Ferries recover far more of their costs at the farebox than land based transit systems.

When we plan bridges, highways, or airports, we build expectations of future growth into them. None of these structures are ever built just to handle today's traffic.

Yet BC Ferries wants to replace ferries with ones that are no bigger, or in the case of the Queen of Burnaby, even smaller. Granted, ferry ridership is flat, and has been for a few years. However, it's ludicrous to expect this to continue forever, and these vessels are probably going to be constructed with a service life expectancy of about fifty years.

Very few people criticize the fact that the Golden Ears bridge is currently far under capacity. Why then show a complete lack of foresight in planning new ferries?

[Low Light Mike]

Jan 13, 2012 11:47:32 GMT -8 Neil said:

Why then show a complete lack of foresight in planning new ferries?

I'm dismayed at the lack of commitment by the Province to step-up and commit to the funding of a reasonable vessel-replacement plan.

How can BCFerries be expected to manage the next period of fleet renewal when the Province keeps them guessing on whether and when required vessel-replacements will be funded?
- We're becoming similar to our neighbours in Alaska and Washington where there is a real need for vessel replacement planning to start now, but the Government won't commit to anything......and so nothing can get done.

[gordon]

When it comes time to replace the Spirits, it will be interesting to see whether they are replaced with single enders(current spirits) or double enders. what does everyone think?

[Low Light Mike]

Jan 13, 2012 13:13:17 GMT -8 gordon said:

When it comes time to replace the Spirits, it will be interesting to see whether they are replaced with single enders(current spirits) or double enders. what does everyone think?

In the year 2043, I'll be 75 years old, if I'm still around.

- assuming that the Spirits have a 50-year life, that's when I'll know.

[glasseye]

Jan 13, 2012 11:47:32 GMT -8 Neil said:

This points out, again, the inconsistency between how we operate our ferry system and how we operate other transportation systems.

I think what you're observing here is more a matter that highways are given preferential treatment in BC rather than that the ferry service is given the short end of the stick.

I don't know if it's any different in the rest of the province, but in the Lower Mainland, all of our public infrastructure is built to serve yesterday's needs (much less today's) with no plans for future growth and no indication that planners even consider future needs important. The only exceptions to this rule are suburban highway projects.

[lmtengs]

Jan 13, 2012 13:52:59 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

Jan 13, 2012 13:13:17 GMT -8 gordon said:

When it comes time to replace the Spirits, it will be interesting to see whether they are replaced with single enders(current spirits) or double enders. what does everyone think?

I'll be 48! It will be a weird feeling at that time, knowing that the newbuilds built around that time could very well last longer than I will...

[Low Light Mike]

Here's the table from page 62 of the PT#3 submission by BCFS (done in September 2010).





- nothing has changed since this was submitted, simply because the Performance-Term #3 plan hasn't been approved (delayed by a year, because of the Coastal Ferry Act review that's soon to be released).

[Starsteward]

Oh you guys just had to get into the "do you remember when" pandora's box didn't you??
Here I was, drifting along this morning, watching the snow fall in the West-End when I'm rudely jolted back into the 'what I've seen and how long will I be on the right side of the grass until all the newbuilds are complete.
Having worked on the now departed Queens of Sechelt, Sidney and Prince Rupert, as well as the Queen of Burnaby, Queen of Nanaimo, 'mortality anxiety' is a definite possibily as one realizes that you have out-lived the entire life span of the ships listed.
Driving my 'mortality anxiety' attack even deeper is viewing the projected life spans of vessels built after 1980 and realizing that the list of ships I've outlived isn't likely to fill another page of foolscap, lol
The relationship between someones life-line vs. historical events is both educational, entertaining, joyous and even frightening depending on how one views his or her "best before date" as it were.
Thankfully, the time line conundrum is relevant to those of us who have had a fair bit of water pass under our keels, but don't try to explain that whole concept to young folks who have yet to get to the quarter century mark. They will just assume you're really old. Yikes

