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Post by EGfleet on May 10, 2008 5:37:34 GMT -8
I actually have mused in the past what a bridge from Bainbridge to East Bremerton would look like, and where it would go. If you did it at the narrowest part of the channel, that would put it north of Illahee, between Illahee and Brownsville on the Bremerton side. You could somehow connect up with Hwy 303, and at that junction, it's about the halfway point between East Bremerton and Silverdale. On the Bainbridge side, it wouldn't be that long of a connection to link up with High School Road, which is already kind of a main road on the island, and that would feed nicely into Hwy 305, right by the McDonald's, and Chevron gas stations there. The Bainbridge ferry terminal would have to at least double in size. They would have to build a transit deck to accommodate 30+ busses, and the holding lot would need to grow to accommodate at least 500 cars at a time. But, you could then run a 3-boat schedule because not all of the traffic would be funneling up Hwy 305 and creating a huge backup. You would have another way off the island. Ferry service to Bremerton would naturally be eliminated, although passenger-only service to downtown Bremerton during the commuter hours might still be sustainable. Such a scenario wouldn't affect my commute much. I'd still be taking a bus from Poulsbo via 305, as I do now. The ferries might be a little more crowded, but with 3 of them running, that would alleviate some of that. Ahh - to dream! Alas, none of this will ever happen. Between the NIMBY's on Bainbridge, the overwhelming environmental hurdles, the huge expense of building a bridge, and then the road/street network on both sides to accommodate the traffic, plus the massive overhauling of the Bainbridge terminal, there are just too many obstacles to make this even a likely possibility. It's still fun to speculate the "what-ifs", even if you know it's not going to happen. But, having said that, if they could do this, it would make for one less run for WSF to deal with, possibly a couple of fewer ferries, and one less facility. The original plan, way back in the early 1950's was to have a bridge built from Illahee to the Island, with a second ferry terminal at Port Blakely. Given that would place a bridge and four lane highway through Crystal Springs on Bainbridge, you can bet it is never going to happen.
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Post by ruddernut on May 10, 2008 6:37:46 GMT -8
The Navy won't allow a bridge there. If it gets sunk, there will be no access to the Naval Base. Would a bridge use enough material to bury the water passage too shallow for ships to pass through?
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Post by Kahloke on May 10, 2008 7:42:37 GMT -8
The Navy won't allow a bridge there. If it gets sunk, there will be no access to the Naval Base. That doesn't make much sense to me. It's not like Port Orchard (the channel between Bainbridge & Bremerton) is the only water access to the naval bases. Don't the ships going into Bremerton use Rich Passage? And I've seen naval vessels going under the Agate Pass Bridge. I'm assuming those ones are going to Keyport. Once again, their route wouldn't be blocked either if they use Agate Pass and go around the north end of Bainbridge.
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Post by ruddernut on May 11, 2008 12:42:03 GMT -8
I actually have mused in the past what a bridge from Bainbridge to East Bremerton would look like, and where it would go. If you did it at the narrowest part of the channel, that would put it north of Illahee, between Illahee and Brownsville on the Bremerton side. You could somehow connect up with Hwy 303, and at that junction, it's about the halfway point between East Bremerton and Silverdale. On the Bainbridge side, it wouldn't be that long of a connection to link up with High School Road, which is already kind of a main road on the island, and that would feed nicely into Hwy 305, right by the McDonald's, and Chevron gas stations there. The Bainbridge ferry terminal would have to at least double in size. They would have to build a transit deck to accommodate 30+ busses, and the holding lot would need to grow to accommodate at least 500 cars at a time. But, you could then run a 3-boat schedule because not all of the traffic would be funneling up Hwy 305 and creating a huge backup. You would have another way off the island. Ferry service to Bremerton would naturally be eliminated, although passenger-only service to downtown Bremerton during the commuter hours might still be sustainable. Such a scenario wouldn't affect my commute much. I'd still be taking a bus from Poulsbo via 305, as I do now. The ferries might be a little more crowded, but with 3 of them running, that would alleviate some of that. Ahh - to dream! Alas, none of this will ever happen. Between the NIMBY's on Bainbridge, the overwhelming environmental hurdles, the huge expense of building a bridge, and then the road/street network on both sides to accommodate the traffic, plus the massive overhauling of the Bainbridge terminal, there are just too many obstacles to make this even a likely possibility. It's still fun to speculate the "what-ifs", even if you know it's not going to happen. But, having said that, if they could do this, it would make for one less run for WSF to deal with, possibly a couple of fewer ferries, and one less facility. The original plan, way back in the early 1950's was to have a bridge built from Illahee to the Island, with a second ferry terminal at Port Blakely. Given that would place a bridge and four lane highway through Crystal Springs on Bainbridge, you can bet it is never going to happen. A few rich NIMBYs can be overcome, if the combined forces of Bremerton and Silverdale were to be weighed against them. Take inspiration from the Eagleridge Bluffs project in West Vancouver, in which a bunch of sit-in protesters were arrested resisting a construction project to build an unsightly highway over their posh neighbourhood.
