Coastal Link Ferries

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Jun 9, 2008 12:29:49 GMT -8 @coastallink said:

Hi Hardy,

Sorry about the confusion on the Troll issue. I like to keep an open door for people to ask anything, and address anything. I understand, now that you explained it, how it applied to that poster (v).

Lots to share on those Hydrofoils.....the ones we ran on Lake Ontario. I need to find you those TSB links - I was on one in August, 1998 when we were transporting the Ontario Minister of Tourism and 2 members of his staff, the crew and 3 others from Shaker Cruise Lines being the only other passengers. I was among them. We encountered an unexpected wave pattern and a 7' wave crashed in the portside forward window. We nearly sank, and became the #2 story in Canada that day. We required Coast Guard assistance and eventually made it to port....the Minister of Tourism praised our crew and the story was much sunnier than it should have been. The irony is that the cost of replacing the Minister and his staff's clothes (ruined by running orange dye from Russian lifevests) was greater than repairs to the ship.

Oh, and the number one story that day? Bill Clinton & Monica Lewinski. It figures, my chance to be number one is sunk by a stain on a dress and a cigar.

And Ihab Shaker has been talking about Nanaimo, but as I said, that's going to require much different equipment. I asked him the other day when I'll be moving to Nanaimo.

Take care

lol...oh, it was the day for the story of stains it sounds like ;D

[Guest 101]

Peter,

I noticed in one report about your proposed new service, that the Gibson people also mention another company - but of course no names,.... where also looking at a service.

How far along are you - and this other company, where do you see them in relation to your operation?

How are we doing on the pictures of the vessel?

Do you have crew numbers yet?

Will you join the CFOA ? (Canadian Ferry Operators Associations)

I am not sure if you require a "License" from the Province to operate as a Ferry business - in the past you didn't - but now that we have Martin Crilly - Commissioner - will you come under his power and therefore pay a fee?

Thanks,

[Deleted]

Howdy Guest, and everyone else, some answers:

As to the "other company" mentioned by the GLHA rep, I haven't the foggiest. An individual who considered something actually contacted us, he is from the east Coast of the US. No vessel, nothing concrete. But if it isn't him, I don't know who it is.

If there is another company, I firmly believe that competition is good for any market. "A rising ocean floats all boats" is something I believed long before I moved near the ocean.

I have to travel to Mapleridge to get updated photos - I'm told it's in the Fraser River (upright).

Crew numbers i leave to Captain Shaker, I won't hazard a guess because anything I say can and will be held against me.

We most certainly will be joining the CFOA when we are up and running. This type of networking is invaluable to us. We are also joining a plethora of Tourism and Transportation organziations for that same purpose. I asked about NATO and they told me we'd have to have a 20mm deck gun fitted, then patrol the Straits of Denmark, so we declined.

And, finally, we require Certification from Transport Canada, and the usual Business Operating Licenses authorized by the various municipalities where we do business (dock,sell tickets, etc). Gibsons, Vancouver, etc.

Martin Crilly is the new Translink Honcho, right? We would likely lease a dock from them, or the Port of Vancouver, so we will "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's". I was speaking with a CBC reporter yesterday about that very issue - all I can say is that we will operate as a reliable and ethical business and as long as we do what we say, there isn't much to worry about........I would assume that Mr. Crilly's experience with BC ferries will be a benefit to Translink and to operators like us.

....and Nanaimo has become a much, much more important target.

"Just watch me"
Pierre Elliott Trudeau, Ihab Shaker, and anybody on You-Tube

[Guest 101]

Peter,

Martin Crilly is the Ferry Commissioner. There is an opening for a assistant ferry commissioner.

The fee - license I talked about was in running a ferry business in the Province of BC - a part from the normal TC reg's you require and the local licenses from say Gibson.....In the past and up to 2003 - there wasn't a license fee for a ferry business, but then the new post of Ferry Commissioner came into being - hence my mention of a fee - as BC Ferries pay one - which actually funds the Office of the Ferry Commissioner.

