Coastal Link Ferries

[Guest 121]

Peter

With all your research I was wondering do you know why the Georgia Master and the Bruno Gerusi did stop operations? I have heard many versions, which is the truth? Have you talked to the Opperators?

[Deleted]

Mornin' all, I'm picking Captain Shaker up at the Langdale Terminal in 1 hour.

But there's some discussion going on here, and I'll address the issues:

First, Tempest, you're right, Captain Shaker is going to Nanaimo. He was always going to Nanaimo, from when I wrote his first proposal. Gibsons was a move to capitalize on the Tourist Traffic, and that's why I am here, but it's not a threat to pull out, it's always been forefront in our plans. The new Coastal Runner could do the trip, but not on rough days, and it's not the intended vessel for the Nanaimo market.

But he didn't just threaten to go to Nanaimo, he's always been planning that and shared that back during his first interviews on 91.7.

He will have mutliple markets fairly quickly.

Also, did you hear any of his interviews on CBC Radio Victoria in late May? Or read any of the Nanaimo news articles in print about his service? To read your last post, I think you're looking to paint a tantrum in this...sorry, no tantrum, realistic business decisions are all he's offering.

Ok...and why didn't we have docking in place? Because nobody believed us. We have docking on the Vancouver side, but Gibsons rolls its eyes and understandably is hesitant about embracing a new ferry service. I spoke at a meeting of members of the Chamber of Commerce here a couple of days ago and shared this: every time I speak with someone about this service, well 90% of the time, the first question is "is it going to work".

So Gibsons has a dock. A Government-built dock, which isn't likely going anywhere. We didn't want to waste time and energy until we bring the Coastal Runner in for a visit...then people will believe more than they do now. I hate fighting battles that are unnecessary.

They may not want us, there are plans B and C, all workable and viable, and yes, I've been out exploring those over the past two days. Not simply Gibsons but the markets we are anticipating. Docks, water routes and people who need to travel are abundant on the west coast - not to take them for granted, but they are more likely to respond to a vessel than a proposal.

That's all I can share here. What's funny is that here in this "small town", as locals call it when they share what "they've heard" about us, news travels fast. Folks, just remember, the smart ones, and those with the reliable information, know when to talk, and to remain silent.

Ok....now the Bruno Gerussi and the Georgia Strait. I've heard a number of reasons why they failed. I have the media cover of the Gerussi's tale - poor financing, an owner who faced legal action over other business ventures and eventually had the boat impounded by authorities, the works.

I think it boils down to this: There is a large market that travels to Vancouver. Many daily, many occasionally. A downtown-to-downtown Ferry would serve them well.

There is a major market in Tourism that wants to visit the Sunshine Coast, that wants day outings, spousal and companion programs, teambuilding, the works....and I spent the past two years networking with BC Tourism reps and operators at some of the world's largest Travel/Trade shows, learning that the mind-set is the Sunshine Coast requires a certain approach when marketing it to groups and individuals. The Ferry from Horseshoe Bay, having ground transportation, getting around the coast, etc.

Now 2 guests from Norway staying at the Four Seasons can join 4 people from the Hostel and 8 local Vancouverites looking for a picnic day and come to the coast for a briefer, less-difficult experience of walk-on, walk-off, eat, shop, browse, learn, kayak, etc. Make any model like this and the issue is convenient access and times.

Tourism is a huge key. And oooooh, Tourism is suffering because of fuel - we all are. Our vessels, unlike previous vessels, is highly fuel-efficient. Our service is essentially transit-linked but much quicker. Another benefit to commuters is that, once they use us regularly, we hope to shave at least an hour to 90 minutes off their travel time.

People don't want to drive - the Vancouver market will be able to do what the Toronto market has done for years. I took the Center Island Ferry for many years to spend a day with my family in the Island Amusement Park and natural picnic areas. No need to drive outside of the city.

So the previous efforts didn't appear to embrace Tourism as the "other half" of the moneymaking effort, not to the same degree. They also used vessels that were fuel inefficient, and that was when gas was a third of what it is today.

Well, it's tourism, but it's also reliability and confidence.

So we're continuing to work on it. I'm off now to seek other shores, but we'll keep updating. You're all wonderful, thank you.

Peter

[tempest]

Sorry Peter, but I had to respond. You are out 'exploring' options B and C? This has been my point all along. You folks built a boat for a specific run, without obviously, knowing what the docking arrangements could be or could cost...at least it appears that way. Then, out of the blue, Gibsons is being 'difficult'. I can't understand why one wouldn't have contracts and deadlines to meet and firm commitments on both parties parts BEFORE one 'shows up for a visit' with a 1-2 Million dollar boat looking for moorage. Sorry, but none of this makes sense.
You have also spoken about the return fare approach BCFS uses, and that you were 'exploring' how to deal with that... Wasn't the time for exploration a LONG time ago when the business plan was being drafted?

As far as re-deploying the Coastal Runner, even part time, to the Nanaimo run is a questionable tactic at best. You've got docking and slow bell areas and the balance of the run. I understood your vessel would do 25K. If the HarbourLynx was 31-32K and did the trip in 1 h 20 min, on average, what would sailing time be 1 hr 40, 1hr 50min?

