Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Feb 19, 2010 15:39:54 GMT -8
When I was referring to the economic conditions I was meaning that in BC with BCF and TransLink there is little chance a private operator can ever operate at a profit as the traveling public have been conditioned to expect subsidized ferry transport. So it if virtually impossible to charge a fare that will pay the bills. Any private service is bound to fail until that condition changes. Well, let's hope "that condition" never does change. BC Ferries is our marine transit system, and a subsidized transit system is essential to the health of coastal communities. Virtually every domestic ferry system and every land transit system that I'm aware of is subsidized, so private ferry entrepreneurs may as well get used to the reality. The public wants it, and it's what we need to function as a society. I know there's a mindset among business types that you should always admire someone who's willing to put their own money on the line in a business venture, and I agree... to a point. In the case of CLF, it wasn't just one person's money on the line; others were also at risk, and it's possible that the chances of success were not represented entirely accurately to the second party. Also, I would suggest that to start a passenger ferry service to a tiny market like Bowen Island without due diligence, and days after another party started a similar service, was not daring or entrepreneurial; it was simply foolish, and foolish doesn't rate admiration in my book. Now that the house of cards has come tumbling down, you're seeing blatant misrepresentations of how the business was going being regurgitated by gullible reporters. Is this an attempt to colour the prospects to future investors? One hopes not. Memo to fargowolf: I already posted that story.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 19, 2010 18:00:19 GMT -8
Since she has now been identified, if Anne Chow does intend on using the Coastal Runner in a ferry operation, I hope she has been on the ball and taking note of the mistakes made, the things the public has been critical of and indeed some of the comments made on the forum.
I am perhaps naiive but why would a court allow a seizure of a vessel if payments were up to date, on time and on budget? Just askin.
Going forward the mortgage holder would have two main options. 1. Cut your losses and sell the Runner for as much money as possible to recoup some of your lost investment. 2. Or run the Vessel on some run to begin to generate funds (downside is you may even lose some more money in the process).
It will be fascinating to see, now that another character is in charge of the operations, whether more successful negotiating will take place regarding Gibson's, a better dock and cooperation in Vancouver, etc.
It is interesting to see how things have transpired. I took a dim view to the methods of a former early poster, even while saying I didn't necessarily take issue with the actual points. Out of interest, perhaps morbid, I would love to see just one post from that former poster of the current events. He was rather virulent then. Now I would imagine he would be almost nuclear in his response. Just one mind you ;D.
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Post by landlocked on Feb 20, 2010 11:00:37 GMT -8
I feel it is necessary to weigh in on this discussion.
Capt. George makes some valid points with respect to being able to criticize when you have never put anything on the line as an armchair quarterback. Having said that we should look at CLF in a very reflective fashion.
Here's a company that built a boat to provide transportation to a segment of the market travelling to and from the Sunshine Coast. This very spartan and inexpensively finished boat resembles an unpainted yellow school bus for all intents and purposes. How attractive would it be for folks in BC to consider walking on a ferry as a foot passenger with the only options either on board (Pacific Coach or Greyhound) or conversely the Blue Bus fleet, if when they wanted to complete their journey, it was a yellow school bus waiting for them? The Coastal Runner competed with the Queen of Surrey, a large, comfortable ship with all the amenities imaginable for their journey. Tough to compete with.
Let's look at fares. The Langdale route pricing is cheap beyond belief. How can CLF compete?
When CLF got underway, did they ever do origin/destination studies? While there may be a large number of potential passengers on a given run can you divert their destination from Horseshoe Bay by vehicle to downtown Vancouver on foot? How many of the large number of commuters will you actually attract with your foot ferry to downtown Vancouver? Where do they need to go from there? Will they switch to your service?
Personally, I believe that CLF was doomed from the start. The projections, the market research, the costs of gaining access to terminals was never carefully scrutinized and put into the business plans. Simply building a project and excpecting 'them to come' is simply not good enough today.
Personally, I don't know what the lender, if it is in fact Ann Chow, will do with the Coastal Runner. I certainly would never buy the ugly little duckling, so who else would? Perhaps some of the camps up Howe Sound should pool their resources to buy her for summertime use only. Who knows.