I trust that clears it up on that quesation.

Thanks,

[Canadian documantary]

Does anyone else have a concern in the sense that the Coast has a great thing going, by having a free ferry to go to Vancouver with BC ferries. This just crossed my mind but since BC ferries is privatly operated would'nt competition give them a reason to start charging us to leave the coast?

I mean otherwise wouldn't people walk on at Langdale and come back with Coastal link? Wouldnt that give Langdale a reason to start charging too? Eitherway I dont know much about the ferry business i just like the convienance of going to Vancouver for free. I dont want to pay more than I am now. Good luck!

[cohocatcher]

Time and convenience. If I lived in Gibsons and worked in downtown Vancouver and I did as you have suggested, I would have to get from HB to work.
For public buses that will cost $3.75 per trip, and I for one would not be wanting to come into Vancouver on a bus from there during rush hour. The trip into town would take at least half an hour, if everything clicked perfectly.
Plus, I would hate to be standing in a long lineup for a bus on a cold, windy, and wet morning during the winter.
Instead, I'd pay the extra few dollars and get deposited right into Vancouver.

[Low Light Mike]

Jun 12, 2008 15:10:20 GMT -8 @Canadian documantary said:

I mean otherwise wouldn't people walk on at Langdale and come back with Coastal link? Wouldnt that give Langdale a reason to start charging too?

Now that's some smart thinking. Great question there.

I wonder if the lure of a Gibsons "townsite" departure (vs driving/walking down the hill to Langdale) would make the paid trip via Coastal worth it? And couple that with the time savings re not having to take the transit bus from Horseshoe Bay to Downtown Vancouver........

Would you still travel via BC Ferry & translink to get from Gibsons to Downtown Vancouver?

[Ferryman]

Jun 12, 2008 15:10:20 GMT -8 @Canadian documantary said:

Does anyone else have a concern in the sense that the Coast has a great thing going, by having a free ferry to go to Vancouver with BC ferries. This just crossed my mind but since BC ferries is privatly operated would'nt competition give them a reason to start charging us to leave the coast?

I mean otherwise wouldn't people walk on at Langdale and come back with Coastal link? Wouldnt that give Langdale a reason to start charging too? Eitherway I dont know much about the ferry business i just like the convienance of going to Vancouver for free. I dont want to pay more than I am now. Good luck!

Ay, but the trip isn't free though. The fare you pay at Horseshoe Bay is considered to be a "return fare", which means it covers you for a trip in either direction. The fare is about the same as what it costs to go to Nanaimo, yet the Langdale route is half the length of crossing time, as the trip to Nanaimo. So a round trip on the Langdale route is equivalent to one way on the Nanaimo route. The fare you pay at Horseshoe Bay, also covers a one way trip on the Earls Cove to Saltery Bay route. Vice versa when coming from Saltery Bay.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Jun 12, 2008 19:14:03 GMT -8 Ferryman said:

Jun 12, 2008 15:10:20 GMT -8 @Canadian documantary said:

Does anyone else have a concern in the sense that the Coast has a great thing going, by having a free ferry to go to Vancouver with BC ferries. This just crossed my mind but since BC ferries is privatly operated would'nt competition give them a reason to start charging us to leave the coast?

I mean otherwise wouldn't people walk on at Langdale and come back with Coastal link? Wouldnt that give Langdale a reason to start charging too? Eitherway I dont know much about the ferry business i just like the convienance of going to Vancouver for free. I dont want to pay more than I am now. Good luck!

Ay, but the trip isn't free though. The fare you pay at Horseshoe Bay is considered to be a "return fare", which means it covers you for a trip in either direction. The fare is about the same as what it costs to go to Nanaimo, yet the Langdale route is half the length of crossing time, as the trip to Nanaimo. So a round trip on the Langdale route is equivalent to one way on the Nanaimo route. The fare you pay at Horseshoe Bay, also covers a one way trip on the Earls Cove to Saltery Bay route. Vice versa when coming from Saltery Bay.

