Bremerton-Seattle

[SS San Mateo]

Bremerton ferry riders fed up

seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004179446_ferry13m.html

By Susan Gilmore

Seattle Times staff reporter

The Seattle-to-Bremerton ferry route is underserved, with bad schedules and dirty boats — and the ferry system's response to damaged boats in recent weeks has only made the problems worse, some riders and advocates say.

"We are the redheaded stepchildren of the ferry system," said Ann Erickson, a Bremerton ferry rider and member of the city's ferry-advisory committee. "The ferry system has not been kind to us at all. Every little hiccup and burp, they punish Bremerton, and we're sick of it."

When the Coast Guard ordered repairs to several ferries last month, officials pulled the 124-car Kitsap from the Seattle-to-Bremerton route and sent it to Southworth to compensate, replacing it with an 87-car ferry to serve Bremerton.

Then last week, the ferry Yakima ran into a breakwater in Bremerton and was pulled out of service. Passenger ferries were added, but it left the town with just one car ferry to handle all the commuters that cross Puget Sound.

The route also was one of the last of the major ones in the region to get Wi-Fi, and some regular passengers complained Tuesday that the Bremerton ferries are generally dirtier than other boats and have fewer food and drink choices.

Others say the schedule unfairly punishes those who want to attend a late-night cultural event in Seattle or a baseball game. There's a ferry that leaves Seattle at 10:30 p.m., but the next one isn't until 12:50 a.m.

Jim Brophy, a Kitsap County resident, is a season-ticket holder to the Seattle Symphony. "As soon as the final downbeat, we have to run out the door," he said. "It's a footrace. It keeps us from staying for an encore."

The ferry service acknowledges problems on the route, but says it is constrained by old boats and limited funds to operate the nation's largest ferry system.

"People are upset," said Marta Coursey, ferry spokeswoman. "Whenever we have to move vessels, Bremerton riders feel it."

She said she knows those passengers believe they are second-class citizens "and there's a heightened sense of that lately. We understand people in Bremerton regularly feel shorted, but it's a system issue. People in many routes feel thwarted."

Others say the system simply needs more money or political clout to operate.

"This issue is the state has let the system deteriorate and [they] have a crisis on their hands, and anyone in Puget Sound dependent on the ferry system will suffer for a while," said Bremerton Mayor Cary Bozeman. "It's deplorable they've allowed this precious system to get to this point."

Bozeman said it's up to the governor and the legislator to make things right for ferry riders. "The ferry system is a black mark on the state," he said, adding that Bremerton needs three boats on the Seattle route, not the two it now has.

The ferry system said Tuesday it hoped to have the ferry Hyak, which had been in dry dock, on the Bremerton route today. Its return would return Bremerton to a two car-ferry schedule. The passenger ferries will continue to run this morning.

On Tuesday, dozens of passengers lined up at Colman Dock waiting to take a passenger ferry to Bremerton. Many said they were irritated at the inconvenience that seems to afflict Bremerton more than any other route.

"It's always us against Bainbridge," said Ric Logg, who lives in Bremerton and works for the U.S. Marines. "It's hard to swallow that pill."

"You can't get Red Hook or sushi on the Bremerton route," added rider Kirk Lowdon. "But it's understandable. If Washington State Ferries was paid for by passenger fares it would cost me $80 to bring my car over, so I'm not complaining."

Dianne Harlan, who lives in Port Orchard and has been riding the ferries since 1996, said Bremerton riders are treated like second-class citizens.

"Lawyers may live on Bainbridge, but their secretaries and nurses live in Bremerton," Harlan said.

She was a passenger on the Snohomish, which ran into the dock Monday night, and said she's now frightened to ride the ferries. Five people suffered minor injuries.

The Coast Guard is investigating the Snohomish and Yakima accidents.

Susan Gilmore: 206-464-2054 or [e-mail]

Copyright © 2008 The Seattle Times Company

[EGfleet]

Nothing new here.
They've been saying stuff like this since the Evergreen State went to Bainbridge in 1954. ;D

[In Washington]

I wasn't around in 1954 but that sentiment has been in place since the late 70's regarding the red headed stepchild/rented mule feeling about service.

The complaint about food service has even been around since the 80's. Demographics...

[shipchandler]

WOW! I thought we had problems up here [B.C.] Maybe not so much ,I hope you guys get some new ships P.D.Q.

[whidbeyislandguy]

shipchandler said:

WOW! I thought we had problems up here [B.C.] Maybe not so much ,I hope you guys get some new ships P.D.Q.

