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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Oct 29, 2013 19:30:34 GMT -8
I think Elwha would work better at Bremerton than it does in the Islands for 2 reasons: 1. The Elwha is more top-heavy than the other Supers, and Bremerton has calmer water than the Islands. 2. I'm not an expert on this, but to my understanding, the ferries have a tier 1 and tier 2 capacity. Tier 1 means the vessel has enough life-rafting for everyone. Tier 2 means the vessel does not. On all the supers, max. capacity of tier 2 is 2,020 passengers&crew. However, on Hyak, Kalletain, and Yakima, max. capacity of tier 1 is only 400 passengers&crew. On the Elwha, this number is 1,020 passengers&crew. the Elwha might be able to make very busy sailings @ Bremerton without going up to tier 2. I would agree with you about the reason why the Elwha could be on the Bremerton. But I think the state would prefer speed over the tier levels of the boats; just like people who take the boat. Do the tier levels mean how crew are on the boat for the amount of passengers?
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Oct 29, 2013 19:42:55 GMT -8
I think Elwha would work better at Bremerton than it does in the Islands for 2 reasons: 1. The Elwha is more top-heavy than the other Supers, and Bremerton has calmer water than the Islands. 2. I'm not an expert on this, but to my understanding, the ferries have a tier 1 and tier 2 capacity. Tier 1 means the vessel has enough life-rafting for everyone. Tier 2 means the vessel does not. On all the supers, max. capacity of tier 2 is 2,020 passengers&crew. However, on Hyak, Kalletain, and Yakima, max. capacity of tier 1 is only 400 passengers&crew. On the Elwha, this number is 1,020 passengers&crew. the Elwha might be able to make very busy sailings @ Bremerton without going up to tier 2. I would agree with you about the reason why the Elwha could be on the Bremerton. But I think the state would prefer speed over the tier levels of the boats; just like people who take the boat. Do the tier levels mean how crew are on the boat for the amount of passengers? Elwha would need to slow down in Rich, but she has a higher speed overall, and could make that lost time up in the open sound.
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Oct 29, 2013 19:57:32 GMT -8
I would agree with you about the reason why the Elwha could be on the Bremerton. But I think the state would prefer speed over the tier levels of the boats; just like people who take the boat. Do the tier levels mean how crew are on the boat for the amount of passengers? Elwha would need to slow down in Rich, but she has a higher speed overall, and could make that lost time up in the open sound. She doesn't have a greater overall speed than the rest of the Supers, even though the WSF page says so. She might even have a lower speed than the rest of them due to her deeper draft (WSF says its only 3'', but it's actually more).
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Post by Kahloke on Oct 30, 2013 4:45:49 GMT -8
I hate to say it, but it is likely that we will continue to see Kitsap at Bremerton for some time to come Yes, at least when the Walla Walla has to fill in. But it shouldn't be on the run when a super or the Walla Walla is on standby. Also no more Sealth on the run! I fully agree with you. I don't believe an Issaquah-class vessel should be on the Bremerton run anymore. But, I also do not think we will see Kitsap pulled from Bremerton until Samish enters the fleet, at the earliest. Personally, I hope Samish gets assigned to Anacortes which will free up another Super for Bremerton.
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Post by compdude787 on Oct 30, 2013 7:50:45 GMT -8
I would agree with you about the reason why the Elwha could be on the Bremerton. But I think the state would prefer speed over the tier levels of the boats; just like people who take the boat. Do the tier levels mean how crew are on the boat for the amount of passengers? Elwha would need to slow down in Rich, but she has a higher speed overall, and could make that lost time up in the open sound. Yes, Elwha would need to slow down in Rich Passage because of her increased wake. And, all the Supers have the same speed, don't they?
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Oct 30, 2013 8:09:31 GMT -8
Yes, at least when the Walla Walla has to fill in. But it shouldn't be on the run when a super or the Walla Walla is on standby. Also no more Sealth on the run! I fully agree with you. I don't believe an Issaquah-class vessel should be on the Bremerton run anymore. But, I also do not think we will see Kitsap pulled from Bremerton until Samish enters the fleet, at the earliest. Personally, I hope Samish gets assigned to Anacortes which will free up another Super for Bremerton. From what Mosley said back this summer at the FAC meeting, while there would be more times than not we have a larger vessel than the Kitsap, but the Kitsap still would be permanently assigned to Bremerton until a 3rd vessel is constructed.