As far as Ihab is concerned, have we ever met anyone who seems to never be able to tell the truth quite like him?
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Post by fargowolf on Feb 24, 2010 19:27:02 GMT -8
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Feb 26, 2010 10:36:55 GMT -8
The company may be kaput, but the b.s. continues... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Coast Link Ferries vessel seized February 26,2010 Brent Richter/Staff Writer A dispute with the company’s lender over mortgage payments has caused Coastal Link Ferries (CLF) to halt its regular runs from Bowen Island and West Vancouver to downtown Vancouver. CLF captain Ihab Shaker, who had been trying to extend his runs to the Sunshine Coast, said his private lender, a numbered company, obtained a court order to seize the Coastal Runner last week while he was attempting to negotiate a loan extension and arrange for a new commercial loan. Graham Walker, the lawyer representing the lender, said the company has serious concerns about whether it can collect the money it is owed. “I can say as a matter of public record, it is owed in excess of $650,000, so this is not an insignificant matter for it to have to grapple with,” he said. “Our position is the mortgage is in default. This was a necessary measure to take in order to protect the mortgagee’s investment in the vessel.” Shaker denied ever failing to make payments. “We had an agreement for one year. During that year, I paid in full, on time. I was never, ever short or late,” he said. Shaker said he does not know what will happen to CLF in the meantime or if he will be able to resume runs or extend trips to the Sunshine Coast. He added that it was a “no win” situation to seize the boat while it was fully booked during the Olympics. Walker said the two most likely courses of action now are either negotiation or selling the boat. www.coastreporter.net/article/20100226/SECHELT0101/302269980/-1/SECHELT/coast-link-ferries-vessel-seized---------------------------------------------------------------------- So the boat was "fully booked" during the Olympics. This, despite the fact that CLF didn't take reservations. Also, English Bay Launch, which now does the single Snug Cove to Bute Street run that CLF had, has not added any Bowen service, and did not pick up any of the West Van service that CLF had said they were going to offer during the Olympics, which tells you all you need to know about how "fully booked" they were. The story mentions the possibility of the Coastal Runner being sold, which casts doubt on the prospects of the mortgage holder resurrecting a service with new operators.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 26, 2010 11:32:02 GMT -8
CLF captain Ihab Shaker, who had been trying to extend his runs to the Sunshine Coast, said his private lender, a numbered company, obtained a court order to seize the Coastal Runner last week while he was attempting to negotiate a loan extension and arrange for a new commercial loan. Graham Walker, the lawyer representing the lender, said the company has serious concerns about whether it can collect the money it is owed. “I can say as a matter of public record, it is owed in excess of $650,000, so this is not an insignificant matter for it to have to grapple with,” he said. “Our position is the mortgage is in default. This was a necessary measure to take in order to protect the mortgagee’s investment in the vessel.” Shaker denied ever failing to make payments. “We had an agreement for one year. During that year, I paid in full, on time. I was never, ever short or late,” he said. Shaker keeps on talking about not missing any payments. The lender keeps on talking about how the mortgage was up for renewal. It's apples and oranges. Regardless of whether old payments were fully made on the old mortgage, the mortgage became due (in full) a while ago, once the original term expired. It appears that upon maturity, the lender asked to be paid in full, instead of being willing to negotiate a new mortgage term. That's the lender's right. It appears that CLF was unable to pay in full when the mortgage balance was due, and that's why the security was repossessed. It's called "Calling the loan" and a lender can do that at the end of the term. The lender doesn't have to agree to a new term of payments.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Feb 26, 2010 16:31:40 GMT -8
Why would he need a "loan extension"? Not a good thing to do. A loan extension and negotiating for a new commerical loan at the same time is a recipe for disaster. Pay the first one back first and then submit financial reports for the next, but companies running on loans without much profitabilty aren't going to last long. One company I was with was almost running on their lines of credit, a fast route to disaster and that was the destination reached. Exactly. Chances are he got the loan from this party because mainstream lenders chose not to deal with this venture. I'm not sure this is just a matter of the lender calling the loan after the term, either; Anne Chow's lawyer refers to several missed payments, and the year term seems to have been up last fall. Any potential new lender would- I'm assuming- be aware that they were dealing with someone who had been unsuccessful in negotiating dock leases with the Sunshine Coast Regional District, the Gibson Landing Harbour Authority, and Translink. As well, from what I've personally observed, and from what I've been told by regular customers and people with company connections, his Bowen run couldn't have been generating any more than $8000 or so a month, before any wages or costs are taken into account, and with very little sign of growth. Let's back up a bit to the announcement a few weeks back of the Gibsons service, taking into account information we've received since then. Shaker's email stated that a Hopkins Landing dock lease had been arranged with the SCRD, when in fact no deal had been made, and the SCRD subsequently refused him usage of the dock. He announced parking at BC Ferries' Langdale compound, when he had no permission to do so, and BC Ferries later stated such an arrangement was not possible. He announced that there would be one vessel serving Gibsons, while the Coastal Runner would continue to serve Bowen, when in fact he had no second vessel, and he was in virtual default on paying for the one he had. In short, a service was announced which had no basis in reality. Then, take into account the pronouncements about operating in the black, being "fully booked", and experiencing dynamic growth. To what purpose were all these announcements made? There's a picture emerging here, and it doesn't look all that pretty. Billable Hours, I think you were just way ahead of us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2010 18:09:56 GMT -8
