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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 1, 2008 11:01:21 GMT -8
Thanks Mr. 101.
I really like how this Coastal Link thread does have something for everyone, and how everyone is approaching it from his/her area of interest/expertise.
As for my own interest/expertise, I enjoy the experience of travel and of metaphorically musing about things I've experienced in travel. So I suppose that I'll have to wait until I've ridden in Coastal Link's boat before I can make my contribution to this thread, and the I'll be able to tell you how the trip felt.
I'll make that my summer project...
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Post by tempest on Jul 1, 2008 11:24:00 GMT -8
There appears to be some confusion here with the engine. I understood it to be a Dae Woo and that they are associated with Doo San. The local dealer is Klassen Engine Sales in Richmond. My issue is that everytime someone on this coast has gone away from the big four, Cat, Detroit, EMD,or Cummins, customers have been very badly let down or had the living s*&t hosed out of them. The list is endless and includes MTU, MAN, Deutz, Stork, Stork Werkspoor, Allis Chalmers, Rentjbach, and Mitsubishi. In many cases the initial product was cheap to get it out into the market but the customer was ultimately let down and in the end, many of the engines and their supply in BC was discontinued.
It's hard to start a project such as this with an unknown commodity.
Mr. Horn, your comments concerning the naysayers is valid, but unwarrented. When WMG were looking at flashing up the cats, they did a lot of market research that included canvassing BCFS customers to determine what kind of service the customer wanted, price points, price elasticity, origins and destinations and a whole realm of other market conditions. Has anyone who currently travels the Queen of Surrey ever been canvassed or participated in any market surveys sponsored by CLF, Astrolabe, or anyone else for that matter? I think not. Many of the voices you hear here are ferry riders and customers. Who would know better than them what they want to ride on, what kind of service they want, what kind of parking or transit connections they may need. And yes, they probably know a thing or two about boats, what makes a good one and what makes a bad one.
Don't disregard what they have to say because many may very know know of what they speak!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 1, 2008 11:36:28 GMT -8
Mr. Horn, your comments concerning the naysayers is valid, but unwarrented. Don't disregard what they have to say because many may very know know of what they speak! Actually, I wasn't commenting specifically on naysayers, but at the interests/agendas of posters to this specific-thread.. I was just wondering about the reason for various regular posters' interest in this Coastal Link topic. The "regular guest" posts always make me curious, as well as those who ask lots of questions without explaining why they are so interested. Your own Tempest posts are easy to understand because I know where you're coming from, as you've given enough clues in your various posts are what you're interested in, and why. Same thing with regular-guest #121, who responded to a similar type of query from me, which then allowed me to better understand his point of view. For me, I don't want to disregard what any of these posters have to say. But sometimes I need some help in first understanding where they're coming from, what their interest is, and why they care about this issue. That makes it easier for me to appreciate and evaluate their comments. Otherwise it's just a bunch of similar-sounding generic guest names that could be anyone with any level of experience in the issue. Fair? (the "valid but unwarranted" comment seemed contradictory to me, even after checking my dictionary....)
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Post by Guest 101 on Jul 1, 2008 13:07:06 GMT -8
Some people have an interest in Ferries, or even a passion in them – or may even work in a business that has a link to them. So in asking question – it some times full fills the curiosity you have. Take an interest in say a Classic car. Most people would go out and find out as much about the car – the period it was built in and just about every little detail there is associated with that car. You can also say the same about members on this forum – who ask question hoping that other members may have the knowledge they currently lack or miss.
I have absolutely no knowledge in a Ship’s Horn…but I do know a man who does on this forum, therefore I might be just that little bit more educated in all aspects of a ferry – including it’s horn and the different tones it makes.
I wonder what sort of thread we would have – if Harbourlynx was been set-up now. We would of course be offering Bill McKay all sorts of advice under the sun and best wishes in making it a success. So in posing a lot of question to Peter Green and his team… we …just maybe able to help…or show the way that people could be thinking. As previously stated now may people on this forum have ever answered or helped in a Q&A put out by BC Ferries or any of there marketing people on a route or service they are thinking or offering or even stopping / changing?