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Post by Kahloke on Oct 30, 2013 9:26:59 GMT -8
From what Mosley said back this summer at the FAC meeting, while there would be more times than not we have a larger vessel than the Kitsap, but the Kitsap still would be permanently assigned to Bremerton until a 3rd vessel is constructed. Yes, the 3rd 144 would/could fully replace Kitsap at Bremerton permanently. In the meantime, I hope WSF will, at the very least, put 2 larger vessels at Bremerton during the summer months, and I believe they could do that after Samish enters service. I know I'm a glutton for punishment every time I submit a fleet deployment proposal, but here are my ideas on how it could go after the 2nd and 3rd Olympic Class vessels enter service (please-oh-please-oh please build the 3rd one!) Summer Schedule Fleet Deployment after Samish enters service:PD-TAHL: Chetzemoka FAU-VSH-SOU: Cathlamet, Issaquah, Tillikum SEA-BRE: Kaleetan, Walla Walla SEA-BAI: Tacoma, Wenatchee EDM-KIN: Puyallup, Spokane MUK-CLI: Kittitas, TokitaePT-KEY: Kennewick, Salish ANA-SJI: Hyak, Samish, Yakima ANA-SID: Chelan INT ISL: Sealth standby: Elwha, Hiyu, Kitsap retired: Evergreen State, Klahowya note: the reason I did not put Kitsap at F-V-S in this rotation is because WSF will have just written the schedule for 2 124's and 1 87/90. It would take another re-write of the schedule to accommodate 3 124's. That is something that will eventually need to be done, but it probably won't happen for awhile.Summer Schedule Fleet Deployment after the 3rd 144 enters service:PD-TAHL: Chetzemoka FAU-VSH-SOU: Cathlamet, Issaquah, Kitsap SEA-BRE: N144-3, Hyak SEA-BAI: Tacoma, Wenatchee EDM-KIN: Puyallup, Walla Walla MUK-CLI: Kittitas, TokitaePT-KEY: Kennewick, Salish ANA-SJI: Kaleetan, Samish, Yakima ANA-SID: Chelan INT ISL: Sealth standby: Elwha, Hiyu, Spokane retired: Tillikum note 1: after the 3rd 144 enters service, the F-V-S schedule will need to be adjusted again to accommodate a 3rd Issaquah-Class vessel, or WSF will have to keep Tillikum around longer than 60 years. My scenario shows the retirement of Tillikum and the deployment of Kitsap as the 3rd F-V-S vessel, which I think makes more sense.
note 2: I've assigned Hyak to Bremerton to serve alongside the 3rd new vessel in anticipation that Hyak will be hybridized, and will be able to more fully take advantage of that technology on the Bremerton route vs the San Juans (i.e. more dockings on the Bremerton run). That would put Kaleetan back in the San Juans, her rightful place IMO.
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Post by chokai on Oct 30, 2013 13:31:28 GMT -8
note 2: I've assigned Hyak to Bremerton to serve alongside the 3rd new vessel in anticipation that Hyak will be hybridized, and will be able to more fully take advantage of that technology on the Bremerton route vs the San Juans (i.e. more dockings on the Bremerton run). That would put Kaleetan back in the San Juans, her rightful place IMO. Looking at the schedule in the course of the day in the San Juans she's going to dock at least 17 times in the #2 position with the current schedule. Only 14 at Bremerton if she's the #1 boat @ Bremerton. Bremerton needs passenger comfort on a day to day basis and right now the Hyak's current work does not include a passenger cabin refurbishment, just hybridization. (silly I know) On an unrelated topic, I'm not sure where this belief/fact/idea that the Elwha's wake is a major issue at Bremerton came from. Having sailed over many ferries wakes including Walla Walla, Elwha's and various other boats annecdotally my experience is that even laden down as she is her wake is piddly compared to Walla Walla's or even a Issaquah travelling at higher speed. Where's the statement or evidence of this? Obviously one the major reasons you'll rarely see her at Bremerton is compared to the other Supers she is SOLAS certified and she's on the international route much of the year. In addition to that Chelan is often subbing for other Issaquah's throughout the system furthering Elwha's time on that route.