You do still have problems.. We do as well but, most of the problems we have honestly don't have to do with age as much as it has more to do with funding cuts. The people that work for WSF on the boats have done the best they could with what they have had to work with. The management of the Ferry Systems is another thing. About 10 years back I-695 happen and people believed Scum bag Eyman saying that the ferries and the roads don't need all these tax dollars. Now we are paying the price for I-695.

[northwesterner]

evergreenfleet said:

Nothing new here.
They've been saying stuff like this since the Evergreen State went to Bainbridge in 1954. ;D

Nothing new - but I'd be awfully upset if I was a Bremerton commuter faced with this level of service. They are bearing the brunt of the vessel crisis on that one route.

I have no compassion for complaints about dirty boats and poor food service. The boats are dirty because the riders don't throw their trash away. The food service sucks everywhere. But I do feel for the riders that are currently in a bind, faced with one rather small car ferry on the route.

[EGfleet]

northwesterner said:

evergreenfleet said:

Nothing new here.
They've been saying stuff like this since the Evergreen State went to Bainbridge in 1954. ;D

Nothing new - but I'd be awfully upset if I was a Bremerton commuter faced with this level of service. They are bearing the brunt of the vessel crisis on that one route.

I have no compassion for complaints about dirty boats and poor food service. The boats are dirty because the riders don't throw their trash away. The food service sucks everywhere. But I do feel for the riders that are currently in a bind, faced with one rather small car ferry on the route.

That was more of what my comment was pointed at...you're absolutely correct on the cleanliness/food service issues.

Bremerton does seem to be getting the fuzzy end of the pop sickle this week though...we just need more boats. Simple as that.

I seem to recall that they went for a few months without second boat when the Sealth clobbered Colman dock back in '98...but I could be mistaken on that.

[evergreenboatrider]

I wonder if some of the fed up riders were the same that told news reporters when I-695 was on the ballot that they did not believe that their ferry would take any cuts, and that the politicians were lying? Just wondering.

Now as far as the service on the route, they should find a way to speed up the boats a little more, if possible.

[Barnacle]

Speaking as a veteran of the San Juan run:

Wait a minute. You have FOOD SERVICE and WI-FI? We don't even have working #$%* water fountains.

From 1982 to 1997, the newest vessel in the fleet was the mighty SEALTH. On which run? Bremerton.

Who got the passenger-only service? Bremerton.

Who voted with the highest percentage to cut the Motor Vehicle Excise Tax that largely funded the ferry system? Bremerton.

[Political Incorrectness]

Third claim, questionable, any data to back it up?

[Barnacle]

It was in the papers in 1999. I'd have to do some research to track it down, but Kitsap County voted about 80% in favor of I-695.

[whidbeyislandguy]

Then i guess to bad for them now....

[evergreenboatrider]

San Juan County was one of the counties that voted it down. King was the largest that did.

www.secstate.wa.gov/elections/results_report.aspx?e=8&c=Initiative%20695&c2=&t=&t2=5&p=&p2=&y=

I have sometimes wished to take it out on those who pushed the Initiative, but always change my mind at the last minute before posting it. What I would like to do with the Steel Electrics, is moor them in Mukilteo until they are disposed of, but as we know, it is not all Eyman's fault on that one, there were other circumstances.

As for the breakwater where the boats were recently damaged, who wanted that marina there, and it expanded? Just curious.

[Political Incorrectness]

Some people believed that having around 60 engineers at the top of the system was not worth there tax dollars. But don't you have to have those engineers and naval architects for design of future vessels and all the know how of maintenance and design of new vessels?

In fact they call it "administration" I call it a good choice cause if you don't have engineers, then how are you going to know a thing about the boats?

[BreannaF]

ferrymaniac101 said:

Some people believed that having around 60 engineers at the top of the system was not worth there tax dollars. But don't you have to have those engineers and naval architects for design of future vessels and all the know how of maintenance and design of new vessels?

In fact they call it "administration" I call it a good choice cause if you don't have engineers, then how are you going to know a thing about the boats?

There are two sides in the argument about whether we are paying the proper amount in taxes:

1) We would like more government services, therefore we should be willing to pay more taxes to get them. And,

2) We are paying plenty in taxes, we just need to streamline the way we spend the tax money now by cutting unnecessary expenses.

While I am a believer that I would like to be taxed as much as necessary to be provided a wide variety of public services (like roads and ferries and police and so on), I would expect my public servants to spend that money wisely. But even as a person with an above average understanding of WSF, I have no idea off-hand whether 60 engineers is the proper number, or whether we could get by with 50, or whether having 70 would really make WSF safer and more efficient.

I suspect that an agency with growing needs and serving a growing number of people would require a larger number of people to service those needs efficiently. But I hear people argue back and forth all day about the need for less taxes (i.e. I-695) without really being able to say whether there is excessive spending or not.