[Ferryman]

Todays news article regarding future ship replacements. It could be up to 8 years before the Nanaimo and Burnaby are replaced. Also, I know the C-Class are getting old, but to me it feels strange that it's getting to be time to replace them soon. Interesting times ahead for BC Ferries nonetheless.

www.canada.com/Upgrades+ferry+fleet+could+mean+higher+fares/6025065/story.html

Upgrades to ferry fleet could mean higher fares
Corporation has plans to spend $500 million
By Dustin Walker, Daily News January 20, 2012

[/b]

A B.C. Ferries plan to spend $500 million to replace 10 small and medium-sized ships could result in higher fares on some routes. The corporation is continuing with a fleet renewal plan that began in 2007 with the purchase of three new Coastal Class passenger ferries.

After replacing aging vessels along the major routes, B.C. Ferries is now focusing on its small and "intermediate" ships. A number of these vessels are nearing or have already exceeded the average 40-year lifespan for passenger ferries.

The company has indicated it wants to purchase the new ships during the next eight years, but it won't yet reveal on which routes they will sail.

B.C. Ferries will also be looking to replace the aging C-Class ferries, several of which ply the waters between Nanaimo and Vancouver, in about a decade.

But buying new ferries will bring a hefty price tag at a time when the corporation is struggling with declining passenger numbers and rising costs. The $500 million needed for the replacement of the vessels would most likely be funded by a combination of fare increases and provincial funding.

Exactly what kind of impact this plan would have on fares hasn't been determined yet. However, if one route gets a new ship, any subsequent increase in fares would be shared among the entire route group.

"We have to have discussions with the government as to what level they would be willing to fund," said Deborah Marshall, spokeswoman for B.C. Ferries.

B.C. Ferries does a detailed cost analysis and engineering assessment of each vessel before deciding whether or not to replace it. Ships that are more than 40 years old and have already received their mid-life upgrades are more likely to be retired and replaced.

Marshall said the company has identified what ships are next on the list for replacement but won't release any firm details yet.

"We're identifying things internally, but we want to develop our final plan first before we go public with it," she said.

Marshall mentioned that the Queen of Burnaby, a 192-vehicle ferry that runs the Powell RiverComox route, and the Queen of Nanaimo, which travels the Southern Gulf IslandsTsawwassen route, are examples of vessels that would be considered for replacement within the next eight years.

"They're just getting at a place where they are outliving their useful life," she said.

Wayne McIntyre, a member of the Saltspring Island Ferry Advisory Council, is glad the 48-year-old Queen of Nanaimo may be replaced.

However, he added that fares along the Southern Gulf Islands-Tsawwassen route are already too high.

"The fare increases have pretty much reached their maximum," said McIntyre.

"There's a definite dropoff in passengers. They can come up with all kind of reasons for it, but there's no doubt that part of it is the higher fares."

Marshall said that once the 10 new small and medium-sized ships are purchased, B.C. Ferries will look at replacing the CClass passenger ferries that run between Vancouver Island and Vancouver.

These ferries include the Queen of Oak Bay, which returned to service Sunday after mechanical failure put it out of commission for two days.

A number of sailings out of Nanaimo were cancelled as a result.

Len Roueche, CEO of Interferry, which represents the ferry industry, said that B.C. Ferries has made great progress through the years replacing aging vessels.

"In terms of safety, more important than age of a vessel is how it was built, how it has been maintained and how and where it is operated. In terms of global comparisons, B.C. Ferries rates highly on all three factors," he said.

Marshall said there is no timeline for when B.C. Ferries will be announcing the replacement of any vessels.

[e-mail] 250-729-4244 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 250-729-4244 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
We want to hear from you. Send comments on this story to [e-mail]. Letters must include daytime phone number and hometown.

QUEEN OF OAK BAY

Built: 1981

Car capacity: 360 including 12 semis

Passengers and crew: 1,494

Route: Horseshoe Bay-Departure Bay

This vessel returned to its route on Sunday after being out of service for two days following mechanical failure. The Queen of Oak Bay is part of the C-class ferries, the oldest of the major vessels.