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Post by Kahloke on Oct 30, 2013 13:58:22 GMT -8
Looking at the schedule in the course of the day in the San Juans she's going to dock at least 17 times in the #2 position with the current schedule. Only 14 at Bremerton if she's the #1 boat @ Bremerton. Bremerton needs passenger comfort on a day to day basis and right now the Hyak's current work does not include a passenger cabin refurbishment, just hybridization. (silly I know) Admittedly, I did not look at the schedule. I just assumed there would be more landings in a day on the Bremerton-Seattle run, but apparently I was wrong, so thank you for pointing that out. Having just looked at the current schedule, I counted 16 landings for the #2 boat on the Seattle-Bremerton run. The #2 boat in the San Juans docks 18 times in a day, 20 times on Sundays. The #3 boat in the San Juans docks 14 times, so it is variable up there. And, the #3 vessel in the islands on last summer's schedule, which was Hyak, docked 18 times in a day if you include the final stop at Anacortes after it dead-heads there from Orcas after the final sailing of the night. So, having said all of that, perhaps the San Juans would still be a good place for a hybridized Hyak, after all.
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Post by compdude787 on Oct 30, 2013 14:22:11 GMT -8
On an unrelated topic, I'm not sure where this belief/fact/idea that the Elwha's wake is a major issue at Bremerton came from. Having sailed over many ferries wakes including Walla Walla, Elwha's and various other boats annecdotally my experience is that even laden down as she is her wake is piddly compared to Walla Walla's or even a Issaquah travelling at higher speed. Where's the statement or evidence of this? Obviously one the major reasons you'll rarely see her at Bremerton is compared to the other Supers she is SOLAS certified and she's on the international route much of the year. In addition to that Chelan is often subbing for other Issaquah's throughout the system furthering Elwha's time on that route. To be honest, I haven't really actually compared Elwha's wake to that of another Super. I just thought that she'd have more wake than the other Supers because she has additional ballast in her hull to compensate for her top-heaviness. With additional dead weight in the hull, she sits lower in the water, thus producing more wake and consuming more fuel. That's my basis for the "more wake" claim. But maybe it's not enough wake to make it necessary to slow down in Rich Passage.
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Post by chokai on Oct 30, 2013 15:18:21 GMT -8
Admittedly, I did not look at the schedule. I just assumed there would be more landings in a day on the Bremerton-Seattle run, but apparently I was wrong, so thank you for pointing that out. Having just looked at the current schedule, I counted 16 landings for the #2 boat on the Seattle-Bremerton run. The #2 boat in the San Juans docks 18 times in a day, 20 times on Sundays. The #3 boat in the San Juans docks 14 times, so it is variable up there. And, the #3 vessel in the islands on last summer's schedule, which was Hyak, docked 18 times in a day if you include the final stop at Anacortes after it dead-heads there from Orcas after the final sailing of the night. So, having said all of that, perhaps the San Juans would still be a good place for a hybridized Hyak, after all. I also think she'd be popular with the large enviromentalist population and all the tourists up there. Nice little tout for the fact that Washington is proud of it's status as an extremely "Green" state. From an fuel efficiency perspective one has to wonder if the best place for a hybrid boat would be Mukilteo/Clinton or FVS. But Hyak wouldn't be a good fit there operationally most likely since she's as obnoxious to load as any other Super. If battery and other energy storage technology continues to evolve as it is these days it won't be long before we are talking about borderline "plug in" ferries as being viable on some of our shortest runs.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Oct 30, 2013 15:36:16 GMT -8
note 2: I've assigned Hyak to Bremerton to serve alongside the 3rd new vessel in anticipation that Hyak will be hybridized, and will be able to more fully take advantage of that technology on the Bremerton route vs the San Juans (i.e. more dockings on the Bremerton run). That would put Kaleetan back in the San Juans, her rightful place IMO. Looking at the schedule in the course of the day in the San Juans she's going to dock at least 17 times in the #2 position with the current schedule. Only 14 at Bremerton if she's the #1 boat @ Bremerton. Bremerton needs passenger comfort on a day to day basis and right now the Hyak's current work does not include a passenger cabin refurbishment, just hybridization. (silly I know) That seem odd since the state legislature put a $20 million budget to have her get a true MLU. I think this will change when she gets pulled into the yard to get the hybrid engine put into her. But I do think the Olympic class should get hybrid engines if the Hyak is successful. I think she should be #2 ship with another ship other than the Walla Walla on the Bremerton.