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Post by tempest on Jul 1, 2008 13:42:38 GMT -8
Mr Horn,
I would suppose that did sound contradictory....
I suppose what I meant to say was "Your questioning motive and interest is valid. Your 'what appeared to be questioning a right to say anything' seemed unwarranted.
What I am having so much trouble with this particular proposal is that comers seem not to do their homework. Sometimes doing your homework requires you to walk away. Geoff McNeil should have done that initially with Harbourlynx. Walked away that is. But, in his passion to get the project off the ground, he didn't. He signed the bad deals with the landlords, forged ahead and bought a bad boat, the company spent millions on it and their leases, and did not survive as a result.
As I have questioned Peter, more than once, where did they get their projections from? Did anyone dig deeper and do origin/destination sampling? Did anyone find out what calculations a customer was going to do to compare one service vs the other. In Puget Sound customers did that. They asked what would my daily costs be including travelling time, parking, additional add ons like trains and buses. One of Harbourlynx's downfalls was taking raw data and running with it without taking into account the value of the data. I am fearful that is what may be happening here.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jul 1, 2008 13:58:17 GMT -8
These days with the web being what it is people can assume all sorts of identities either real or false, make all sorts of claims, and put out questions, and comments without imputinity etc. etc.
Someone could be a member of the media in disguise hoping to uncover some dirt or info for a scoup or article. An easy way to do your research just firing out questions on a forum.
Someone could be a potential customer. The tone of some of the comments seems kind of extreme for that though. Either you buy the service or you don't. We aren't talking a contract for servicing a major piece of equipment you go out on the limb and buy for your business and house. Then you are on the hook for ongoing support and if the company goes under you are screwed. BCFC isn't going anywhere so it isn't as if if Coastal Link goes under you are left without any options. Go back to what you are doing before if they do.
Someone could be a ferry/transportation enthusiast as many on this forum are. Their knowledge and experience could lead them to be very inquisitive.
Finally someone could be the competition and under whatever guise be on this forum to seed discontent even before the service is started, be actively seeking proprietary information to use in their own plans, and/or just learn as much as they can. All is fair in love and war. This is not unusual and any smart business person will do all they can to learn as much as they can and even, depending on their morals, do as much as they can to shore up their own service up to and often exceeding what the law allows.
Long story short, I am not questioning the usefulness of people to ask questions on a forum like this, to enjoy being armchair quarterbacks (a great exercise for some of the younger folks on this forum and kind of a crash course in business startups), and any other number of possibilities. I do think that a good attitude in life is to question everything before buying into it, and triple question anything on the web as well.
However, I find it very interesting the underlying attitude of some of the posts. That is what makes me pause, suspicious and begin to wonder.
Starting/running/and dealing with the daily stuff of running a business is tedious, time consuming, especially starting a new one properly. Meeting with people is a major black hole of time. To assume that since someone who isn't posting to this forum on as frequent a basis as someone expects, is a sign of problem is a huge leap. Maybe/maybe not. Ah maybe that is true, however maybe it is just the person is busy with the heaps of forms and paper our governments require and doing the real stuff to make a business successful. This forum isn't the board of directors with say over how a company is run, nor the right to demand information and expect it to be done on a specific timetable.
How many seats will people on this forum fill on Coastal Links ferry on a daily basis? If the answer was 100% then I would expect a whole lot of attention better be paid here. If one seat... and are posting here too often just for enthusiasts or local naysayers, you are wasting your time when you should be out working your real customers and coming to this forum to learn and keep this constituency updated now and then.