QUEEN OF COWICHAN

Built: 1976

Car capacity: 360, including 12 semis

Passengers and crew: 1,494

Route: Departure Bay-Horseshoe Bay

Part of the C-class vessels, B.C. Ferries will look at replacing the Queen of Cowichan in about a decade when it will have exceeded the average 40-year life expectancy for passenger ferries.

QUEEN OF COQUITLAM

Built: 1976

Car capacity: 360, including 12 semis

Passengers and crew: 1,494

Route: Horseshoe Bay-Departure Bay

This C-class vessel went through a major upgrade in 2002. It could be replaced in a decade.

QUEEN OF SURREY

Built: 1981

Car capacity: 360, including 12 semis

Passengers and crew: 1,494

Route: Langdale-Horseshoe Bay

In 2003, the vessel required extensive emergency repairs. As part of the C-class ferries, the Queen of Surrey will be contender for replacement in about a decade.

QUEEN OF NEW WESTMINSTER

Built: 1964

Car capacity: 270

Passengers and crew: 1,332

Route: Tsawwassen-Swartz Bay

Although this vessel exceeds the average 40-year life expectancy, it will likely stay in operation until B.C. Ferries has replaced the Queen of Nanaimo and the Queen of Burnaby.

QUEEN OF NANAIMO

Built: 1964

Car capacity: 192

Passengers and crew: 1,004

Route: Southern Gulf Islands-Tsawwassen

This vessel could be among the 10 vessels that will be replaced by B.C. Ferries over the next eight years.

QUEEN OF BURNABY

Built: 1965

Car capacity: 192

Passengers and crew: 904

Route: Powell River-Comox

This vessel could be among the 10 vessels that will be replaced by B.C. Ferries during the next eight years.

COMPILED BY DUSTIN WALKER

© Copyright (c) Postmedia News
[/size][/quote]

[Low Light Mike]

Jan 20, 2012 11:57:10 GMT -8 Ferryman said:

Todays news article regarding future ship replacements. It could be up to 8 years before the Nanaimo and Burnaby are replaced. Also, I know the C-Class are getting old, but to me it feels strange that it's getting to be time to replace them soon. Interesting times ahead for BC Ferries nonetheless.

I saw this article this morning, and it puzzled me. There's no basis for writing this article now; ie. no new news from BCF and no recently released reports/plans on vessel replacement.

As far as I can tell, the PT#3 submission (from October 2010) is the most recent official plan that BCF has issued re vessel-replacement.

Articles like this make me shake my head, wondering if there was a news-release or Government report that I've recently missed (I haven't, because I just checked again this morning).
- It's almost like the writer chooses a topic and starts writing. And the result is just more confusion for the general population.

And considering that the entire structure of BCFerries (or at least the Government's relation to it) is going to be big-news next week, I wonder about the relevancy of this here article.

I of course wrote a detailed "reader comment" to the story this morning, linking to the PT#3 vessel-chart, but the Daily News didn't include my comment on their website.

[DENelson83]

www.canada.com/Upgrades+ferry+fleet+could+mean+higher+fares/6025065/story.html

"A B.C. Ferries plan to spend $500 million to replace 10 small and medium-sized ships could result in higher fares on some routes. The corporation is continuing with a fleet renewal plan that began in 2007 with the purchase of three new Coastal Class passenger ferries."

Edit: Oops... I didn't notice someone else had already posted this article above. Sorry.

[Low Light Mike]

Jan 20, 2012 12:06:15 GMT -8 DENelson83 said:

www.canada.com/Upgrades+ferry+fleet+could+mean+higher+fares/6025065/story.html

"A B.C. Ferries plan to spend $500 million to replace 10 small and medium-sized ships could result in higher fares on some routes. The corporation is continuing with a fleet renewal plan that began in 2007 with the purchase of three new Coastal Class passenger ferries."