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Post by Kahloke on Oct 30, 2013 15:48:41 GMT -8
Admittedly, I did not look at the schedule. I just assumed there would be more landings in a day on the Bremerton-Seattle run, but apparently I was wrong, so thank you for pointing that out. Having just looked at the current schedule, I counted 16 landings for the #2 boat on the Seattle-Bremerton run. The #2 boat in the San Juans docks 18 times in a day, 20 times on Sundays. The #3 boat in the San Juans docks 14 times, so it is variable up there. And, the #3 vessel in the islands on last summer's schedule, which was Hyak, docked 18 times in a day if you include the final stop at Anacortes after it dead-heads there from Orcas after the final sailing of the night. So, having said all of that, perhaps the San Juans would still be a good place for a hybridized Hyak, after all. I also think she'd be popular with the large enviromentalist population and all the tourists up there. Nice little tout for the fact that Washington is proud of it's status as an extremely "Green" state. From an fuel efficiency perspective one has to wonder if the best place for a hybrid boat would be Mukilteo/Clinton or FVS. But Hyak wouldn't be a good fit there operationally most likely since she's as obnoxious to load as any other Super. If battery and other energy storage technology continues to evolve as it is these days it won't be long before we are talking about borderline "plug in" ferries as being viable on some of our shortest runs. And when I think about it even further, having a hybrid Hyak in the islands really is the best fit due to the longer dwell times at dock. Guess I wasn't really thinking it through when I said it would be better at Bremerton.
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Post by chokai on Oct 30, 2013 21:52:53 GMT -8
That seem odd since the state legislature put a $20 million budget to have her get a true MLU. I think this will change when she gets pulled into the yard to get the hybrid engine put into her. But I do think the Olympic class should get hybrid engines if the Hyak is successful. I think she should be #2 ship with another ship other than the Walla Walla on the Bremerton. That 20 mil covers both the hybrid system (about 11M) and other improvements (about 9). One can hope that she'll get a two'fer but my bet is they'll do the hybrid system first. That will allow them to make sure it works as advertised before throwing millions of dollars into the other stuff. It's really an expirament, I garuntee you they'll push hard for that third Olympic in case something goes wrong on this project.
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Post by Barnacle on Oct 31, 2013 3:55:33 GMT -8
That 20 mil covers both the hybrid system (about 11M) and other improvements (about 9). One can hope that she'll get a two'fer but my bet is they'll do the hybrid system first. That will allow them to make sure it works as advertised before throwing millions of dollars into the other stuff. It's really an expirament, I garuntee you they'll push hard for that third Olympic in case something goes wrong on this project. Or if someone ever does the math and says, "well, we replaced four boats with three; now we're replacing three boats with two; why don't we have any spare boats anymore?"
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Jul 30, 2014 19:14:53 GMT -8
I love thinking of the future. (Well, WSF's future, not the future of our planet, with global warming and contact with a potentially malevolent alien civilization (Hey, I believe.)) Anyways, I have devised some new ideas.
BY SUMMER 2015 M/V Samish will be in service by this time. She should be assigned to the Islands to replace the Hyak (Yes, I have given up on my Elwha to Bremerton Campaign.) Hyak could, realistically, become a third vessel at Kingston for that summer. I also think that they should start re-engineering the KDT's: One per year during the off-season. By 2019, the KDT's will no longer be hopeless money pits. SUMMER 2015 VESSEL POSITIONING Point Defiance: Chetzemoka Vashon: Issaquah, Cathlamet, Sealth Bremerton: Walla walla, Kaleetan Winslow: Tacoma, Wenatchee Kingston: Puyallup, Spokane, Hyak Clinton: Tokitae, Kittitas Coupville: Kennewick, Salish San Juans (Anacortes): Samish, Yakima, Elwha San Juans (Interisland): Tillikum Sidney: Chelan Standby: Klahowya, Kitsap. Retired: Evergreen state, Hiyu
BY SUMMER 2018 The Third Olympic will be in service by this time. I think that this vessel should be SOLAS compliant and assigned the Sidney route. Chelan would be moved to Vashon to replace Sealth. SUMMER 2018 VESSEL POSITIONING Point Defiance: Chetzemoka Vashon: Issaquah, Cathlamet, Chelan Bremerton: Walla walla, Kaleetan Winslow: Tacoma, Wenatchee Kingston: Puyallup, Spokane, Hyak Clinton: Tokitae, Kittitas Coupville: Salish, Kennewick San Juans (Anacortes): Samish, Yakima, Elwha San Juans (Interisland): Sealth Sidney: Oly3 Standby: Tillikum, Kitsap Retired: Klahowya, Evergreen, Hiyu.