The question was a little confusing at first read, but I think you might have missed the point of it...yes, you do pay for the return crossing with your HB ticket purchase, but if you were already on the peninsula, the trip to HB is "free". If you left Gibsons by way of BCFS and Langdale on the inbound trip to Vancouver, and then took the Coastal Link back, effectively you are getting a "free ride" out of BCFS after the first round trip. The way the system is set up, you could do this ad infinitum.

[Scott]

Does anyone know how they worked it out on PEI in the old days? In 1995 when we went over, I'm sure it was set up so you paid your return fare when you went to the island so there was no fee coming back. It's not quite the same as this situation, but PEI at that time was served by two separate ferry companies, and I wonder how they worked it out if one company thought they were providing more free trips than the other?

I suppose an option for Gibsons would to have a higher fare from Vancouver and a lower fare from Gibsons, just to diminish the chance of people taking advantage of the situation.

[Dane]

While it certainly is possible, and the thrifty may very well trake up this idea I imagine the service being provided by Coastal Link, if well executed will lead to a few things which should mitigate the issue:
1. The all mighty customer loyalty - HL got it, just not enough of it! But there was a case where we saw people change their habits away from BCF and stick with something new. I do realize it was a one fare per direction so obviously different, but still important to consider.
2. Assuming you work in the area surrounding the downtown Vancouver core it costs $3.25ish to take the bus from Downtown Vancouver to Horseshoe Bay, and is time consuming. You would also arrive at the somewhat out-of-the-way Langdale terminal, requiring you to have a ride with $1.50/litre gas or hop on the $2ish Sunshine Coast Transit. So, the convenience of the Coastal Link only really costs you an extra couple dollars, likely well owrth it to get those two hours of your life back that you'd spend getting to BC Ferries.
3. There is a fairly predominent screw BC Ferries attitude in that area, I worked in Sechelt once a week for a year and people just hate BC Ferries. An affordable, realistic alternative will be welcomed and I would assume patronized on that alone.

[Deleted]

Our Owner, Ihab Shaker, was talking with someone who was involved in the old Bruno Gerussi venture. The subject we've been discussing here - the one-way free perception - was a very real difficulty for the Gerussi. Essentially you can travel onto the mainland for free, and yes, it takes you to horseshoe bay.

We at Coastal Links Ferries take this very seriously as well. We don't want to tip our hand, yet, but there are some options for this that we're exploring.

I really hope that our service is recognized as a compliment, rather than competition, to the Queen of Surrey and company.

More in my next email....

[ruddernut]

I can't help but chuckle at the thought of a vessel being named in honour of Bruno Gerussi.

If Halifax gets a passenger ferry, I hope they name it the MV Robb Wells. ;D

[Deleted]

Help me out here, folks, if you will...

I do agree that there is a lot of anti-BC ferry sentiment, one sees it here, in other media outlets, and each day as I meet with people here on the Sunshine Coast.

Yet, there is also a lot of pro-BC Ferry sentiment. It employs a lot of people - both my neighbours (on either side) and across the street at working for BC Ferries. Let's face it, it's a good service in many respects.

But I read, recently, at least two accounts in Vancouver of people who have a sentiment that because BC Ferries are subsidized, those who choose to live in an area that requires ferries (like the Sunshine Coast) are subsidized by those who work in Vancouver and live elsewhere. Essentially these writers were upset that their tax dollars are subsidizing other's desire for a better quality of life.

So what are your opinions? Do others in BC resent paying tax dollars to subsidize the Ferry Service so that it's cheap for those working in Vancouver but living on the Sunshine Coast?

And...is this a loaded question? I don't mean to inflame things. It's just that while one hears loads of comments about the cost of BC Ferries, there are a lot of Government Subsidy dollars keeping that cost lower than if it were not subsidized.

Thanks - I look forward to your replies!

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Coastallink,

You may be opening a huge can of worms with that question! ;D If you look around the forum, you will likely get a good sense of how the different members feel about this particular prickly subject. Trust me, it has reared its head many a time.

