|
Post by SS San Mateo on Jun 15, 2007 6:55:09 GMT -8
Another article... Three shipyards would jointly build ferries Venture 'unprecedented' if state agreesBy LARRY LANGE P-I REPORTER Three normally competing Puget Sound-area shipyards proposed to collaborate in building four new ferryboats for the state -- the first notable development in the new-ferry plans in some time, Washington State Ferries announced Thursday. If the arrangement is accepted, the first new boat would be delivered by early 2010, more than a decade after the last new ferry went into service. Todd Pacific Shipyards Corp., J.M. Martinac Shipbuilding Corp. and Nichols Brothers Boat Builders Inc. have offered to jointly build the 144-car, 1,500-passenger boats for the state. Shipbuilders have joined forces on other contracts, but it would be "unprecedented" for the state if it agrees, said Marta Coursey, a spokeswoman for the ferry system. The state estimates the series of vessels would cost $347.6 million, but the proposal submitted late Wednesday did not include a price, which, along with design, would have to be worked out with the state. Ferry system Chief Executive Officer Mike Anderson said the system expects to decide within two weeks whether to accept the arrangement. If all four boats are built, one would be on the Anacortes-San Juan route, one would run between Seattle and Bremerton, and two would be on the Mukilteo-Clinton route, Anderson said. In turn, four older vessels -- two built in 1927 -- would be retired. Two other 1927-vintage boats would remain in the system to work the Port Townsend-Keystone route, but would be replaced in the future, Anderson said. The initial state concept is 362-foot-long vessels, 34 feet longer than Issaquah-class ferries, but with similar 16 1/2-foot drafts. The three-company arrangement was sanctioned this year by the state Legislature after the boat-bidding process became mired in litigation. The state ferry system in early 2005 selected Todd to build the new vessels in a negotiated-price arrangement. Martinac appealed and a state hearing officer ultimately reversed the decision, though a new contract was not immediately arranged. The Legislature and Gov. Christine Gregoire later approved a measure permitting the state to accept a joint offer. Todd competed against Martinac and another builder in the late 1990s to build the three Jumbo Mark II ferries -- the last new ones built by the state -- with Todd eventually winning that contract. The cost of the Mark II ferries exceeded Todd's original bid, and Todd and the state negotiated an additional $23.5 million payment to Todd. The new arrangement, if accepted, raises the question of getting the best price, since other potential bidders have been disqualified. But Anderson said the state won't have to accept any cost the builders request. "There are plenty of methods to verify and check that it's a good price," he said. P-I reporter Larry Lange can be reached at 206-448-8313 or larrylange@seattlepi.com. seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/319978_ferry15.html
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Jun 15, 2007 18:49:53 GMT -8
This is great news for all of us ferry riders and the three "former competitors". Todd Shipyards was a subcontractor for Nichols Brothers and built hull modules for the new Pierce County ferry STEILACOOM II. The modules were barged up to Holmes Harbor for welding within the new vessel at NB's Freeland site, where the vessel was formally launched. My thinking is that Martinac and Nichols will build modules and Todd does the rest and the launching. Hopefully, Todd, Martinac, and Nichols will provide webcams for visual construction coverage for us (Nichols has performed excellent webcam coverage in that yard's recent newbuildings, including monthly high resolution photos!). Let's hope the contracts are signed soon and the new ferries launched!
|
|
|
Post by hergfest on Jun 15, 2007 23:04:30 GMT -8
Sounds like the design might change.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2007 8:08:53 GMT -8
I am hoping the design changes. Those are horrible looking ferries. A cross between a Super, Jumbo Mark II and an Issaquah class. Not a good choice in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Jun 16, 2007 13:56:00 GMT -8
Really? I thought it was a pretty decent design, given that the fundamentals of it are more than 30 years old... to my untrained eye, it's far more attractive than, say, the Coastal Class.
|
|
|
Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 16, 2007 14:56:00 GMT -8
LOL, someone does not like foreign work I am assuming? Or just the horrific names? Still, that one gave me a laugh. You got to admit, gotta have something different and I will agree, but Martinec went way too far.
|
|
|
Post by hergfest on Jun 16, 2007 15:29:14 GMT -8
The smokestack is out of proportion, but otherwise I think they are nice looking boats.