I understand Capt. Shaker always had his sights set on Nanaimo. I am well aware of that. Everyone will do fine when the sun is out and the tourists are here, but what happens in September when the kids are back to school? What do you do when BCFS will take you and your car from Tswassen (sp) to Duke point for 25 bucks? What do you do when they have a seniors promotion and they charge $25 for a vehicle and you and your wife go for FREE? What do you do when they have a promotion at a couple of BC Lions games and give away 70,000 free tickets to the island?

Sorry, but I just keep scratching my head and saying "Huh???"

[Guest 101]

I don’t understand your comment about “Gibson” been a little difficult.

It is you spending money to market your route – not the people & tax payers of Gibson’s.
For Gibson what they need is new “young” blood in the community. Young families, so Schools stay open. Yes it is nice to have a large pool of retired people – but with that it brings a whole new set of services and to provide those services you need younger people.

The Gibson Economic Development people – a few years ago where trying extremely hard to attract young families to their area.

In your marketing of the proposed route into Gibson – you most likely will work with local business – and offer some sort of piggy back advertisement deal – as they will not be able to afford a campaign by themselves. You therefore are promoting Gibson – so whether you are successful or fail – it shouldn’t matter to the Community of Gibson.

If your successful they win due to increase in revenue and the name – location of Gibson’s becomes better known – which means more tourists.

If you fail – what happens…nothing? Gibson is still the same – but a few more people know about it.

[Guest 101]

Peter,

I am concerned about your comments about the vessel not been able to do the run (route) in rough weather.

Surely the smart thing to do – was agreeing first on a route, then see which is the correct vessel for it. The last thing you need is a vessel – which people try – but end up with a very unpleasant trip. They in turn will tell a lot more people – then a successful trip where your passenger had a comfortable cross – sailing.

Surely this then becomes counterproductive to a successful business. I then return to my first though,….. what is your strategy and then what is your business model?

We are still waiting to see (Pictures) what type of vessel your company has chosen for whichever route you start.

[ck]

Hi

CKAY ran the story in question Tuesday June 17th, it came out of our check on the progress of the project knowing that CLF was due to start sea trials for their ship on Monday.

It had been public knowledge for some time at that point that Coastal Link and the Gibsons Landing Harbour Authority had not yet finalized an agreement for use of the Gov't wharf

The story linked to on this board is one of two versions we ran.

Also, as an FYI, we do not keep stories up permanently so that link will expire within a week or two.

Sean Eckford,
News Director
CKAY-FM
Sechelt

[tempest]

Colin,

I thought that your audio wouldn't probably be there for long.

Doesn't this whole thing just sound a little wierd? A fella builds a boat to run between Gibsons and Vancouver and when it's 80% built, then approaches the folks who he'll have to lease terminal space from??? Isn't this just a little bit of cart before the horse mentality?

Maybe it's just me?

Cheers!

[Deleted]

Wow! Lots of things to respond to!

Did I say Gibsons was a little difficult? I didn't see that, as I said, they've been through this so many times before that it's a matter of needing to show the vessel. We got it today, in two straight meetings, from people who asked "is it really going to happen?".

First, the Coastal Runner was built to conduct the bulk of it's trade within Howe Sound and avoid any really rough days out in the Strait. Hence it would not be our first choice to be the mainstay of a Nanaimo run.

As I said earlier, and the communciations I've received from countless residents of various places attests, there are several markets where a downtown - to -downtown Ferry would make sense. We're exploring all of them. Some are more confined, within Howe Sound, others are more distant.

And by the way, Ihab Shaker met with the GLHA back in February to dicuss the option of the Gibsons Harbour. It's only recently that we advanced to where we could forsee a start date and began negotiations to use the dock.

We also agree that Gibsons needs new, "young" blood. My wife and I just moved here with our daughter, she's 5, and have attended school board meetings that attest to the loss of young families. I could go into this at great length, but it's a big thing for us to help shave an hour or so off the average commute time for a lot of people. Families do better that way. And we promote local business through a variety of means - we are, of course, selling Gibsons!

Nanaimo Economic Development officials were delighted to hear that Ihab was considering Nanaimo. With the appropriate vessel. They sent a ton of material to me, which included information attesting to a number of homeowners who had to sell and return to the Vancouver area when the Harbour Lynx went under. For any market, the development of more transportation alternatives is a win-win.

And the Coastal Runner will be fine for what we intend, if it's Gibsons or another localized route. We'll update you on that shortly. It's just not suited for the open Strait on them "fun days".

Insofar as pictures go, I have to remind Ihab Shaker to take pictures because I have a half-day kindergartener who makes getting there in the mornings hard. I'm going over tomorrow for certain tests so I'll take my own first photos.

Hey Tempest? When you wonder if it's just you? It is. I mean that with good-natured ribbing. Try doing this sometime, invest a million or so, and first approach the various Harbour Authorities with a blueprint.....then do it with the real thing. You'll find the difference astounding.

I really appreciate your input, and Sean Eckford from CKAY-FM has been great.

Take care....we got a huge meeting in about 14 minutes....

[Scott (Former Account)]

Moved from another thread...

Jun 19, 2008 16:43:47 GMT -8 @guest 1 said:

Wow! What an interesting discussion and turn of events!! I have been following this whole debate since it started.

Don't even get me started on the Nanaimo Port Authority or Economic Development Office(r).