So, now that CLF is having a breather, maybe.
What advice would the members of this forum have for an future company that would wish to try the same?
With the same boat?
Can it be done?
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Post by Ferryman on Mar 25, 2010 18:30:24 GMT -8
Better advertising. Radio ads, and possibly TV ads to get the word out a little better. Also, more importantly, more sailings. The more that people hear about it and see it, the better chance they'll wind up using it one day. Obviously it was setup more as a "commuter service", however I think there will be a pretty good amount of tourists in town this summer now that the Olympics are done. So maybe they should try and market towards the tourists, especially during the summer months. No tourist is going to want to catch the one and only 5:00pm sailing (or whatever it was) to Bowen Island, and then return at 6:00am the next morning. Indian Arm has some spectacular views as well as Howe Sound. Some day cruises might even help. Weekends should also be considered too, I always thought it was a real shame seeing the Coastal Runner tied to the dock for the weekend. So much opportunity I see, but obviously easier said than done.
Just my two cents....
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Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 25, 2010 19:00:37 GMT -8
My general advice is a number of often heard marketing/customer service axioms that seem to inexplicably be forgotten when someone launches a new business/service and gets mired in the myriad of details. I will leave it to the reader to make any connection or not to Coastal Link but obviously I will pick and choose what I am suggesting here because there are a ton of options. 1. Under promise and over deliver. In other words don't say "nuttin" until it is rock solid and then don't let the hyperbole make you exaggerate. People smell that out instantly and then discount everything you say. 2. It takes a long time to build a solid brand for a product or service, and a couple dumb moves to ruin your brand. A wise mentor told me it is easy to trip into the ditch it takes tremendous energy to climb back out when you are stuck in mud. 3. Honest mistakes will be overlooked if you handle them right and keep them to a minimum. In other words come clean immediately, with honestly and build trust. A mistake can be a huge learning experience and actually strengthen your relationship with your customer. Once you made that mistake learn from it and don't EVER make it a second time. Ie. If you screw up give someone a week's free trips or whatever is appropriate. Be generous. Give a free trip instead of a refund so you have an opportunity to change the person`s opinion. 4. Treat your customer as pure gold not as a necessary evil to be endured. Bend over backwards for them without becoming a patsy. Know when to be firm and when to accomodate. Greet them by name and look them in the eye. Remember personal details they tell you - like their kids big baseball game. And ask them about it the next time you see them. Personal good will can be a powerful cure when you make a mistake. If you aren't a people person, either learn to be or find someone who is who will be your face person. Then trust that person enough to tell you really what people are thinking. And if you aren`t a people person - keep quiet and away from the day to day. 5. Build such a kick donkey service that it sells itself and then let people tell your story for you. Their words are ten times more powerful than your own. To do this you have to do all the above of course. 6. There are some people that are poison pills. Put some effort into turning them around. However, realize that they will always sow dissent, spread negativity and despite you doing everything right, will never be satisfied. IF you can turn them around they will be the most powerful and loyal advocate. However, learn very quickly when you should end the efforts. Thank them for their business and firmly but politely tell them the match with your service isn't there and to please use the competitor. I have seen people back down at that late stage and turn into great customers. Most of the time they stomp off and take their venom elsewhere. 7. Make your marketing consistant, well thought out and make all the details correct before you go public. No spelling, grammar, or other simple mistakes - EVER. Simple and correct is better than complex and wrong. Take an extra couple of minutes to get it right rather than rush and do it wrong. Hire professionals whenever you can. If you can`t afford them then find a way to ensure you can. My only direct reference to Coastal Link would be with the vessel itself. I have never even seen it in person, nor obviously have taken a trip. In all the pictures and descriptions I have seen of it, a school bus on the water is the one that seems to resonate with me. For not a lot of more money, I think some of that impression could have been alleviated and the comfort factor improved. In a climate like BC, dry, warm and clear are the descriptors you want people repeating not cold, damp and foggy. I won`t pontificate any more. As I have said often, I think viable options are needed for transportation. Despite the challenges that other operators have faced and in addition any problems they created themselves, I still think there is a need for a service that people would support, as long as the conditions were right.