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Post by Kahloke on May 11, 2008 13:42:27 GMT -8
A few rich NIMBYs can be overcome, if the combined forces of Bremerton and Silverdale were to be weighed against them. Even if a bridge at this location were proposed, I suspect there would be more opposition to it than just the NIMBY's on Bainbridge Island. The area in question on the west side of the channel, north of Illahee, is pretty developed even now, and I don't imagine the residents there, especially those with waterfront property, would be very receptive to turning their quiet neighbourhood into a busy thoroughfare.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,150
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Post by Neil on May 11, 2008 14:18:12 GMT -8
A general comment...
It's pretty easy to dismiss people as 'nimbys', when they have local concerns about some development that someone else has decided is necessary for the greater good.
Everyone, including ruddernut, myself, and anyone proposing any kind of a project, can be a 'nimby', if the wrong project is proposed for our neighborhood.
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Post by ruddernut on May 11, 2008 14:47:00 GMT -8
A general comment... It's pretty easy to dismiss people as 'nimbys', when they have local concerns about some development that someone else has decided is necessary for the greater good. Everyone, including ruddernut, myself, and anyone proposing any kind of a project, can be a 'nimby', if the wrong project is proposed for our neighborhood. Since I've been so vocally critical of NIMBY's, I've lost all right to be. But then again, NIMBY's are by their very nature hypocrites. It's not like they never use infrastructure that was built at somebody else's expense? And as I've mentioned in another thread, how much say does a ghetto dweller have in the matter if they ever decide to build a highway that cuts right in front of his home?
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D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 12, 2008 8:39:19 GMT -8
A general comment... It's pretty easy to dismiss people as 'nimbys', when they have local concerns about some development that someone else has decided is necessary for the greater good. Everyone, including ruddernut, myself, and anyone proposing any kind of a project, can be a 'nimby', if the wrong project is proposed for our neighborhood. Since I've been so vocally critical of NIMBY's, I've lost all right to be. But then again, NIMBY's are by their very nature hypocrites. It's not like they never use infrastructure that was built at somebody else's expense? And as I've mentioned in another thread, how much say does a ghetto dweller have in the matter if they ever decide to build a highway that cuts right in front of his home? Do you have any particular "ghetto dwellers" in mind? Do they have any specific ethnicity, or financial status? Are they just unfortunate enough to dwell in an inopportune location? Or do they just have to be accepting of the label "Ghetto Dweller"?
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Post by ruddernut on May 12, 2008 10:16:37 GMT -8
Since I've been so vocally critical of NIMBY's, I've lost all right to be. But then again, NIMBY's are by their very nature hypocrites. It's not like they never use infrastructure that was built at somebody else's expense? And as I've mentioned in another thread, how much say does a ghetto dweller have in the matter if they ever decide to build a highway that cuts right in front of his home? Do you have any particular "ghetto dwellers" in mind? Do they have any specific ethnicity, or financial status? Are they just unfortunate enough to dwell in an inopportune location? Or do they just have to be accepting of the label "Ghetto Dweller"? Just referring to somebody generally of low financial status, hence political clout. You know what I'm talking about without fussing about semantics like this.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 13, 2008 3:32:59 GMT -8
Do you have any particular "ghetto dwellers" in mind? Do they have any specific ethnicity, or financial status? Are they just unfortunate enough to dwell in an inopportune location? Or do they just have to be accepting of the label "Ghetto Dweller"? Just referring to somebody generally of low financial status, hence political clout. You know what I'm talking about without fussing about semantics like this. Semantics aside, I don't think the people you are referring to would see it this way. In fact, I think if you were to refer to someone as a "ghetto dweller" to their face, you would find yourself getting an earful, and you would have earned it. On top of that, I would argue financial status and political clout are not inexorably linked...it's is often apathy that is the culprit behind failure to act, and this is independent of financial status.