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Jun 16, 2007 16:28:17 GMT -8
I agree, "hergfest". Nice design, with some real Nickum and Spaulding touches. There is quite a bit too much white buildup on the design, though. In the below touch up I did, I added green paint on all the upper structures as well as the officer quarters behind each wheelhouse. You won't notice these structures much when these vessels are viewed with the lush green forested shorelines in the background. These structures are camouflaged within the shoreline and the wheelhouses stand out better. I have also changed the ends of the Sun Deck. I do not like the ends they have shown on their website. It's better to have a promenade around the ends. On their latest config, there is an MES at the right corner at each end with a break in the car deck port holes. They have gone the distance in minimizing the breaks and we appreciate this. I have done more on this and added simulated port holes using black paint on the voids. This is far better than what BCF did to the OAK BAY, SURREY II, COQUITLAM, and COWICHAN. It looks like they did a little better on the ALBERNI. I did the original config from WSF's PDF file on these ferries and made changes. WSF'S CURRENT CONFIG MY CHANGES As you notice, I have added the original WSF "Evergreen Fleet" logo on the stack. A green triangle with a white "W" and a brown square at the bottom as the trunk.
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Jun 24, 2009 17:09:45 GMT -8
The webmeisters of WSF have finally updated the pages on the new 144 car ferries. WSF DRAWING By the looks of this latest rendition, WSF is going with a "BCF-look". The MES are on the Saloon Deck rather than the Main Deck. At least these will be better looking than the reworked BCF Spaulding jumbos in regards to the ports on the car decks. Some photos are added to the site along with updated information: www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Ferries/144CarFerries/
|
|
|
Post by umi_ryuzuki on Jun 26, 2009 13:07:39 GMT -8
What are "MES"? from the previous rendering, it looks like the MES did not change decks, so much as the number of them were doubled... Hence the two solid bulkheads to either end rather than one in the middle of the boat.
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Jun 26, 2009 14:39:53 GMT -8
What are "MES"? from the previous rendering, it looks like the MES did not change decks, so much as the number of them were doubled... Hence the two solid bulkheads to either end rather than one in the middle of the boat. "MES" are "Marine Evacuation Slides". A recent Todd ad in a maritime magazine showed the MES stations on the Main Deck. This was probably a rendition prior to the new one we see on the WSF site today. We'll await for the final rendition to be released.
|
|
|
Post by chokai on Jul 6, 2011 8:37:02 GMT -8
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Sept 2, 2011 17:23:53 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Sept 2, 2011 20:28:15 GMT -8
It looks like WSF is thinking about using LNG aboard the new 144-Car ferries. [edit for space] On this WSF illustration, we see LNG tanks on the Bridge Deck. A thought came to my mind: How would these tanks and the gas fare during very hot sunny days during summers and icy cold days during winters? I would hope that some sort of insulation would be present on the tanks. But given the boiling point of LNG is somewhere around -259 degrees Fahrenheit, I don't think that it's going to be a huge problem. I'm interested in what that mast in the center is all about, though. Nice 3-D rendering, too.
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Sept 2, 2011 21:03:34 GMT -8
It looks like WSF is thinking about using LNG aboard the new 144-Car ferries. [edit for space] On this WSF illustration, we see LNG tanks on the Bridge Deck. A thought came to my mind: How would these tanks and the gas fare during very hot sunny days during summers and icy cold days during winters? I would hope that some sort of insulation would be present on the tanks. But given the boiling point of LNG is somewhere around -259 degrees Fahrenheit, I don't think that it's going to be a huge problem. I'm interested in what that mast in the center is all about, though. Nice 3-D rendering, too. If these powering methods and fuel storage designs are selected, these ferries will be quite some conversation pieces here on our parts of the Salish Sea as well as those visiting this area from abroad. You might be able to get away with it when calling this a "Weiner Boat" with that hot dog sandwiched between the stacks. The term "Sausage Boat" is reserved for that local favorite race boat that won the Lake Washington event for the second straight year. OH, BOY!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by lmtengs on Sept 2, 2011 22:19:24 GMT -8
Re: Mast in the centre of the ship: Maybe some kind of lightning rod?
I like the design of this ship, and can see a few aspects that look like they were 'borrowed' from BCF designs. Even a few potential Spaulding-era throwbacks. It's not often a ship is built with bridge wings like that these days.
I think the design would look even better on a ferry with around ~25-30% more length.
|
|
Kam
Voyager
Posts: 926
|
Post by Kam on Sept 2, 2011 22:49:29 GMT -8
I'm interested in what that mast in the center is all about, though. Nice 3-D rendering, too. The mast is a LNG vent pipe.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Sept 3, 2011 2:42:48 GMT -8
Looks like someone futurized the hell out of the W.C. Nickum design for the Supers and grafted it onto the design for the Jumbo MkIIs... Not sure if I like it yet.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Sept 3, 2011 4:59:41 GMT -8
I like the design of this ship, and can see a few aspects that look like they were 'borrowed' from BCF designs. Even a few potential Spaulding-era throwbacks. It's not often a ship is built with bridge wings like that these days. I think the design would look even better on a ferry with around ~25-30% more length. I'm not sure I'm terribly keen on the idea of the fuel tank being up that high--LNG weighs quite a bit, and that big tank will definitely have stability consequences. As for 'borrowing' aspects of BCF designs, I suspect there are very few... the fundamental design is 35 years old (it was one of the variants that were on the table before we ended up with the Issaquah-class boats), and I do believe the original was performed by Spaulding, so it's natural you'd see a few "throwbacks." Kinda like the observation I vaguely recall on here that the Spokane and Walla Walla looked like modified C-Class boats...