The Port of Nanaimo quite ably assisted in the demise of Harbourlynx, but still don't get how... When the whole issue of restarting the ferry back in 2001 got started by a young man named Geoff McNeil, they thought "Wow, how can we get our share of this golden egg!" They put out an rfp to grant a licence for the service and the next thing you know, Geoff and company were fighting with another Parksville concern to get the thing off the ground. What it all succeeded to do was drive up the price with two entities so excited to get going they could almost taste it. The port authority loved it..."we'll all get rich off this project!"

The NPA was after Victoria Clipper for years to restart the service. Darryl Bryan told them he wouldn't do business with them if they were the last port in North America, particularly if they intended to rip him off the way they did Royal Sealink Express.

Harbourlynx stated that any Tom, hat or Harry fisherman could rent the dock space they were using for about 9K per year. The port expected the ferry to pay $250 K to start, ramping up annually to somewhere in about the $500 K mark annually. Don't forget Translink and the Port of Vancouver also had there hands out!

The EDC in Nanaimo, what a joke! Help, forget it! They haven't got a clue. They put out a fancy brochure with graphs and figures and double bound...it was wonderful. Had economic statements in it like "here's a financial forecast" Look at how wonderful. "Oh, did we forget to tell you that the forecast was based on buying fuel for $0.45 / litre? Ooops! Or the statement that said that Royal Sealink made money on the run. How come Graham Clarke told me that the Royal Sealink didn't even make enough to pay for its own fuel.

Be careful. They will lie through their teeth to suck you in to come to Nanaimo, and then you're on your own to sink or swim, probably to sink. But of course, unless they force Bill Mills to retire, he'll still have his $200K per year job, and of course Marilyn Hutchinson will still be getting her $100K per year while you're collecting unemployment.

Just thought you'd like to know. I'm sorry if it sounds real cruel and harsh, but I live here and know the players.

[Guest 121]

Peter

I am sorry, but after reading all the posts in this thread I am starting to become more and more doubtful.

A few items I see.

1. You claim to have pictures and ask how to post them, then a bit latter you say you need to ask Shaker to take pictures or you need to take some, which is it do you have pictures or not. Maybe someone should take some for you.

2. You claim to have all this research and knowledge and some how you will do so much better than the other people who have been there done that before you. Then you only have media reports about the Bruno Gerussi and you call the Georgia Master the Georgia Strait. You can't even get the name right let alone know what happened. You further say they did not look at tourism, the Georgia Master had some deal with Tourism, only the Tourism did not pay their bills so the Georgia Master had to take them to court. Tourism is a great other source, if they pay their bills otherwise you just spend money on operations for nothing. Commuters are the only reliable source of revenue from what I have read.

Have you ever talked to the operators who have done this or is this all about rumors and unreliable news reports? I note that in different reports the issue of whose capital is being used is reported differently for Coastal Link Ferries. In one report it is reported that Mr Shaker statement is that the financing is all his capital in another report it is reported Mr. Shaker has financial investors. It is irrelevant what the capitalization is, but I am just pointing out news reports are not accurate and there are obvious contradictions, so any opinion based on news reports is probably wrong due to corrupted information.

So back to my original question, do you have the real facts? Have you talked to the real people? Is your research complete?

[tempest]

Peter,

A week or so ago you made comment concerning a 'villain'. Are you ready to divulge who that might be yet? Transport Canada,
Port of Vancouver, or Gibsons Harbour Authority? Let me take a guess?

Thanks for the ribbing Peter, BUT, I would sure rather do all the due diligence, spend my money on marketing analysis, traffic forecasting, and have a solid business case than go in blind "I think I can" attitude and fail. The failing part really sucks, and sure as hell costs a lot more than good thorough research before launching a business. Businesses with good solid business plans and solid preparation rarely fail.

[yvr]

When Peter of Coastal Link saw this site he probably thought here was an opportunity for some free marketing. Keeping abreast of this thread shows that's not happening, in fact most are picking holes in Coastal Link's plan. While this is primarily a site for ferry enthusiasts, people with obvious business backgrounds are posting some serious questions for Coastal Link. If Mr. Shaker was obtaining funding from a bank he would have to provide a winning business plan, including proof that he had secured all docking rights, a viable vessel, and a team cable of executing the plan. It appears that some of this has not happened. While we all wish a new entrant success, it may be challenging for CLF to be a long term financial winner.

[Scott]

While I'm still not convinced that this will be any more successful than previous attempts, this thread is quite interesting... following the planned creation of a ferry service from the start with all the issues that are involved. I hope Peter and CoastalLink will continue to keep us updated and answer our questions. And despite our skepticism, I think most of us hope that this service and any expansions in the future will be successful. It's exciting to think of the possibilities of improved marine passenger transportation in and around Vancouver and the south coast.

[Ferry Rider]

As a long time commuter from Gibsons to Vancouver I have ridden the Queen of Surrey more times than I can count. I also took a chance on the Georgia Master. I must admit by the time the Bruno Gerussi came around I was not willing to take a chance again. Now there is a third try at this service.

When I started to test the Georgia Master I thought it was great, it was basically door to door for me and I did save a ton of time. It was also a bit on the edge. The boat was smaller, less comfortable, and less reliable than BC Ferries but we all felt a bit like rebels, bucking the trend. There was a small community that formed. The regulars. We got to know each other and we also got to know Captain George. He would be quite open about his plans, his struggles and his solutions to problems. It was fun watching the arm chair ferry operators criticize and comment on everything they felt Captain George did wrong. From what I saw most of those comments were more an indication of the person making the comments ignorance than Captain George’s. What I saw was an entrepreneur who put his own money and life style on the line for a dream. A real challenging dream. As the years went by I could see in Captain George the effect it was having on him. He gained weight, he looked more and more tired as time went on. When Captain George finally did call it quits, many were angry with him and they made it known in no uncertain terms. I regretted not having the service but I was always thankful he tried and really did give it a good honest college try.