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Mar 25, 2010 19:13:46 GMT -8
I could see it work as a commuter alternative with the proper leadership. We saw so many examples of poor business management that it's really a wonder that they stayed afloat (no pun intended...) as long as they did. Things to improve: - Better communication with customers. How many times was the boat canceled at late notice? I wonder how many people were stuck at the dock without a ride at some point.
- Better advertisement. The Coastal Link website was an atrocity to honest marketers everywhere. I'd be willing to bet that doing things like advertising that there was a cafeteria on board, making comfort claims that are blown over the top, and making the boat out to be much more than it is were major factors in the lack of ridership. Captain Shaker's dealings with the media left much to be desired as well.
- Better organization. The whole almost-2-year CLF episode seemed to be haphazard at best. Announcing service to Gibsons without even having a docking agreement in place was the first of many missteps in this regard. If somebody else was to attempt something like this, they would have to make sure they had everything lined up ready to go BEFORE making an announcement. Just expecting everything to fall into place "once the boat hits the water" is NOT the way to run a profitable business. Docking agreements, TC inspections, crew hiring and training are all things that take time and potentially cause delays. I think the service would be better received by their potential customers if they were seen to be reliable and trustworthy.
Personally, I do think that there is a viable commuter market for something like this, both from Bowen and from Gibsons. Somebody with a glimmer of business sense might have a better chance of making a go of it. I think the bottom line is that the service must be RELIABLE, especially if it is marketed to commuters. I know I would not want to have the chance of being left behind on the dock (and late for a meeting) because there wasn't enough people showing up to make the run break even.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Mar 25, 2010 19:19:36 GMT -8
So, now that CLF is having a breather, maybe. What advice would the members of this forum have for an future company that would wish to try the same? With the same boat? Can it be done? Are you asking about their stillborn Gibsons service, or their Bowen run?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2010 20:16:12 GMT -8
So, now that CLF is having a breather, maybe. What advice would the members of this forum have for an future company that would wish to try the same? With the same boat? Can it be done? Are you asking about their stillborn Gibsons service, or their Bowen run? Either or both. It is interesting to read other opinions.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 1, 2010 16:39:15 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 6, 2010 10:21:01 GMT -8
Some recent law-court items for the MV Coastal Runner: from here: cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/IndexingQueries/infp_RE_info_e.php?court_no=T-179-10--------------- A few highlights of the chronology from the above link: ------------------ So it appears that the Coastal Runner is being sold? Or is this just the transfer of ownership from Coastal Link Ferries to the lender? Whatever it means, there were court proceeding on the Friday before Labour Day. - stay tuned to the above link, in case there are more court items in the days to come.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Sept 6, 2010 12:38:12 GMT -8
My understanding orginally was that the mortgage holder had caused the vessel to be arrested and was going to take possession. There was talk of her running it still as a passenger ferry. If that is still correct, the court has formalized taking the vessel in lieu of payment. However, there also may have been a change of mind, and the vessel will now be auctioned or sold and the person holding the mortgage just wants as much money as can be recovered. What may have changed things, is whether better docking facilities and a better route arranged. If discussions on either front have not progressed to a reasonable state, then even with better customer service I question whether a long term future is possible given the boat and public opinion that has been built up about it. Uncomfortable, cold and damp won't change unless physical modifications are possible. It will be interesting what surfaces next. *A quick search of the vessel after posting the above, reveals a couple more interesting items. If you care to take the time to read the original post there are affidavits filed that name the individuals involved and you may be able to deduce who the mortgage holder was . Pacific Mermaid Ship Builders vs. Coastal Runner et Al, filed in July. Which would lead me to believe either the original shipyard did not receive full payment or was a part mortgage holder in the vessel or held a lien. cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/IndexingQueries/infp_moreInfo_e.php?T-1218-10And it is possible that Ihab has registered a counter suit in July as well. That may or may not be the motion that was dismissed in the orginal link.