I don't have a crystal ball and can't predict how successful Coastal Link will be. I hope they are, as I have said before would like to see a whole range of options to get people off the roads. I have to re-adjust to BC pace of traffic the first few days everytime I visit. As I say often, the drive up Granville from the Airport to Downtown is always a bit of a culture readjustment to me. Maybe some of the sceptics will turn out to be right, maybe not. However, I think people read too much into things and only look for what they want to see, rather than look at the facts and wait for enough information to actually come to a conclusion.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 1, 2008 15:15:11 GMT -8
Some people have an interest in Ferries, or even a passion in them – or may even work in a business that has a link to them. So in asking question – it some times full fills the curiosity you have. Well said, sir. Thanks for that explanation & the car analogy. ---------------------- As previously stated now may people on this forum have ever answered or helped in a Q&A put out by BC Ferries or any of there marketing people on a route or service they are thinking or offering or even stopping / changing? I haven't had this experience re route offering/changing objective. The closest thing I've participated in was a BCFS online survey re CoastSavers, which have an impact on marketing a route (but not stopping it....).
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Post by Scott on Jul 1, 2008 15:18:35 GMT -8
Don't read too much into someone not posting for a few days... it's a long weekend for a lot of people.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 1, 2008 15:22:17 GMT -8
Mr Horn, I would suppose that did sound contradictory.... I suppose what I meant to say was "Your questioning motive and interest is valid. Your 'what appeared to be questioning a right to say anything' seemed unwarranted. Thanks Mr. Tempest, for that explanation. I appreciate the 2nd part about "what appeared..." because I'm interested in how my comments/questions are perceived re being contrary to my intentions, and highlighting areas where I need to be careful in how I come across. So thanks for that feedback. And thanks for your postings in this thread....I'm enjoying reading all the comments, in spite of my limitations in adding much of anything to the discussions so far (but I'm waiting to take a trip on the boat so that I can do "my thing" and write up a travel report re the trip).
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Post by Ferry Rider on Jul 1, 2008 15:27:22 GMT -8
When WMG were looking at flashing up the cats, they did a lot of market research that included canvassing BCFS customers to determine what kind of service the customer wanted, price points, price elasticity, origins and destinations and a whole realm of other market conditions. Has anyone who currently travels the Queen of Surrey ever been canvassed or participated in any market surveys sponsored by CLF, Astrolabe, or anyone else for that matter? I think not. I recall BCF doing studies of commuters about 10 years ago on the Queen of Surrey on the subject of passenger ferry service. Also when the Georgia Master started there was another survey and after the Georgia Master was running for a few years, just before it shut down there was another survey. So yes there have been market surveys in teh past, just not so recent.
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Post by landlocked on Jul 1, 2008 15:38:35 GMT -8
Well Gentlemen,
What a lot of info!
Tempest is correct in his info concerning HL. There were a whole bunch of things that went wrong, bad information, bad boat, bad decisions and so much passion for the project that many, many people got caught up in it all! Having said that, the most valiant of efforts. I have to agree, if I ever got involved again, I'd make sure I had the answer to a LOT of questions. And then I'd ask more. Tony Wanless from BC Business magazine did a little expose on HL after it went down. The main thrust of his article was the lack of backup plans...B,C,D, etc. All of these have to looked at PRIOR to start up. All the ducks must be in order.
Forget the passion, it's a business. I love boats just as much as the other guy, but I don't get attached to it. I hated the HarbourLynx. It was never the right boat as far as I was concerned. Then when I had to approve the repair and parts bills, I hated it even MORE! We were playing the big boys game head to head, but we were trying to use a Maserati compared to their Dodge Caravan.
One thing I will give Ihab credit for. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Can I say it enough? As a business principle that's great. I can't say I'm fond of his boat from an asthetics point of view. It is simple though.
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Post by landlocked on Jul 1, 2008 15:44:13 GMT -8
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 1, 2008 17:18:45 GMT -8
I have been watching the Water as Peter has told us. Nothing has arrived in Gibsons yet. No silver vessel.
No word from Peter on this forum either.....
From what I hear from the scuttle butt around Gibsons, Ihab lost his temper with the GLHA and left the last meeting saying he will go to Naniamo. He claims the GLHA won't "negotiate" but he was the one who left in a huff.