Same news story as FerryMan posted above.

Strange headline - there is no "plan to spend $500 million...." that BCFerries has released.

What a strange piece of journalism. No source of information cited (because there is none).

....and even ferry forum members are thinking this is news. It's not news.

;D

[mrdot]

:)It troubles me greatly when I think how all governments will deal with vessel replacements, just repairing potholes in our roadways will be a significant challenge! are we going to see traditional funding of any gov't functions radically change, and new so called private ventures and sudo-gov't con jobs! like the wonderful job mainroad contracting does, I just hope significant claw backs on my pension are not just round the corner, my free ferry days are numbered! :)mrdot.

[mrdot]

:)yeah, I am excedingly glad that I stayed with the less flashy position I held for years, instead of going for the big bucks and risky positions I could have done! I don't have the gold plated deal that hahn and the political realm enjoy, but am thankful for what I do have! :)mrdot.

[Neil]

The best laid plans of mice and ferry companies...

An example of how altered replacement schedules are nothing new for BC Ferries. This 'Employee Update' also mentioned that detailed design work for the Queen of Prince Rupert's replacement was to begin in October of '94, with commissioning to take place in December '96.

(Can't remember if or where I've posted this before.)

[WettCoast]

Jan 20, 2012 12:04:27 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

Jan 20, 2012 11:57:10 GMT -8 Ferryman said:

Todays news article regarding future ship replacements. It could be up to 8 years before the Nanaimo and Burnaby are replaced. Also, I know the C-Class are getting old, but to me it feels strange that it's getting to be time to replace them soon. Interesting times ahead for BC Ferries nonetheless.

I saw this article this morning, and it puzzled me. There's no basis for writing this article now; ie. no new news from BCF and no recently released reports/plans on vessel replacement.

Could it be that this 'journalism', like that put out by Kieth Baldrey late in December, is nothing but 'up front' damage control being put out by government-friendly journalists in advance of the bad news that is surely coming with respect to this 'private company' mess created by the BC Liberals in 2003.

The governments must know that much of the fleet is very much due for replacement. Costs will be enormous and funding such via massive fare increases will simply drive ridership even lower, and severely hit ferry-dependant communities. Another alternative is a massive subsidy increase from the BC Government, from a nest of money that they don't actually have, not without going deeper into the pockets of BC's tax payers. The only other possible alternative would be to maintain the status quo, barely patching up old boats, and continuing to increase fares at levels above the rate of inflation. That leads to having to operate vessels that fail to meet minimum safety standards and ever decreasing ridership.

[Neil]

The question is, where did the initiative for the story come from? Did the Nanaimo Daily News just decide on a whim to do a story on ferry replacement? There are quotes from Deborah Marshall in it, although one might expect Mike Corrigan or someone else higher than Ms Marshall to be commenting, if there was real substance here.

Last fall, David Hahn tried to spell out in very clear letters the shape of things to come for BC Ferries if the relationship with government, and the subsidy level, remained the same. I wonder if this is part of that.

I'm not sure I agree with White Coast about the government knowing a good part of the fleet is due for replacement. I think there's been a willful blindness in Victoria to fares and other issues surrounding BC Ferries, since 2003.

[mrdot]

:)I don't know who in gov't would not have known that most of the fleet needed replacement, but never mind, we have the mold, in these new ikea ferries, over to the fatherland, do you hear! :)mrdot.

[Deleted]

I would love to see that vessel in the near future.


[/quote]

The one that I just post

====================


[moderator edit to unclutter by combining 3 posts into 1]

[lmtengs]

Jun 19, 2012 19:49:02 GMT -8 @cheese12345678 said:

I would love to see that vessel in the near future.

Which vessel? You can quote a post you're replying to by clicking 'quote' on the upper righthand side of the post, then replying underneath the quoted post in the reply box that pops up. That way we can all tell which post you're referring to, and it makes it easier for all of us