Captain George tried many innovative ideas to help keep the service alive. He started a van pool, he sold sponsorships, he tried to do tours, he arranged late night sailings to hockey games, he arranged grocery discounts for monthly passengers, etc. He tried many different ideas to try to make it work. But in the end he could not do it.

I met Captain George on the Queen of Surrey a few years later and we talked about the Georgia Master. At that time his attitude was he could not believe he did it. He did not miss any aspect of the service and if he knew before he started what it would take he would have never done it. One thing I found out then which I did not know happened when he did shut things down, was that the main reason he just shut it down was he received a BC Ferries internal planning report where his service was analyzed. The conclusion that BC Ferries took was that if Captain George failed the service was not viable so they would do nothing, if he did continue and succeed, then BC Ferries would build their own vessel with tax dollars and compete Captain George out of the business. Faced with that prospect there was only one choice for Captain George and that was to shut down.

I found it interesting, I was there, riding the Georgia Master. I would talk to Captain George frequently, yet I never knew why he shut down, I thought he ran out of money.

Has Captain Shaker looked into this, is BC Ferries going to play ball or could they do the same?

One foot note, when I did return to the Queen of Surrey, I realized it was not that bad, in fact it was pretty good. It was clean, reliable, warm, and had food, (Not great food but food) On a sunny summer day, there is no better ride in the world.

So good luck to Captain Shaker, but I will stay with the Queen of Surrey this time. You may be doing some things differently than others, but the real villain will be BC Ferries and in the long run they will run you down, just like they run down other boaters off Bowen Island.

[Deleted]

Did i call the Georgia Master the Georgia Strait? eek. No more beer while working.

Ok, later today I promise to get the construction photos up. Yes, I have them. And yes, I do not get to Vancouver very often. We're all quite busy and photos seem to be forgotten, but I think in the next week it will all be moot anyway. The vessel will be coming to the Sunshine coast, then rather than speculating, come down and tell me.

Yes, I've been remiss about photos. Mea culpa. I apologize.

Yes, it seems that my information comes from everywhere. It does. What I can share is still limited, and perhaps I should wait until the ship arrives.

In the end, I did not come here for free marketing. I've learned a lot here, and I felt that after reading the forum it needed a voice to address a lot of misinformation. For crying out loud, you guys discovered that our web designer is from the eastern US (he used to live here) and thought it was a ruse! You have more fine-toothed-combs than Revenue canada.

Ihab Shaker financed most of this himself, and has financial partners to support growth and other issues.

Villain? We'll see. Not anyone you've mentioned. But from here, it's not fair to play games like this, just watch the water and the media. Someone mentioned last week intrigue, fear...whatever. No, you all know something will come against us. It always does.

There are as many stories about past Ferry ventures as there are people who rode them. I can't offer you the exact reason, I have heard multiple explanations. Yes, Tourism people shared a very different perspective on the services rendered by past operators. Everybody's talkin'....hmmm...great name for a song!

I hear a ton of stuff. I read a ton of stuff. Just watch the water!
I hope that by being here, the doubt can be removed. It's all premature, like asking for a dock with a proposal in hand. Watch the water, the ship will arrive, we'll talk differently then.

Have a great day!! Back this afternoon -

and you have been great, so if you want a copy of those pics emailed directly to you just email me at [e-mail] and I'll send them back directly. I'm a technophobe so learning to uplink here is one thing, but I can attach!

[Guest 121]

Peter Green stated:

"There are as many stories about past Ferry ventures as there are people who rode them. I can't offer you the exact reason, I have heard multiple explanations. Yes, Tourism people shared a very different perspective on the services rendered by past operators. Everybody's talkin'....hmmm...great name for a song!"

A lot of posters are asking questions about how will Coastal Link Ferries avoid the problems which have caused the failures of the past. It would seem that based on what Peter has said, the "Plan" to "succeed" is based on rumors and news reports, not hard facts. And even then there are holes in the plan large enough to sink the Coastal Runner.

Now I am really doubtful, the more I read Peter's posts the less confidence I have. I am thinking more like Tempest, is this a real business plan? What kind of person would invest a million into a boat (According to my ship yard friend who has seen the boat, this boat could not cost more than that.) with a half baked plan, with little or no research. (Good thing it is not my money)

To me the obvious lack of facts and knowledge about the past failures probably means the same mistakes will be made.

Sounds to me like Coastal Link Ferries is relying on promises of potential revenue for 50% of their income from tour operators in Vancouver. From what I hear those promises are not worth a dime. So what happens when that part of the plan does not materialize?

There are so many mis steps that can happen, and so many that have already happened. Another classic, invest all your money with no agreement, and then announce the service with no agreement too. Kinda like West Coast Express where Glen Clark does a splashy announcement with graphs and maps, but has not secured the deal with CP, so CP has him by the curlies and we all get ripped off because CP charges 10 times what is a fair price, because Glen Clark already made the news. The GLHA can be as hard nosed as they want, because they hold all the cards right now, CLF holds nothing. There is no business without a dock. GLHA is in the drivers seat.