Or, to say it another way, if I-695 was to send a message to our government that we wanted to see them operate with less funding, then this is among the first of our responses. We are now seeing the results of all the service we have chosen to pay for. This is what we get when no one in a "campaign" chooses to make a specific decision about which services to cut, rather basing a decision on merely that there must be somewhere to cut services, if only someone would pay attention.

[evergreenboatrider]

I know, from listening to him interviewed by local talk-radio hosts, Eyman would probably sidestep the issue if he was confronted. The way he would do it, is say that he did not cut the car tab tax. He uses the case ATU Local 587 et.al. vs. State of Washington as the reason. That struck down Initiative 695. He blames the Legislature for the damage, since they voted quickly after the decision to put the $30 car tabs back into law anyway.

Now sure there are cuts that can be made, according to the State Auditor. Although I wonder what maritime experience the firm he hired for the I-900 mandated Performance Audit had? Sure the late-night sailings to Bainbridge being cut would save money, but I have come back on the last Seattle-bound boat from Clearwater Casino a few times. Sometimes it happened to be as a concert, Mariner Game, or a Seahawk Game getting out, and that boat fills to capacity. If there were smaller boats available, the cost of changing the Jumbo out for one on the other occasions should be considered. That or make it equitable. Shut down I-5 during the hours those sailings that the auditor suggested were not needed.

[Barnacle]

Yes, do bear in mind that the State Auditors think that having spare parts sitting idle on the shelf in the warehouse constitutes a waste of money because they aren't doing anything.

Okay, perhaps not really, but the vague rumbling is that they did object to the excess number of spare parts in the warehouse without realizing that with all the semi-uniques systems we have, it's almost inevitable. And look at what happens without spare parts... we get the Hyak.

[evergreenboatrider]

Sorry to bring this land-side subject into this, but I remember reading an article in TRAINS Magazine a few years ago about Amtrak's sidelined equipment at their Indiana Shop(again, sorry for bringing it into this forum). One problem, no parts. Only this is not an auditors idea, but it was the parts makers. Something about Return on Net Assets was mentioned. Apparently, they make more money when the parts are not needed, not when they are not.

Now, another landside analogy(and it might be a bad one), is if Metro ran out of one of the most critical parts because an auditor that did not know about buses got the contract to do the performance audits(these are outside firms hired to do them), and felt buying more tires was a bad idea. Last time I checked, it would be a bad site to send one out without tires. Just like a few years ago Tacoma had a fireboat that was sidelined because of a bad engine, and no parts to fix it.(Say, did they ever fix it, it has been several years).

Also, who wanted the marina next to the ferry dock. Although I understand there is a Marina at Kingston, but isn't that one out of the way of the approach to the Ferry Dock? The one at Bremerton, seems to be in the way.

[ruddernut]

Why don't they just run the Bremerton route during peak commuter hours only, and sail the passenger ferry in its place the rest of the day? Direct the auto traffic to the Bainbridge and Southworth ferries during off-peak hours, and try to eliminate needless 60 minute car ferry crossings when 35 or 40 minute crossings will do.

[BreannaF]

May 6, 2008 9:44:12 GMT -8 @ruddernut said:

Why don't they just run the Bremerton route during peak commuter hours only, and sail the passenger ferry in its place the rest of the day? Direct the auto traffic to the Bainbridge and Southworth ferries during off-peak hours, and try to eliminate needless 60 minute car ferry crossings when 35 or 40 minute crossings will do.

OK, I'll admit that I only get to Seattle 10-12 times per year lately, but has demand for ferry service to Bremerton really decreased that much? Is my lovely MV Kaleetan really making runs at noon and in the evening that only have a couple of cars and a lot of passengers? I must have missed something!

The ferry system is there to provide cross-sound road access. Sure, I can drive around, but in this day and age where we want to be using our roads less, I would be hard pressed to suggest dropping service on one of the major cross-sound routes, unless there were some other pressing need for using that ferry during the noon hour.

Actually, the people who are going to be able to leave their cars at home the most are exactly the ones who are commuting to Downtown Seattle during the "peak hours" anyway. Besides, you do realize that the route takes an hour off in the early afternoon, right?

While I don't have the figures at the tip of my fingers at the moment, there is a thread in here somewhere that says that once the Bremerton pax ferries were slowed down, there was not a lot of time savings over the car ferry, anyway.

I'm not against looking around at places where money can be saved. But taking a few hours off of a major route in the middle of the day seems more problematic than the small cost savings involved.