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guestfromthemidwest
Guest
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Post by guestfromthemidwest on May 15, 2008 11:22:09 GMT -8
I have been an avid reader of this forum since I moved away from Washington State a few years ago. Before said time I couldn’t imagine becoming engrossed in talking about boats, but no longer having the ability to pay a small fare and take a ride to calm down, see water, be on the boat, etc. as well as get from point A to B when I used them for more than leisure time has gotten me here. That aside, am I to understand that some people in the forum are ever-so-gloriously diluted in their own self pity and unfounded feelings of entitlement as well as cry baby antics to believe that a bridge should be forged in an area where no one in their right mind living there would want one, and it should be done despite what the locals, who are “ghetto dwellers” now decide, all so that the big toes of said cry babies can be kissed because they are tired of not having the prettiest, shiniest, and best of boats. Kiss off. If staying late to the opera, or a game, or anything else means so much to you guys than DRIVE FROM BAINBRIDGE. I cant imagine that even the infinite wisdom of the powers that be would cut runs if people rode them, making the point simply that you cry babies shouldn’t get a special ferry just because you want it, and furthermore be happy that you even get a ferry at all, you think you got the short end, your votes helped plague the system leaving the people in Port Townsend WITHOUT for quite some time, so why cant you just be happy with that which you have and stop with your @#$%^& complaining?
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Post by ruddernut on May 15, 2008 12:29:08 GMT -8
Just referring to somebody generally of low financial status, hence political clout. You know what I'm talking about without fussing about semantics like this. Semantics aside, I don't think the people you are referring to would see it this way. In fact, I think if you were to refer to someone as a "ghetto dweller" to their face, you would find yourself getting an earful, and you would have earned it. On top of that, I would argue financial status and political clout are not inexorably linked...it's is often apathy that is the culprit behind failure to act, and this is independent of financial status. I think it goes without saying that those of high financial status are more likely to have connections in high and influential places. What's more, they can afford good legal assistance.
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Post by ruddernut on May 15, 2008 12:45:47 GMT -8
I have been an avid reader of this forum since I moved away from Washington State a few years ago. Before said time I couldn’t imagine becoming engrossed in talking about boats, but no longer having the ability to pay a small fare and take a ride to calm down, see water, be on the boat, etc. as well as get from point A to B when I used them for more than leisure time has gotten me here. That aside, am I to understand that some people in the forum are ever-so-gloriously diluted in their own self pity and unfounded feelings of entitlement as well as cry baby antics to believe that a bridge should be forged in an area where no one in their right mind living there would want one, and it should be done despite what the locals, who are “ghetto dwellers” now decide, all so that the big toes of said cry babies can be kissed because they are tired of not having the prettiest, shiniest, and best of boats. Kiss off. If staying late to the opera, or a game, or anything else means so much to you guys than DRIVE FROM BAINBRIDGE. But driving a long roundabout route wastes fuel. What's more, what if a bigger community of people want the bridge built than those who are against it? Should a little democracy come into play? And no, they're anything but "ghetto dwellers". If they were, they would have gotten steamrolled over and pavement laid over them a long time ago.
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guestfromthemidwest
Guest
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Post by guestfromthemidwest on May 16, 2008 1:22:19 GMT -8
I have been an avid reader of this forum since I moved away from Washington State a few years ago. Before said time I couldn’t imagine becoming engrossed in talking about boats, but no longer having the ability to pay a small fare and take a ride to calm down, see water, be on the boat, etc. as well as get from point A to B when I used them for more than leisure time has gotten me here. That aside, am I to understand that some people in the forum are ever-so-gloriously diluted in their own self pity and unfounded feelings of entitlement as well as cry baby antics to believe that a bridge should be forged in an area where no one in their right mind living there would want one, and it should be done despite what the locals, who are “ghetto dwellers” now decide, all so that the big toes of said cry babies can be kissed because they are tired of not having the prettiest, shiniest, and best of boats. Kiss off. If staying late to the opera, or a game, or anything else means so much to you guys than DRIVE FROM BAINBRIDGE. But driving a long roundabout route wastes fuel. What's more, what if a bigger community of people want the bridge built than those who are against it? Should a little democracy come into play? And no, they're anything but "ghetto dwellers". If they were, they would have gotten steamrolled over and pavement laid over them a long time ago. Driving around wastes fuel; I grant you that. Then again, so would running a huge boat burning diesel for power just to move a few people, right? (That’s to say it were more runs Bremerton folk are after.) For a bridge, I see your side but still feel that it’s the people for whom the choice effects that should have the say in it, but alas it doesn’t always work that way. I have to say, if put to a vote, your bridge came to be, I’d say there was no reason to complain; the people would have spoken. However, I used to live out in Clallam County where the huddled masses dictates the rules, regulations, and what’s-to-happen for the rest of us, and most of them had no idea what we were about, wanted, needed, felt, etc. so I can see both sides, in the end though, I’d be up to the voters, or at least it should be. (and that’s saying there would be no “security issues” due to naval traffic and whatnot. But then again, what do I know? At lease we see eye to eye about “ghetto dwellers” and I hope I offended no-one. --a guy from the Midwest who appreciates this forum and respects those who use it.