I am really starting to think like Tempest in that I see no real plan for this, so the plan must be something else and this route is just a stop gap for the boat, until the real plan comes about. For example, if the real plan was to go after the BC Ferries contract to Keats and Gambier, but the boat was not built on time so they need to wait until the contract comes due again. So just do something in the interim. I could see where that was the plan and a plan that could work, that contract is guaranteed by BC Ferries, is more revenue than the commuters can pay and is fewer hours. There has to be something else to this. My rule is anyone with money is not stupid, so if they look stupid that is just them hiding the real plan, they are not stupid.

PS news flash to Peter Green, we on the sunshine coast are not hicks, being surprised that we knew about your web designer in a heart beat is just common sense. There are a lot of IT professionals on the Coast and also a lot of very smart professionals, most of which commute so they are the interested ones. Don't be surprised if we know how many times your kid goes to the bathroom at school, this is a small tight community that is full of very talented people who know their stuff, plus we do have Google. ;D

[Northern Exploration]

Hmmm. Let me give you what I think I would be doing in the same shoes as Coastal Link.

Firstly, I would probably be networking exactly as Peter is. I would be chatting on tourist boards, I would be talking to local businesses that rely on tourism, I would be talking to hotel concierges and hotel groups, I would be at Board of Trade meetings, and I would be chatting on boards such as this.

Secondly, I would be happy to be open as I could, answer questions and keep an open mind incase someone has a bright idea that hasn't been considered before.

Thirdly, I wouldn't be so open as to lay open my whole business plan to someone who just happens to have a burr in his "cough"... "ahem" ...saddle. Laying out my business plan in a public forum at this stage just because a person is challenging me or demanding answers wouldn't be wise. As a business professional I would counsel a client NOT to do it. Someone who did do it, I would come to one of two conclusions. 1. They were extremely naiive and I would wonder what other obvious mistakes they would make in business. 2. They were going way out of their way to be transparent and open for some very good reason - but it had better be an very very important reason to take that risk.

Fourthly, the fact that it was private money being spent on the service, with or without other investors, would mean that any information I chose to give out was done so for good reasons and in order to build trust and confidence in the operation. Not for approval and second guessing. Any information I released would be thought through carefully and the information written and diseminated in such as way to gain maximum advantage for my investment. And you know there would be eyes all over that information from people who didn't want to see my venture flourish. Competitors such as BC Ferries, bus and other transportation agencies would be stupid not to be trying to learn as much as possible about my venture and prevent any errosion of their own business. Saying too much too early would be like putting a nail in the coffin of my business as it were.

Lastly, my natural instinct with someone who approached me with attitude, negativity and who demanded answers like they had a right to know, would be to tell them to take a long leap off a short pier. However, my experience would take over until my patience had been totally exhausted. You answer what you can, be pleasant but don't go so far as to hurt your business in the process by being too patient. Saying goodbye to a customer or a potential customer shouldn't be done lightly, but at some point becomes necessary.

I would think if someone is so knowledgeable and smart, and knows so much about this subject, they would be quite willing to put their name out there and register as a member instead of simply posting a guest and taking pot shots.

I have enjoyed watching the to and fro and if I was teaching a business or marketing course would love to use this as an example. There is a couple of other parallels with other forums I am a member of. One example is comments about the 787 and some posters impression that because Boeing isn't answering all the questions that certain posters would like to see answered immediately [there is a conspiracy or something to hide]. Like Boeing isn't busy enough doing what they are to get the plane out with no further delays, and keeping their customers happy, they have to run around just to satisfy some armchair critics. It is quite amazing to see how some people think and/or spin situations to further their own viewpoints.

I look forward to hearing more from you Peter and watching as the service starts up. I too would love to see marine transportation on the southcoast start to approach what is done in other parts of the world and would love to see a whole range of options open up to the car and road in Vancouver.

[Guest 121]

Jun 14, 2008 9:19:16 GMT -8 @tempest said:

I apologize for what appears to have been rather strong comments. I become gravely concerned when I see people appear to be repeating the mistakes of others who have been there before them without seeking their assistance first. There is much to be learned from their experience.

I find myself agreeing with Tempest more and more the more I read. I get very concerned when "Johnny Come Lately" comes along, thinks he is so much smarter than the last guy, but has never even talked to the last guy.

Can we get some information on either of the past attempts. I heard that Kona Winds even tried this service with Bowen many years ago, he is in Gibsons now. Anyone know him? Nothing is education like the education of hard knocks, I bet these past operators have lots to offer.

[Low Light Mike]

For the sake of context in following this discussion, I'm wondering if regular-poster "Guest 121" would like to disclose a bit about his/her self.

So far, we know that he/she has said "....we on the Sunshine Coast", so that would indicate that Mr/Ms 121 is a resident somewhere on the coast. That being said, why are you so involved in this discussion (compared with the lack of "Guest 121" posts on other threads on this forum board)?

ie.
- What's your interest in the subject ?
- Why the interest in this subject, but not in other subjects on this forum?
- Are you a potential customer ?
- Are you a potential competitor ?
- This discussion also features an old member now known as "Guest 101". I'm assuming that there's no relation between the 101 family and the 121 family? (although as a Sunshine-Coast resident, I can see how the number "101" would be a coveted number re the highway......)