It seems odd to me that Ihab has the secret to make this service work where others have failed, he has the golden nugget of knowledge others fail to have, which will make him so successful, but he can't seem to pay market rent for a slip in Gibsons. How could $1,500 per month make any difference when his fuel bill just went up about $1,500 this last weekend with the new fuel tax and company add on's. It would seem the moorage at Gibsons was insignificant compared to his fuel or wages or the moorage in Vancouver, which would be drop off only and not overnight. Translink must be charging double what the GLHA is asking, so what is the deal?
That is just based on the scuttle butt around Gibsons this weekend.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Jul 1, 2008 21:41:01 GMT -8
Back in reply #66, Peter Green told us that the Coastal Runner was not designed for the open waters of Georgia Strait. Yet, the radio report that Hardy posted on June 19 had Capt. Shaker threatening to shift his attention to a Nanaimo service if negotiations with the GLHA didn't work out. Even on a downtown to Gibsons route, the boat is going to be traversing a fair stretch of open water. The pictures posted so far don't inspire confidence. I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Lasqueti ferry, the Centurion VII- a boat of similar length and passenger capacity. lasqueti.ca/island-info/lasqueti_ferry#galleryThe pictures do indeed suggest more of a water taxi. Fifty minutes to downtown, fully loaded, on that one little prop? I sure hope you're right... I agree with those who feel we shouldn't read too much into Peter Green's recent absence from the forum. If it were me, I would probably feel that there are only so many ways you can answer people who are accusing you of not having talked to enough experts, or done enough research. There's a company to get under way, and parrying criticisms on a small internet discussion forum is probably not a key component to getting that done. I very much appreciate the time he's taken to answer our questions, I wish the company well, but, yikes, things do seem a bit dodgy...
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Post by tempest on Jul 1, 2008 21:54:18 GMT -8
Neil,
I operated the Centurion VII for two weeks shortly after she was first put on the run. She is a fine vessel, however takes a little getting used to. She was built by Shore Boat Builders and I believe she was only about 650HP with two Volvos. The interesting thing was that she was counter-rotating propellers like the subchasers during the war. She did about 18K, which wouldn't be enough for this run, but she was still a nice little boat to operate!
Oh my, but what a surprise that Ihab and the GLHA are scrapping. Let's see, just like I said, you are in no bargaining position when you are committed to the project (your boat is 90% completed) and all of a sudden you go to a government body, who now believe THEY hold all the cards! Let me guess...they upped the rent? What a surprise!!! So, you're going to park the Coastal Runner and build a jumbo version and be the saviour for all those wanting to back and forth to Nanaimo. Good luck with that.
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Canadian Documentary
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Post by Canadian Documentary on Jul 1, 2008 23:06:18 GMT -8
There's a guy by the name of Noah how once built a boat and everyone mocked him. Once the boat was built everyone jumped on. Hihi..sorry im such a dork...I like the look of the boat, hopefully it will be economic on gas, meet the time requirements and the prop will be good for logs in the water. There's so many logs in the water.... In the end if the price is right and the service is competitive it will work out. My main question is how will you deal with the charge vs BCF who charges 1way when your in Vancouver. I'm a middle class guy and i'll save a buck where I can, so if BCF will be free to Vancouver and you guys will charge both ways i'll use you one way and BCF the other. We can commute with drivers on the ferry or we all got friends in Vancouver who can pick us up and drop us off downtown when comes time to go back to the coast. We also got friends who drive and can give us a ride. Either way as a potential customer my loyalty remains in the cost vs time. Also it will be interesting which market you'll aim, Commuters, tourist, weekenders etc, it's easier to hit one bird with one stone, than three birds with the same stone.