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 6, 2010 12:50:28 GMT -8
If it is indeed being sold, is there a chance of BC Ferries buying the 'Runner, then contracting it out to some outside operater for the route that it last served?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 1, 2010 20:25:59 GMT -8
The things that you see, if you walk on the Union Steamship floats at Snug Cove: - some memorabilia: A couple of legal notices:
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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 3, 2010 17:34:34 GMT -8
I visited Bowen Island on Oct.1, 2010. It wasn't until the very end of my visit that I noticed the vessel Coastal Runner at the old Union wharf. - that vessel wasn't even on my radar (mental plans for trip or visuals during my Bowen arrival) as I planned and enjoyed a fun day trip to Bowen. After enjoying a waffle-cone of ice cream at the taco/ice-cream shop beside the north wharf, I was surprised to see the Coastal Runner at the wharf. So I took a closer look: ---------------- She's at the old Union wharf, on the north-side of the BCF berth. Right where she used to operate from... ....as I peer into the vessel cabin, my view is part-reflection of the ships on the wharf beside me, and part interior of the 'Runner. - she looks like she was abandoned in haste, with all the "welcome-aboard cards" on each table. (the card photo is shown in previous post). The port-side of the bridge. The view from the departing Queen of Capilano:
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Post by Dane on Dec 29, 2010 0:47:03 GMT -8
Since Flugel's visit on 1 Oct, and Christmas Day 2010 the chain on the Coastal Runner has been removed. There is also visible signs of limited preventative work to minimize water damage in the interior from leaking window seals.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Jun 20, 2011 13:25:16 GMT -8
The Coastal Runner is for sale. In the June Western Mariner, Blackfish Marine Luxury Yacht Sales has her listed for $499,000, supposedly down from $799,000.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 20, 2011 13:38:40 GMT -8
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Post by Scott on Jun 20, 2011 19:48:11 GMT -8
Doesn't half a million dollars seem like a lot for a little boat like that? As most know, the Queen of Vancouver is currently for sale for $725,000 (http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/boa/2415199288.html) and that's probably even more than she's worth. The Coastal Runner could almost be her lifeboat and is for sale for 2/3 the price.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Jun 20, 2011 21:09:07 GMT -8
Doesn't half a million dollars seem like a lot for a little boat like that? As most know, the Queen of Vancouver is currently for sale for $725,000 (http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/boa/2415199288.html) and that's probably even more than she's worth. The Coastal Runner could almost be her lifeboat and is for sale for 2/3 the price. But John, we're talking about a boat skippered by the legendary Ihab Shaker. Kind of like buying the boat that Bogie captained in African Queen. A bargain at twice the price.
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Post by yvrman on Nov 27, 2011 9:13:03 GMT -8
Coastal Link's website has been "down" since yesterday. coastallinkferries.com/I keep wondering when the plug will be pulled on the Bowen run. Maybe this is just a computer glitch, or maybe... Who knows? I suppose their 10 regular passengers know the schedule and don't need the website. Pretty hard to minimize the Bowen Island ferries when there are a lot of political retirees living on the island who will protect their subsidized priviledge at any cost to the taxpayers of bc ...check out a list of "who is who" that lives on Bowen Island and you will see a political elite living there ... Nuff said !
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