Just curious about all this, as at some point it's good to know who all the players in this discussion actually are.

Member "Tempest" has shown consistent interest in fast/passenger ferry discussions, so it's not surprising that Tempest is participating here on this thread.

Is Mr/Ms 121 new to the forum, or is he/she a long time reader who's just now starting to post? In any case, "Welcome" and thanks for participating here.

Thanks.

[Guest 121]

Jun 20, 2008 17:02:32 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

For the sake of context in following this discussion, I'm wondering if regular-poster "Guest 121" would like to disclose a bit about his/her self.

So far, we know that he/she has said "....we on the Sunshine Coast", so that would indicate that Mr/Ms 121 is a resident somewhere on the coast. That being said, why are you so involved in this discussion (compared with the lack of "Guest 121" posts on other threads on this forum board)?

ie.
- What's your interest in the subject ?
- Why the interest in this subject, but not others on this forum?
- Are you a potential customer ?
- Are you a potential competitor ?
- Are you also "Guest 101" ?

Just curious, as at some point it's good to know who all the players in this discussion actually are.

Thanks.

I am probably a potential customer, but I will not be a regular for at least 2 years, the reason, as a commuter I must be able to trust the reliability of the transportation I choose. If I dedicate myself to the Coastal Runner, and I arrive at 7:00 AM to find for some reason it is not running that day, I will have to wait for the 8:20 Queen of Surrey. That would cost me over $1,200 of billable time. (I am a Lawyer, billable time is king) Do that a few times and it is not worth it. So I am not going to be an early adopter for sure. I watched the Georgia Master and was just about to jump then it shut down. That was about 3 years I think, and he still failed. The Bruno, well to fast up and gone for my blood. Think if Skytrain was private and could fail any day, who would use it?

I am very interested in seeing this service start and work, I do not believe it can be private, not that I am Socialist or Union in any way, but people need to be able to count on it 99.99% and a small private operator cannot deliver that reliability. But if it could be reliable I would love it. I hate to say but this must be Government.

I am for sure not a competitor or potential. Warren Buffet has a saying we all know, the best way to become a millionaire is to buy an airline, but you need to be a billionaire first. Well I watched both previous operators loose a ton of money making an attempt at this service, so my view is the best way to become bankrupt is to start a passenger only ferry service in Gibsons, but you need to be a millionaire first. No way in a million years would I invest my time or money into this service.

I am not Guest101. I just used Guest 121 because I saw 101 and wanted to make sure I used a unique name. No idea who Guest 101 is. I am new to this.

I am not active on other subjects because this is what I was researching on Google so I found this subject. I heard the news reports about CLF, Googled them, and this thread is about the 5th hit. Then once I was drawn in I was very fascinated. There are lots of people who really know their stuff on this subject, in fact it seems the posters know more than CLF.

Once I have time I will look around the rest of the subjects, but I am not sure I have much to offer on other BC Ferry subjects, this specific service is what interests me. Even all the politics and crap about the Queen of Surrey, I don't care, just get me in and out, on time and dry and I am good, they do that every day.

As for being a guest and not joining, well I know about liability and these forums are a mine field of liability, not interested in my name getting near that.

[Low Light Mike]

Thanks "121" for that; I appreciate you taking the time to explain a bit about yourself. I look forward to reading more of your comments on your "Guest 121" brand; and thanks for your consistent use of that "Guest 121" name, as it helps everyone keep track of who is who. (as opposed to guest who changes generic names regularly).

Cheers, and enjoy your weekend.

Mr. Horn.

[Deleted]

Going back a few posts, Northern Exploration is dead on about how much we can share with this group. I am here because I enjoy it, I learn from some of you, and I can share some aspects with a group who took a passionate interest in us.

And Guest 121 is a Lawyer! I KNEW there was a shark in these waters!!!! Ok, all kidding aside, I really enjoyed his post. See you in 2 years Guest 121, your concerns are understood.

And insofar as past services are concerned, you'd be amazed who we talked with, who we continue to talk with, who we meet with, and our sources of information. But then, you'll just have to watch the water!

I liked the Warren Buffet quote. I don't know if it applies to Gibsons, but it can apply to any one of millions of investment opportunities.

By the way, only one person wrote to me to ask for the photos. They have them. I'll post them soon.

Take care and enjoy your weekend!

[landlocked]

Well Ladies and Gentlemen,

A very interesting dialogue.

I believe most on the forum know who I am. I have introduced myself to Peter Green and Capt Shaker. He did not seem too interested in what I had to say, but then I expected that he may well have heard plenty of what I did wrong in Nanaimo from the likes of the Nanaimo Port Authority, Ed Life, the Economic Development Office, and perhaps even a few of the crew members of HarbourLynx.

In my defense, we had a wonderful thing going. It was a growing service and it did not fail due to lack of interest. There are reasons why HL finally failed. The paramount reasons were that the stbd engine failed due to what I consider (and some don't share my 'opinion') was the poor quality of the rebuilding of the engines AND the fact that the shareholders elected to bring it BC to complete the overhaul. That one item alone left them behind the eight ball financially. By the time the service got up and running, they were already financially strapped. Add two years of service, a BCGEU certification, and a blown engine. We were DONE!!

Now, could I have shown Ed Life anything? Yes. He had no interest in my help. Could I be of any help to Coastal Link? Maybe. I wish Peter Green and Capt Shaker the very best. From what I read so far, do they appear to have it together? Not sure.