BY SUMMER 2028 By this time, the Coupville ferry terminal should be moved out of the harbor, and much larger vessels assigned to the route. In addition, the Triangle should be broken up into the following routes: Southworth-Vashon, Fauntleroy-Vashon, and Southworth-Seattle. Also, a massive class of new ferries should be built to replace the Supers. These ferries should be based on the design of the Olympics, lengthened by 40 feet, for a vehicle capacity of 162. (I subtracted one car from 4 lanes to allow more gently-sloped gallery deck ramps.), as well as an upper passenger cabin level to accommodate more passengers for busy routes such as Bremerton. SUMMER 2028 VESSEL POSITIONING Point Defiance: Chetzemoka Southworth-Seattle: Samish, Chelan Southworth-Vashon: Kennewick Fauntleroy-Vashon: Issaquah, Cathlamet Bremerton: N-162-1, Walla walla Winslow: Tacoma, Wenatchee Kingston: Puyallup, Spokane, N-162-5 Clinton: Tokitae, Kittitas Coupville: N-162-6, N-162-7 San Juans (Anacortes): N-162-2, N-162-3, N-162-4 San Juans (Interisland): Sealth Sidney: Oly3 Standby: Salish, Kitsap Retired: Hiyu, Evergreen, Klahowya, Tillikum, Hyak, Kaleetan, Yakima, Elwha
That's my master plan for WSF's near future.
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Jul 30, 2014 20:05:09 GMT -8
BY SUMMER 2028By this time, the Coup eville ferry terminal should be moved out of the harbor, and much larger vessels assigned to the route. Or just dredge the harbor... In addition, the Triangle should be broken up into the following routes: Southworth-Vashon, Fauntleroy-Vashon, and Southworth-Seattle. Seattle doesn't have the capacity to handle a third route, and there's nowhere to extend the terminal. Also, a massive class of new ferries should be built to replace the Supers. These ferries should be based on the design of the Olympics, lengthened by 40 feet, for a vehicle capacity of 162. (I subtracted one car from 4 lanes to allow more gently-sloped gallery deck ramps.), as well as an upper passenger cabin level to accommodate more passengers for busy routes such as Bremerton. Or you can just widen the Olympics by ~10 ft to allow for one more lane in the middle which bumps your capacity to 161 cars. Just sayin' Also, it should be taken into account that driving is decreasing per-capita in the US and that 15 years from now WSF will probably need more passenger capacity but not necessarily more vehicle capacity. (except for bikes, since biking is on the rise )
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Jul 30, 2014 20:19:54 GMT -8
BY SUMMER 2028By this time, the Coup eville ferry terminal should be moved out of the harbor, and much larger vessels assigned to the route. Or just dredge the harbor... Dredging the harbor is also an option, however, the Coupville terminal is kind of outdated.
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Jul 30, 2014 20:30:35 GMT -8
Or just dredge the harbor... Dredging the harbor is also an option, however, the Coup eville terminal is kind of outdated. The transfer span and bridge are, but the rest of the terminal is fairly new. Think about how much it would cost to replace the transfer span and to dredge the harbor vs. the money it would take to build a brand new terminal.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 30, 2014 20:33:21 GMT -8
There were plans to build a brand new terminal and a second slip 1 1/4 miles to the east of Keystone Harbor, but those got shut down because a certain senator didn't want to see the 'perceived harm' that would bring - as the new plans also called for a new terminal large enough to house ferries that were larger than the Steel Electrics - which were the ferries in service at the time those plans were drawn up.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 30, 2014 20:36:05 GMT -8
BY SUMMER 2028By this time, the Coup eville ferry terminal should be moved out of the harbor, and much larger vessels assigned to the route. Or just dredge the harbor... In addition, the Triangle should be broken up into the following routes: Southworth-Vashon, Fauntleroy-Vashon, and Southworth-Seattle. Seattle doesn't have the capacity to handle a third route, and there's nowhere to extend the terminal. Also, a massive class of new ferries should be built to replace the Supers. These ferries should be based on the design of the Olympics, lengthened by 40 feet, for a vehicle capacity of 162. (I subtracted one car from 4 lanes to allow more gently-sloped gallery deck ramps.), as well as an upper passenger cabin level to accommodate more passengers for busy routes such as Bremerton. Or you can just widen the Olympics by ~10 ft to allow for one more lane in the middle which bumps your capacity to 161 cars. Just sayin' Also, it should be taken into account that driving is decreasing per-capita in the US and that 15 years from now WSF will probably need more passenger capacity but not necessarily more vehicle capacity. (except for bikes, since biking is on the rise ) Driving is only decreasing in the U.S. due to two factors: 1.) Stagnating personal income levels especially among the lower middle and lower class. 2.) Rising fuel costs. If income growth had followed inflation and the consumer price index for the lower and middle class, we wouldn't be having this discussion, nor would we be seeing a decrease in driving habits.