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 23, 2010 23:20:15 GMT -8
Some of my photos from Bremerton: Mar, 2010 Bremerton waterfront - ferry terminal in back, conference center on right Bremerton Terminal from waterfront walkway Passenger only dock Holding lot from upper deck Bremerton Terminal - bus loading/unloading deck Walla Walla at Slip 1 Overhead walkway Waterfront park next to terminal with MV Kitsap at the dock The Fountains - pre eruption Eruption Stage 1 Eruption Stage 2 Eruption Stage 3 Post Eruption - runoff
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Post by Kahloke on Feb 26, 2011 12:56:57 GMT -8
A couple more pics of Bremerton Terminal, 25-Feb-2011: Transit Deck Overhead passenger walkway
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Post by zargoman on Jul 12, 2011 20:45:38 GMT -8
This is a photo that I thought was lost forever...Not so, as I found it on a CD today. It's from when the Yakima crashed into the then uncompleted marina in February 2007 and the Victoria Express, Victoria Express II and Snohomish were providing service to make-up for the loss of a second vessel on the route. PO Ferries by zargoman, on Flickr Snohomish by zargoman, on Flickr
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Post by Kahloke on Nov 10, 2011 18:50:47 GMT -8
Some Bremerton pics from this morning (10-Nov-2011): Vehicle holding lot and Terminal Building/Bus Deck above Downtown Bremerton from the corner of the ferry holding lot Walla Walla approaching Bremerton as seen from the vehicle holding area below the terminal building Harborside Fountain Park in full autumn colour Departing Bremerton
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Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Nov 11, 2011 9:03:11 GMT -8
I still want to do this route 1 day this is one WSF route that I have always wanted to do!
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Post by sounder on Dec 1, 2011 18:38:34 GMT -8
I was looking at the photos of slip#2 the back-up slip at Bremerton. The bridge and tower combination look exactly like the one that was used at Lofall before the Hood Canal bridge was built in 1961. The Lofall dock had the steel towers when first built, and then the wood towers between 1979-1982. Would these be those same bridge and towers recycled from Lofall? Or just that same style?
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 1, 2011 19:06:07 GMT -8
I was looking at the photos of slip#2 the back-up slip at Bremerton. The bridge and tower combination look exactly like the one that was used at Lofall before the Hood Canal bridge was built in 1961. The Lofall dock had the steel towers when first built, and then the wood towers between 1979-1982. Would these be those same bridge and towers recycled from Lofall? Or just that same style? I'm not familiar with either dock, so I wouldn't be able to point to any particular identifying marks and say 'ah ha!' However, I can attest that yes, WSF recycles their terminal equipment. The South Point and Lofall bridges from 1979-1982, for example, I have been told ended up in South Clinton (1986) and Orcas (1990). That same Lofall/SP bridge from South Clinton may have done its final tour of duty as the temporary slip in Friday Harbor--I don't recall if it came from North Clinton or South Clinton. (It was in pretty rickety shape by then--I was told that bridge was sold for scrap at that point.) Whichever one ended up at Orcas in 1990 (if that's true, of mind) is still there. At one point, I remember seeing a spare transfer span/bridge sitting on stands in Eagle Harbor as a spare; later on, it had been replaced by a steel "taco" that had once been the #1 slip in Kingston (until that day in 2001 when the cable broke). Sorry; I didn't have my camera with me that day--or didn't think of it. I haven't seen any of the old "arch" style bridges reappear anywhere; I assume they aren't capable of handling the load limits we expect. I would, however, bet the oldest transfer span currently in service is probably Port Townsend #2 slip. (I invite speculation. ;D )
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Post by Barnacle on Jan 20, 2012 5:13:50 GMT -8
I'd gamble it wasn't a structure failure. More a matter of snow and ice build-up making it too slippery to be safe.
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Post by Barnacle on Jan 20, 2012 12:32:12 GMT -8
Gamble with it all you want. I'm just extrapolating from why the Anacortes overhead walkway got shut down, and suspecting that the cause might be similar under similar conditions.
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Post by lmtengs on Jan 20, 2012 12:50:30 GMT -8
By definition, 'structural failure' means a collapse of some piece(s) of a structure, not just a breach of the electrical system. Here is, from Wikipedia, an image of what a major structural failure would look like...
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elwha
Oiler (New Member)
I'm always merry when I'm near a ferry!
Posts: 33
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Post by elwha on Jan 26, 2012 19:47:15 GMT -8
That's funny...
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