[tempest]

OK guys, but I just couldn't resist...

What kind of a business is Capt Shaker running???

Let's take a look..

1) He builds a boat that is almost completed, BUT... has no pre-negotiated landing space in Gibsons, has no pre-negotiated landing space in Vancouver, and has never even approached any of the terminal operators until his boat is almost finished! Huh?

2) The premise of the project is to take advantage of the reported 700 - 900 daily commuters travelling to Vancouver. What market research was done to determine how many of those people can actually benefit from being dropped somewhere (yet undetermined) in Vancouver harbour WITHOUT their vehicle to accomodate travel to their final destinations?

3) The discussion of the one way free aspect of the BC Ferries program, to quote Mr. Green, is now being "explored". What do you mean, it's now being explored? This wasn't done during the development of the business plan?

This whole project is certainly starting to sound more and more like all the other ill conceived, poorly thought out, and half-baked projects of the past. Establishing any ferry service in a market served by a subsidized state operated system is an EXTREMELY tricky manoevre and requires very careful and very thorough planning, something that does not seem to have taken place here.

Just my two cents.

[Deleted]

Thanks Tempest, and you didn't think I'd let that one go by without another two cents worth, did you?

Ok....docks. We knew what it would take to secure docking in both Vancouver and on the Sunshine Coast. We narrowed it down to several sites on each side. It's really a matter of money - when you're ready to plunk down the money, those who control the docking areas have a mandate to make money from their docks. Is every dock in Vancouver filled? There are spaces near the Seabus Terminal, and remember, probably most importantly, there are things i cannot share on a forum like this for obvious reasons. I enjoy when people post that we have not done one thing or another, and I forward the post to the parties with whom we are negotiating and have agreements.

The Gibsons Landing Harbour Authority has been negotiating for what we consider the most "tourism friendly" dock on the Sunshine Coast, one of several options but the only one that makes sense to draw the Tourism Market with which we are already well-connected. Hidden in our business plan, I attended every major Trade Show in Tourism over the past year and represented our Company to a number of buyers.

But one doesn't show up to ask for a Dock with a proposal. It makes sense to show up with a vessel. So we did. I'm scheduled to attend a series of Sea Trial dates next week, but they didn't include icebergs! Watch the Vancouver media next weekend. It'll be "docking good time".

Market Research - a study funded by our company was added to the 2003 study funded by the Town of Gibsons, and data collected over the previous years by various operators. We've had so many "former employees" of other services wishing us well. Further surveys we've conducted, meetings, etc. have established our plan further and we believe we are on the correct path.

And "being explored" means that insofar as the 1-way perceived "free" trip to Vancouver, we have three workable solutions that could be employed. We have created business models of each, but will employ only one. Until we have our Sunshine Coast dock in place we will not determine which would best serve us.

So I hope that sheds light on some of tempests concerns. I agree with Tempest, there seem to be holes - but then, it's not common for a Company to be present on a forum such as this, and even while we do, we know that other players are the table would love to see our hand.

Keep the comments coming, and thank you Tempest!

Have a great weekend everyone,

[tempest]

Peter,

As Ihab knows full well, Ed Life in Nanaimo was the quinessential "I think I can" type of optimist. As a shareholder in HarbourLynx, he had all kinds of ideas that he believed were never heeded. They were'nt heeded for a number of reasons. Having said that he went out and tried to be the hero in reserrecting the Nanaimo to Vancouver service.

Mr. Life never asked anyone what went right, what went wrong, how do you do this or that, he just went along believing he knew better. How does a fellow from the computer industry with no tourism or transportation connections or experience come in and establish such a business. It doesn't happen as we have all found out.