|
|
|
Post by EGfleet on Sept 3, 2011 5:37:24 GMT -8
I honestly don't see this happening any time soon. First off, this technology hasn't been approved by a single government agency--as noted in the report: It should also be noted that both manufacturers have stated that they have not yet completed the process of getting EPA certification of their engines. All marine engines need to be certified by the EPA for emissions purposes. Since gas engines for marine use are still new to the US market, this process is still ongoing and a specific date for approval was not available. The EPA was not consulted for this report, but this issue will need to be resolved before either manufacturer can sell these engines in the US. While this issue is a formality, it presents a possible schedule risk to WSF.This process alone could take years--a decade even, given the slow rate that the EPA approves things. The Coast Guard hasn't signed off on it either, which is also a painfully slow process. Another reason why I don't think it'll happen to at least the first one--it already has engines purchased for it. I don't mean to sound like a nay-sayer, but having studied the ferry system for a long as I have there is a well-established pattern here. Studies like this happen every so often. A lot of talk is generated between the legislature and WSF--and then nothing happens. The study is done so everyone can say "we tried" but the legislature won't pony up the money when push comes to shove and there will be a lot of stuff appearing in the press about the wisdom in retrofitting a bunch of 40 year old ferries which work perfectly well with the engines they have. Still, it is an interesting idea, and certainly worth considering...but given that it takes, on average, a decade for this state to get approval and actually start construction of a new ferry, you'll forgive me for not holding my breath. The three-D rendering is pretty cool too, but boy, there is no denying that is very, VERY close to the original idea for the Issaquah Class.
|
|
|
Post by Kahloke on Sept 3, 2011 7:40:46 GMT -8
It's interesting that they've gone with double exhaust stacks on the design. I guess if you are going to put a big LNG tank in the middle, you would have to do it this way. I always thought they would do a single exhaust stack like the Jumbos and JMII's, and maybe they were going to do that until the LNG idea floated to the surface. I agree with EGFleet, though. It's doubtful we'll see the LNG thing happen anytime soon.
|
|
|
Post by lmtengs on Sept 3, 2011 10:43:46 GMT -8
I like the design of this ship, and can see a few aspects that look like they were 'borrowed' from BCF designs. Even a few potential Spaulding-era throwbacks. It's not often a ship is built with bridge wings like that these days. I think the design would look even better on a ferry with around ~25-30% more length. I'm not sure I'm terribly keen on the idea of the fuel tank being up that high--LNG weighs quite a bit, and that big tank will definitely have stability consequences. As for 'borrowing' aspects of BCF designs, I suspect there are very few... the fundamental design is 35 years old (it was one of the variants that were on the table before we ended up with the Issaquah-class boats), and I do believe the original was performed by Spaulding, so it's natural you'd see a few "throwbacks." Kinda like the observation I vaguely recall on here that the Spokane and Walla Walla looked like modified C-Class boats... The really big BCF-ish thing that I see is the design of the two solariums. They look quite similar to those of our Super-Duper-C's, except the fact that the bridge is above them instead of below. EDIT: And as a side-note, wouldn't the massive LNG tanks above the superstructure be a perfect target for terrorists? All they'd have to do is throw whatever explosive device they want up top there and wait for a boom, and a big one at that. Natural gas is quite combustible...
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Sept 3, 2011 11:04:37 GMT -8
The really big BCF-ish thing that I see is the design of the two solariums. They look quite similar to those of our Super-Duper-C's, except the fact that the bridge is above them instead of below. Oh, you mean like the Jumbo Mark IIs? Which were designed off our Jumbo-class, as were your C-Class... in short, those solaria appeared on a WSF boat long before the Super-Duper-Cs, Super-Cs, or C-class. It had occurred to me, yes.
|
|
Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
|
Post by Nick on Sept 3, 2011 12:32:59 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Sept 3, 2011 12:34:26 GMT -8
Buses carry LPG in tanks on the roof. I am not sure if any carry LNG. In fact I have seen photos of buses in China with bag like affairs on the roof to carry Natural Gas. Given it is China though, who knows what the safety record is. There are quite a few companies around the world exploring alternate fuels, including shipyards for ferries and shipping. Japan and Finland both have programs underway. I believe BCinNJ has quoted examples from his online news sources and I have quoted from magazines examples as well. It can't be so far off.
|
|