Maybe you should have a seniors discount you'll attract 95% of the coast. Pardon my lack of knowledge in statistics. This forum is very entertaining people love it and people hate it, but everyone makes a good point.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Jul 2, 2008 3:23:15 GMT -8
My main question is how will you deal with the charge vs BCF who charges 1way when your in Vancouver. I'm a middle class guy and i'll save a buck where I can, so if BCF will be free to Vancouver and you guys will charge both ways i'll use you one way and BCF the other. The thing to remember is you are paying for your return trip from Langdale when you leave from Horseshoe Bay. The idea of someone taking the ferry to Vancouver and then riding the Coastal Link back was brought up earlier in this thread. IMO, Coastal Link will have to figure out how to deal with this because having to deadhead the boat to Vancouver is going to cost them money just as the "free" trip from Langdale to Horseshoe Bay will cost BCFS. I operated the Centurion VII for two weeks shortly after she was first put on the run. She is a fine vessel, however takes a little getting used to. She was built by Shore Boat Builders and I believe she was only about 650HP with two Volvos. The interesting thing was that she was counter-rotating propellers like the subchasers during the war. She did about 18K, which wouldn't be enough for this run, but she was still a nice little boat to operate! Unless I misunderstood the comment, it should be pointed out that counter-rotating screws are typical for a twin...especially a drivetrain from Volvo. Or were you stating the wheels were counter rotating on a common shaftline? Again, not uncommon on twins anymore, though a lot less common when the Centurion VII was built. In either case, no need for thrust induced yaw when it is so easy to engineer out on a twin...be it boat or plane.
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Post by Guest 101 on Jul 2, 2008 8:23:58 GMT -8
Peter,
You mention in a previous post that you went to pick up the crew. Are we to believe - right or wrong that the Vessel was built here in BC - but you and the Captain are coming from back East and the Crew, are they also from back East - from one of his other projects?
So very little is been sourced here in BC - a part from the vessel itself? Would this be correct?
I would love to have "ride" on her - so do you plan to say give discounted tickets to members of this forum? {well if you don't ask - you don't get} sorry if it sounds cheesy to ask....but every dollar helps these days.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Jul 2, 2008 9:36:03 GMT -8
I would love to have "ride" on her - so do you plan to say give discounted tickets to members of this forum? {well if you don't ask - you don't get} sorry if it sounds cheesy to ask....but every dollar helps these days. Hmmh.. so let me get this straight, Cascade... you won't post as a forum member, but if someone offers a discount to forum members, you'll be at the head of the queue. Cheesy? Guess that's one word for it.
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Post by Guest 121 on Jul 2, 2008 10:13:36 GMT -8
I would love to have "ride" on her - so do you plan to say give discounted tickets to members of this forum? {well if you don't ask - you don't get} sorry if it sounds cheesy to ask....but every dollar helps these days. Hmmh.. so let me get this straight, Cascade... you won't post as a forum member, but if someone offers a discount to forum members, you'll be at the head of the queue. Cheesy? Guess that's one word for it. Gee, so after most of us have been giving Peter a rough ride with lots of questions, comments etc. most quite negative, then there is the request for a discount ride. Cheesy is an understatement. IN any case CLF needs every dollar they can get, to just survive. I do just fine, no discount needed, if I want to take a ride, I will pay full price. Although after seeing the pictures, not sure at all if I will trust the vessel. Certainly will not take it if I have an important meeting that day. Not sure if it will make it everyday. Still watching the water, still no boat.
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Post by landlocked on Jul 2, 2008 12:45:12 GMT -8
I am surprised Peter hasn't been on since the 26th. He seemed to be on the forum sometimes 2-3 times a day, then nothing. I guess, as John H says, don't put too much stock in it. Makes you wonder just a tad though. Would be nice to know how things are going.
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Post by landlocked on Jul 5, 2008 6:29:34 GMT -8
Good Morning,
Has anyone seen ANYTHING, or for that matter, heard ANYTHING?
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Post by tempest on Jul 5, 2008 7:37:08 GMT -8
Hot off the press:
Start-up planned for mid-July PASSENGER FERRY By Ian Jacques/Editor With a docking agreement still not in place, Coastal Link Ferries (CLF) now has plans to start their passenger ferry service in Gibsons by mid-July. CLF has been undergoing sea trials on its vessel the Coastal Runner while behind the scenes trying to get a docking agreement in place with the Gibsons Landing Harbour Authority (GLH).