My very best wishes Peter and Ihab.

I look forward to many more posts!

Best Regards!

[Deleted]

Landlocked certainly is known to us, and his mention of the engine troubles on the Harbourlynx brings to mind that our engine is brand new. That was one of the issues that Ihab shared with me when he first decided to build the vessel. So for those who speculated here that we weren't paying attention to previous efforts, I've seen the purchase bill for the engine.

To be honest, I'm involved in Marketing & Communications with a strong focus on tourism. After we're up and running, I'll post a "review" of those previous services that was provided to me by a very well placed tourism source. At the same time, there are so many sources and voices available on the previous services...a plethora, or perhaps a gaggle? A school of sources? A pride? There's a helluva lot of people and resources available who are more than willing to share.

From what I heard and learned about HarbourLynx, I smiled when I heard Landlocked say "...heard plenty about what I (he) did wrong in Nanaimo" - actually, one source mentioned a lot of what you did right. Few seem to truly bash it, publicly or face-to-face, because they know how hard it is. In anonymous forums, maybe.

Come on gang, it's obvious. The issues are obvious, the challenges are obvious....nobody's that foolish to spend this much money and put forth this kind of effort without a business plan and a vision....and we're only going to reveal that entire plan to certain sources.

Ihab Shaker didn't take money from (name your source) and decide to build a Ferry. He tried it on Lake Ontario, and he tried really hard. Like almost every successful Business Venture, he had a failure in his learning curve...then he did it in Egypt, where people do ride Ferries (the Nile is a big river)....then he came back, and decided to apply those lessons here where the market potential is strong.

Yesterday, it was Ihab, not somebody who he hired to design and build a vessel, who was working with Transport Canada on inspection and adjustments. He is the real thing, he's logged more nautical miles than I could imagine in a lifetime that brought him to the widest range of markets...

So we respect Landlocked and everyone at HarbourLynx for trying as hard as they did. Who knows what the future holds here, we're a small core staff to begin with....watch the water, the vessel being here changes everything.

Have a great weekend, folks!

[George Slade]

Hello folks, this is George Slade, I ran the Georgia Master Service from 1997 – 1999. I met a person on the Queen of Surrey this weekend who use to be one of the regular passengers on the Georgia Master, and he told me about this forum and asked me to comment. I presume he is one of the existing members and posters.

I am not into blogging or internet forums, and I will not be returning to post further comments, or read replies as I am involved in other projects not related. If anyone wishes to contact me for further my email is [e-mail]

I am not sure if everyone knows exactly who I am so a little background. As I said, I operated the Georgia Master from 1997 – 1999 between Gibsons Landing and the harbour master float beside the Seabus Terminal Vancouver. Since that time I have been involved in continual research on the subject of small passenger only ferry services. I continue to consult to Government and operators on issues locally but more and more internationally as opportunities are greater outside the region. I have done detailed studies of services in Vancouver, Boston, Seattle, New York, San Francisco, Auckland NZ, Wellington NZ, Sydney AU and Hong Kong. In addition to my Captains, and Engineers Certification from Transport Canada I also have Hovercraft Pilot Certification from Transport Canada.

As for the current proposed service by Coastal Link Ferry (CLF), I only have details as reported in the press, and as such my information may be inaccurate. I have not talked to anyone who is involved in this current proposal. As such I really am in the dark as to exactly what they are doing and conversely as previous posters seem to be asking, CLF has no information other than third hand on what I did.

I think anyone who attempts to provide this service is brave and should be complimented simply because they are stepping up, putting their own money on the line and are demonstrating good free enterprise and entrepreneurial spirit. I notice all the people who are criticising and questioning this proposal, without exception, do not have one dime on the line on this venture, yet they feel empowered to question everything about the proposal from the web designer, logo to the vessel etc. Well I also do not have any financial interest in this venture, yet now I am going to post, I hope I behave.

As when I started I see much public scepticism and questioning of the potential long term viability of the proposed service. Does this same behaviour occur when a new retail store or restaurant opens in Gibsons? Mr. Shaker is not the first to try this venture and he won’t be the last, but a pattern of negative comments occur whenever anyone proposes this service. A new operator is willing to invest in Gibsons and they are always met with negative comments, I can’t see how this helps the possibility of success, in fact it is a contributing factor to failure, as people are slow to respond to the new service due to the negative comments. I do not see this activity in other areas around the world when new services are proposed, it seems unique to Gibsons.

There are many potential areas where CLF could fail, which is the case with any new venture. 85% of all new businesses fail in the first year, this service is not protected from that basic fact. That being said, CLF does not need to be reminded all the time, they are risking their own money.

From what I have read, I only have one concern for CLF in their approach. That is in the area of tourism. In my case, getting involved with the tourism industry was a contributing factor but not the main cause of the shutdown of the service. Since then, in dealing with passenger operations around the world, I cannot think, off the top of my head, of any where the same vessel or even the same operator is in both the commuter market and the tourism market. (I know some will prove me wrong on this point, there has to me one) The basic fact is the needs are different for the two different markets. In the 80’s business bible “In search of Excellence” there is a line, which has become very true to me. The line is “Stick to the knitting” in effect stay in your primary business area and do not get distracted. In my consulting practice I see this as a true statement over and over again, where my clients get distracted from their primary target market and service, they have problems. From reading the posts from Peter Green I see a split in the focus and market, which based on my experience and the experience of many others, will be a significant potential risk to the long term success.