[Kahloke]

May 6, 2008 9:44:12 GMT -8 @ruddernut said:

Why don't they just run the Bremerton route during peak commuter hours only, and sail the passenger ferry in its place the rest of the day? Direct the auto traffic to the Bainbridge and Southworth ferries during off-peak hours, and try to eliminate needless 60 minute car ferry crossings when 35 or 40 minute crossings will do.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think we have the infrastructure set up for such a shift, both in roads and ferries.

1. A passenger-only ferry is really only effective during peak commuter hours when you have more walk-on passengers. Passenger-only service during off-peak hours probably wouldn't get enough ridership to offset the cost of operating it.

2. While I agree that the Bainbridge ferry has enough capacity to absorb additional vehicles during some off-peak hours, I'm not sure Highway 305 has the capacity to absorb that much more traffic. It's only a 2-lane highway for most of its length, and it already has high volumes, even during non-commute hours. Plus, it's close to an hour's drive from Bremerton to the Bainbridge ferry terminal, so it's not exactly a close alternate.

3. Southworth, while closer to Bremerton than Bainbridge, really doesn't have the infrastructure to support a large increase of vehicle traffic on the ferries and on the highways leading to the ferry terminal. Once again, it's only 2-lane roads from the freeway (Hwy 16) out to the ferry terminal. Also, the holding lot at the Southworth terminal is pretty small. And if this isn't enough, West Seattle residents, particularly those at Fauntleroy, would have a conniption fit at the thought of have yet more traffic clogging their streets, because the Fauntleroy terminal is even more pinched than Southworth, and it's already a problem now.

WSF's long-range plan for the "Triangle Route" that is Fauntleroy-Vashon-Southworth is to split up the triangle and have direct car ferry service from Southworth into downtown Seattle. The ferry from Fauntleroy would only go to Vashon, and then there would be a dedicated Vashon-Southworth ferry to connect those two points. Such a plan is going to require a lot of capital to expand Colman Dock and Southworth, plus they need more ferries. If this ever happens (the key word being "IF") it's a long ways off.

Your suggestion is not a bad idea. I just don't think it's possible right now. Thanks for bringing it to the table, though. These types of discussions are always interesting

[Electric Thunderbird]

May 6, 2008 9:44:12 GMT -8 @ruddernut said:

Why don't they just run the Bremerton route during peak commuter hours only, and sail the passenger ferry in its place the rest of the day? Direct the auto traffic to the Bainbridge and Southworth ferries during off-peak hours, and try to eliminate needless 60 minute car ferry crossings when 35 or 40 minute crossings will do.

It would take a lot longer than 60 minutes for someone to drive to the other routes and back in to their destination. That would make Bremerton riders more madder. Not to mention the tourists.

[ruddernut]

May 6, 2008 11:47:24 GMT -8 Electric Thunderbird said:

May 6, 2008 9:44:12 GMT -8 @ruddernut said:

Why don't they just run the Bremerton route during peak commuter hours only, and sail the passenger ferry in its place the rest of the day? Direct the auto traffic to the Bainbridge and Southworth ferries during off-peak hours, and try to eliminate needless 60 minute car ferry crossings when 35 or 40 minute crossings will do.

It would take a lot longer than 60 minutes for someone to drive to the other routes and back in to their destination. That would make Bremerton riders more madder. Not to mention the tourists.

Bremerton gets tourists?

Anyways, it seems the most sensible solution is to widen the highways leading to the ferry terminals to four lanes, if traffic is so bad on them even during off-peak hours.

[Political Incorrectness]

May 6, 2008 9:44:12 GMT -8 @ruddernut said:

Why don't they just run the Bremerton route during peak commuter hours only, and sail the passenger ferry in its place the rest of the day? Direct the auto traffic to the Bainbridge and Southworth ferries during off-peak hours, and try to eliminate needless 60 minute car ferry crossings when 35 or 40 minute crossings will do.

We have tried to make better connections to our neighbours but they do not want any more traffic. Besides, that 30 million of your federal tax dollars will have been all for nothing even moreso. Second of all, my house does not have A/C so if you have some, I would like your house keys on my key chain so that I do not have to boil in the summer.

In short and simple terms, I do not like the idea one bit.

[ruddernut]

May 6, 2008 17:43:28 GMT -8 Political Incorrectness said:

May 6, 2008 9:44:12 GMT -8 @ruddernut said:

Why don't they just run the Bremerton route during peak commuter hours only, and sail the passenger ferry in its place the rest of the day? Direct the auto traffic to the Bainbridge and Southworth ferries during off-peak hours, and try to eliminate needless 60 minute car ferry crossings when 35 or 40 minute crossings will do.

We have tried to make better connections to our neighbours but they do not want any more traffic.

You just need a higher level of government to slam the heavy hand on the NIMBYs and roll over them.

It's environment and fuel conservation that matters nowadays, right?