You are right when you suggest that most terminal operators have a duty to get the most bang for their buck with respect to their facilities. If you were looking at a place such as a local marina to land your vessel, I would agree that the terminal operators primary business is leasing moorage, that's a given. In the case of other locations such as the Seabus terminal, that is not their primary business, it is running a transit service. When someone like your company approaches a government organization such as Translink you a forced to deal with the real estate arm of the company whos ONLY interest is to view you as a 'low risk, high revenue opportunity' for them! What's wrong with that picture? A simple look at airports would prove this theory. Worldwide, most airlines attempt to operate on somewhere around 3-4% return on investment while most airports operate on 22 - 25% return. What's wrong with that picture. Take for example one of the directors of the Gibsons Harbour Authority comments concerning not wanting to put all their eggs in your basket because "They have another operator showing interest". What a crock! How about "we are telling the world we have another operator interested so we can drive the price you're going to pay UP!".

With respect to trying to compete with BC Ferries, you are right, they are heavily subsidized. That's why they can build bigger and more expensive boats when volume is decreasing or flatlined. Their whole funding formula is drastically different than a private enterprise.

The only reason the Government privatized BC Ferry Corp., was to stop the meddling by the house and every publicity seeking back bencher as well as trying to make it operate like a business. While they have made great strides in privatizing their model and using private business practices, they have a long way to go.

I apologize for what appears to have been rather strong comments. I become gravely concerned when I see people appear to be repeating the mistakes of others who have been there before them without seeking their assistance first. There is much to be learned from their experience.

Cheers!

[Guest 101]

I have noticed that most or all of this new member Tempest post have been about Coastal Link......

Anyway.....Peter,

Pictures of Vessel - even if not finished - what type of vessel is it?
Would help us....also an idea of your brand - logo, and has been pointed out......

There are a few question marks over your business model - forget the business plan - you need a strategy, then a model - then a plan and of course a cash flow statement and extremely deep pockets.

This is not longer a market for the "keen" amateurish any more.

[tempest]

Guest 101,

You are correct concerning my interests. They are not primarily with BC Ferries, but rather high speed passenger ferries. I am keenly interested in changing the model of how people travel and admire the trendsetters in the transportation industry like Victoria Clipper, Teknicraft, Sea Transport Solutions, and Speedferries in England.

All of these organizations have either successful designs or successful business models.

I am aware of few companies that can come to town and be an instant success other than perhaps WalMart, Home Depot and McDonalds. Any other entrepeneur must tread carefully, logically, and with purpose.

Cheers!

[Deleted]

Before my dumbest question of the year is asked...

I actually enjoyed Tempest's questions and perspectives.

I really hope Tempest and many of you get a chance to meet Ihab Shaker. He was a Deep Sea Ship's Captain, and got the first High Speed endorsement for the Great Lakes. The cool thing about him is that he can do anything on that boat, and has done just about everything on the water.

Ok...dumbest question?

How do I upload photos here? I was looking for some kind of upload function - where is it?

Back soon!!

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Coastal...the only dumb question is the one never asked!

Look here for your answer...then one of us can help you out if you have any difficulties.

[Canadian Documantary]

There are over 40 people who "walk on" **For Free** each morning at 820, on to the Queen of Surrey, it will be great to offer them an alternative closer to Gibsons and straight to downtown.

It would be very interesting to see how BC ferries would react if foot passenger count went down, especially on the return trips (when they got to pay)

As a tourist thing, to bring people in and out for the weekend, I give my thumbs up to you coastal link!

[tempest]

Well, I just can't believe what I'm hearing...

So, a fella builds a 1-2 million dollar boat....

Has no terminal arrangements pre-arranged....

Can't get docking space in Gibsons.....

So threatens to use the boat on the Nanaimo run! OMG!!!

Check it out!

I'm not sure if this link will work, but you fellas are pretty smart. You'll figure it out!

www.ckay.ca/news/ferry_eckford.mp3

[Hardy]

Jun 18, 2008 20:44:35 GMT -8 @tempest said:

www.ckay.ca/news/ferry_eckford.mp3

To add some context to this, it is a clip by Sean Eckford, a reporter for "The Coast 91.7 FM" which is a Sechelt radio station. The link for the 'print' story is: www.ckay.ca/news.php

There is no date given for when the story broke. I have emailed the station to get some information on this so that we have the story in complete context.