I think Sydney Australia is the best example of a truly vibrant and successful marine passenger industry. For those not familiar with Sydney, the harbour is full of traffic; there is only one main bridge so most cross harbour traffic is marine, and passenger only. There is everything from yellow cabs on the water (Yes they are yellow, little yellow RIB’s with canvas cabins) to large displacement hull 1,000 passenger only commuter ferries. The harbour area is very people friendly, unlike Vancouver, and climate is much warmer than Vancouver. The entire harbour is protected so the small vessels are not a problem. At the main terminal (Circular Quay, which would equate to our Seabus terminal, Vancouver side) there are six terminals each with four berths. There is a vessel coming and going all the time. Of the six terminals five are dedicated to commuters and one is dedicated to tourism, they do not share terminals. There are many operators in both the commuter and tourism market, but even they keep apart, their vessels are very different. Throughout the harbour there are, what I would call, Bus Stops for the commuter vessels. There is lots of activity in this industry in Sydney and they are very successful at it. I just returned from one engagement in Sydney and I have two more scheduled for the rest of 2008 and just yesterday the client I just returned from called me and referred me to another operator with more work. Sydney has a lot of things working right in the marine passenger business, and their growth is amazing. But to get back to the point, they are very successful in this business, but they do not mix commuters and tourism, at all.

In my opinion the commuters are the real market on this route, and distraction from the real market will only harm CLF both short and long term. The demographics and statistics of BC Ferries route 3 will confirm the tourism market is not a factor; it is locals, and commuters on that route. Route 1 and 2 are different demographics to route 3.

I think it was Guest 121 who said “promises of tourism revenue is not worth a dime” to paraphrase. In my case, certainly the tourism revenue did not get delivered as promised, but I would also agree the Georgia Master was not appropriate for tourism and my model was based on commuters not tourism. It was a mistake for me to even entertain entering the tourism market with the Georgia Master and the business model I had. In that case I listened to ill-advised individuals who misrepresented the situation to both parties. I guess that would be good advice for CLF, be careful who you listen to, it is your money not theirs.

The basic concept of needing multiple revenue sources is not only sound, it is required; I would suggest tourism is not sound, it is a distraction. Any additional revenue should be derived from sources that compliment the core service (Coffee and snacks) but must not distract operations. Tourism is a distraction, with little upside potential. With the Georgia Master, I did find that sponsorship deals are sound if the client pays their bill. It is well known that I ended up being forced to go to court to get the Tourism Association to pay their bill. In the end they did not have the money to meet their obligations anyway; they folded without ever paying their bill. The Tourism Association aside the others involved in sponsorship did pay and that revenue helped a ton. Since then I have done many other sponsorship deals. We all see the 2010 deal on BC Ferries. How many millions did 2010 pay BC Ferries? (I do wish I had done that deal) Many people under estimate the value and power of sponsorship. In one project I worked on their budget for revenue from sponsorship was $7000 before I was invited in, after one year the revenue was $250,000 and that project currently earns over $500,000 per year on sponsorship. The right sponsorship deal works wonders, and it seems everyone is doing it now. Sponsorship provides revenue but does not have any impact on operations. In effect it is found revenue.

Other than that, it would seem the service should be fine and operate fine for up to about five years. I would expect that for the initial stages BC Ferries will give lip service and be publicly supportive, but in the back ground they will be watching and learning. At about the five year time frame I would expect BC Ferries will become a problem. When I shut down the Georgia Master Service in the end, I choose to shut the service down because I was informed there was no possible future. I received a call from a Victoria reporter who had received an internal BC Ferries report about future BC Ferries plans. The report basically stated that BC Ferries view on the Gibsons to Vancouver passenger service was that if I was to succeed long term they would enter the market, if not they would not enter the market. In effect I would fail no matter what I did. This occurred just when I was at the point where I knew I had to either purchase a vessel or shut it down. I made the decision to shut it down, I stopped funding the company, and attempted an orderly shutdown, the only flaw was the funds expected from the tourism contract never did get paid so there was a small short fall in the end, rather than a small surplus as expected. If all the bills had been paid, the financial picture would have been a wash, not good after all that work, but that is where it would have stood.

I guess for the community who cares about the long term future of CLF, if CLF lasts to the five year point and BC Ferries still has the same approach, the service will be replaced with a larger, faster and more comfortable vessel. That would be good for the community, not good for CLF.

As for me, I will use the service as long as it is available. As a non resident, but a regular weekend visitor, I think it will be great. It also will reduce my need to bring a vehicle to the Sunshine Coast, which is good. With BC Ferries I need to drive on so I can drive to Gibsons to get to my boat. With this service I can leave my car in Vancouver, and hop the boat to Gibsons, walk to my boat and that is great. I hope I can reserve, yes I will gladly pay a fee for the privilege of a reserved seat on Friday night and Monday morning. $24 return trip, I will pay in a heartbeat, sign me up. My enthusiasm is partly due to the fact I am not a daily commuter, Guest 121 comment about the needs of the daily commuter is very accurate, they will take time to develop trust, but in the end they will fill the boat to capacity for the first run of the day.

Good luck Peter, I will be onboard this summer for sure, please reserve me a good seat.