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Post by SolDuc on Jul 30, 2014 20:56:31 GMT -8
Or just dredge the harbor... Seattle doesn't have the capacity to handle a third route, and there's nowhere to extend the terminal. Or you can just widen the Olympics by ~10 ft to allow for one more lane in the middle which bumps your capacity to 161 cars. Just sayin' Also, it should be taken into account that driving is decreasing per-capita in the US and that 15 years from now WSF will probably need more passenger capacity but not necessarily more vehicle capacity. (except for bikes, since biking is on the rise ) Driving is only decreasing in the U.S. due to two factors: 1.) Stagnating personal income levels especially among the lower middle and lower class. 2.) Rising fuel costs. If income growth had followed inflation and the consumer price index for the lower and middle class, we wouldn't be having this discussion, nor would we be seeing a decrease in driving habits. Wait, I'm definitely saying that it's not a bad thing, but that it's better for everyone. And for your list, I'd have to say that people are driving less now due to low road capacity, a lot of competition from other modes which can now be faster, and especially, cheaper and finally a new mindset that a car is not essential and that most of the time it's a burden (at least in the cities). It's not just a money-caused phenomenon.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 30, 2014 21:04:12 GMT -8
When it comes to going places, I would much rather drive my own vehicle, as opposed to public transit. Driving has much more freedom to it (minus the fuel costs) and less restriction as does public transit.
And yes, you're right, low road capacity is a factor, but nowhere near a primary one - and the road capacity issues stems from the fact that America has been taken over by right-wing nutjobs who refuse to lift a red cent in taxes to invest in infrastructure like we did in the 50s and 60s.
I also know people who live in the city and they'd also disagree with your sentiment about cars being a burden. My uncle lives in N. Seattle, and he'd rather drive as opposed to take the bus.
Since 2000, gas prices have skyrocketed in this country. At the same time, since 1980 personal income for the working class in this country has stagnated. In fact, those on the lower rungs of the middle class and the lower class have seen their income decline by 20 percent if you were to factor in the wages of 1980 vs. today.
That alone will cause people to stop driving as much - and it is one of the biggest reasons a lot of people in recent years have chosen to have a 'staycation' - rising fuel costs and stagnating income.
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Jul 30, 2014 21:29:02 GMT -8
When it comes to going places, I would much rather drive my own vehicle, as opposed to public transit. Driving has much more freedom to it (minus the fuel costs) and less restriction as does public transit. I also know people who live in the city and they'd also disagree with your sentiment about cars being a burden. My uncle lives in N. Seattle, and he'd rather drive as opposed to take the bus. It depends on age. Generation Y as they call it (your typical Amazon or Microsoft worker in the 30s are the type of people that don't want to drive. Also, freedom with a car? You sure don't live in the city... a bike or your feet are the things that give you the most freedom there.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Jul 30, 2014 21:33:38 GMT -8
When it comes to going places, I would much rather drive my own vehicle, as opposed to public transit. Driving has much more freedom to it (minus the fuel costs) and less restriction as does public transit. I also know people who live in the city and they'd also disagree with your sentiment about cars being a burden. My uncle lives in N. Seattle, and he'd rather drive as opposed to take the bus. It depends on age. Generation Y as they call it (your typical Amazon or Microsoft worker in the 30s are the type of people that don't want to drive. Also, freedom with a car? You sure don't live in the city... a bike or your feet are the things that give you the most freedom there. I would have to disagree. For one, you can't go very far on a bike or your feet - at least very fast. You can't go to places like Mt. Rainier or the coast on a bike, living in Seattle, if you want to visit on the same day. Two, I don't live in a city for a reason. I lived in south Tacoma when I was in middle school and hated it. For one, I like my views of the Milky Way too much, and two, I hate the noise.
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