The two sides were to have met last Saturday, but CLF chief operating officer captain Ihab Shaker cancelled that meeting. “I don’t mind meeting if there is something to discuss, but what they are asking is unreasonable,” Shaker said. “It’s way over what the Sea Bus terminal is asking. I will pay, but it has to be reasonable. There is nothing to negotiate. I need to have the business going. I can’t afford to make promises and know that I can’t deliver.”
When asked if a deal is not in place what CLF’s plans are, Shaker said he wouldn’t discuss that, only saying “some way we will get a deal done.”
Shaker said he had to cancel the meeting as Transport Canada needed more time on the vessel last Saturday.
“Transport Canada has been trying to help expedite the process, but this is a required process of any vessel for the safety and security of all, so any delay here is always a good thing,” added CLF marketing director Peter Green.
Carol Doyle with the GLH said on Monday they are prepared to meet with Shaker at any time to discuss a docking deal.
“The ball is back in his court. All he needs to do is call us and we can have a meeting,” said Doyle.
“We are hopeful that a negotiated agreement with the Gibsons Landing Harbour Authority will soon be in place,” added Green. “This process has been stalled by a series of issues that we believe can be easily resolved.”
The Coastal Runner can hold 71 passengers, plus crew. The vessel is designed to operate as a transportation vessel so while interior comforts may not compare to the Queen of Surrey, she will save time for our commuters, Green said.
“We anticipate that the average downtown Vancouver commuter will save at least one hour of his or her day and some much more,” Green said. “We hope to avoid any unfulfilled promises and are focusing on a mid-July service launch, with a full schedule commencing on Aug. 1. With so many parties involved — Gibsons Landing Harbour Authority, Transport Canada, etc. — we are open to ensuring everything is in good order before we launch the service. We are anxious — as anxious as many commuters — to commence service.”
Green said CLF plans to make a promotional visit to Gibsons soon to allow people to inspect the vessel and perhaps take a short spin to see how it functions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2008 21:08:45 GMT -8
So how long was I out? Wow. I go away for a week and you all seem to really miss me! Actually, I didn't go anywhere, but we've been preoccupied with other issues, activities, events and celebrations. It seems like we have it all figured out here. Everything. That's great, I think we've got it covered. It's kind of like Super Bowl. Anyone been to a Super Bowl? I went to a couple. Funny, both times I saw San Francisco beat the Bengals. But the Super Bowl is a wonderful time where, for 2 weeks, Sportswriters and fans and broadcasters and pundits and electricians and clerks and pipefitters and more all talk about the "big game", estimate the score, predict the outcome, point out the key matchups, ogle cheerleaders and all the rest. A friend of mine from the Buffalo Bills (he played in 4 straight superbowls, and lost) said "it's a 3-hour game, but it gets played 25,000 times in those two weeks. So the coming weeks will reveal some answers, show some performance stats, prove some of us right and some of us wrong. I look forward to the game. Let's just play it. I'm so glad to be back! I missed you all. Happy Sunday everyone!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2008 21:21:08 GMT -8
Hey, the crew is from HERE. All of them. Even the little ones with the gnome hats who sit on our lawn. But the crew is all from here. Every last one of them, bless their Canadian hearts. They are true BC folk....
Staff will be all from here. At least from Vancouver or the sunshine coast, not my living room.
Ihab Shaker's wife is from Vancouver, he's lived here for the past several years. He came here from Egypt, so that's really east.
Ok, I'm from "back east". Kind of. Really far east as well, but not as far as Egypt.
There.
I replied because that meant a lot to me. Ihab Shaker was born in Egypt but has been a Canadian Citizen for nearly 20 years. He takes the Canadian, and the local, commitment very seriously.
My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of subsidy Of thee I sing....
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