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Post by Steve Rosenow on Mar 10, 2013 23:34:43 GMT -8
If memory serves me correctly, that's also why the Bremerton side of the Colman ferry terminal was expanded in the early 1990s, with the most traffic holding lanes. I think they had the future in mind, considering the fact that Bremerton is still going through an economic revival - albeit a slow one. I'm actually not sure if they had very specific lanes for each route. I guess that like today, they'd have a basic area to where the first cars get sent, and they they fill it from there. But the main disadvantage of Bremerton is the day traffic. Ed-Ki and Sea-Bi are gateways to the Olympic Peninsula and beyond, but Bremerton is only there for more local traffic to/from the Kitsap peninsula. Reducing service to one boat during a typical weekday from ~9:30 to ~1:30 would not cause overloads at all, except maybe during the summer. Of course it would have a terrible impact on both sides of the sound but it would be the best option to save money. The original configuration for Colman Dock (prior to its expansion) was that all lanes underneath the building were for Bremerton-bound traffic, the lanes adjacent the building on the north side of the terminal were for Bainbridge. As for Bremerton route being there for local traffic, I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Bremerton is just as equally a gateway to the Olympic Peninsula as is Winslow or Kingston. Bremerton also has several large tourist draws that Winslow nor Kingston has (which is a potential I don't think has been advertised nor realized to its full potential yet; one of them being the Bremerton Boardwalk and the U.S.S. Turner Joy). It's also a half hour away from Hood Canal, which is the true Gateway to the Olympics. It is also the longest ferry run in Puget Sound in distance and duration (not counting the San Juans), which - if advertised right - could be used to a huge economic benefit to both the ferry system and to south Kitsap County. While it is true that the Bainbridge and Kingston route are the most popular, Bremerton isn't really that far behind, and at No. 3 on the list of most traveled runs in the system, there's a huge untapped potential for the possibility of economic benefit, shall a larger ferry be placed on the run in the future. |
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Mar 10, 2013 23:37:35 GMT -8
Any time the Kitsap or any Issaquah-class boat is placed on the run, there's always times where cars are left at the dock and that's no matter what time of year it is. Especially on the morning and evening commuter times. I can cite a few instances where the Chelan and Kitsap both - in off-peak, non-Summer ferry travel season, have been standing room only in the passenger lounges and have had zero room on the car deck. Part of the reason why traffic saw a downturn in the 1980s is because of the Reagan-led economic downturn. Traffic since the late 1990s, actually has been on an increase ever since Bremerton underwent a major economic facelift near the ferry dock - which is still continuing to this day as a matter of fact. Personally, I think that if a Jumbo MkII were placed on the run, it might be a success story. Change that "especially on commuter times" to "only on commuter times" and I'll agree with you. The supers are the best in the current fleet for the route but if the new Olys can go through rich passage without slowing down, I'll give them the right to rule over the run. Funny how we're all blaming the Kitsap for the standing room only and for the cramped atmosphere caused by the lack of outdoor space, yet the Chelan runs the highly tourist Sidney run (which will mean the people will go "up". I cannot imagine what the Chelan's pickleforks are like when she's running full on a sunny day. The Bremerton waterfront sure looks awesome now, the new Manette bridge is a nice addition. Next very delicate and costly step would be to buy the land that PSNS doesn't need, to scrap all that's there and to turn it into a nice park with streets like the rest of Downtown. And for the JMII on the run, I don't think it real anytime soon, as Bremerton has way less holding capacity than that and that Seattle would be cramped on Friday afternoons. However, if traffic (and above all car traffic) keeps to go up, I can see two Jumbos placed on the run summer and shoulder and a Jumbo and Olympic in F-W-S. That is given WSF builds JMIIIs for Winslow (AEQ: 250+, pass: 3000+). |
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Post by SolDuc on Mar 10, 2013 23:49:44 GMT -8
As for Bremerton route being there for local traffic, I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Bremerton is just as equally a gateway to the Olympic Peninsula as is Winslow or Kingston. Bremerton also has several large tourist draws that Winslow nor Kingston has (which is a potential I don't think has been advertised nor realized to its full potential yet; one of them being the Bremerton Boardwalk and the U.S.S. Turner Joy). It's also a half hour away from Hood Canal, which is the true Gateway to the Olympics. It is also the longest ferry run in Puget Sound in distance and duration (not counting the San Juans), which - if advertised right - could be used to a huge economic benefit to both the ferry system and to south Kitsap County. While it is true that the Bainbridge and Kingston route are the most popular, Bremerton isn't really that far behind, and at No. 3 on the list of most traveled runs in the system, there's a huge untapped potential for the possibility of economic benefit, shall a larger ferry be placed on the run in the future. Looking at it on a map, the distance between the Hood Canal bridge and Bremerton/Bainbridge is the same but the Bremerton crossing is 25 minutes longer. However, if it is summer and both the Kaleetan and Walla Walla are running (no Issaquah!! Yipee!), the route is a blessing to any tourist wanting to get to the Olympic peninsula, as the E-K and Sea-BI will be overloaded and Bremerton will not be. But when you'll see a Jumbo full of cars at Bremerton at anytime, please give me a call. The Jumbos are still a little too large, let alone JMIIs. The Bremerton waterfront and downtown is sure very nice, so is Rich Passage. But you don't need a car when you'll just be walking 10 blocks! That's why: 1. Most people go as walk ons, mix with the commuters on sunny days and make everyone angry if its an Issaquah 2. The supers are good at Bremerton, where the big cabin mixes with the mid-size car capacity |
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Mar 10, 2013 23:51:30 GMT -8
Any time the Kitsap or any Issaquah-class boat is placed on the run, there's always times where cars are left at the dock and that's no matter what time of year it is. Especially on the morning and evening commuter times. I can cite a few instances where the Chelan and Kitsap both - in off-peak, non-Summer ferry travel season, have been standing room only in the passenger lounges and have had zero room on the car deck. Part of the reason why traffic saw a downturn in the 1980s is because of the Reagan-led economic downturn. Traffic since the late 1990s, actually has been on an increase ever since Bremerton underwent a major economic facelift near the ferry dock - which is still continuing to this day as a matter of fact. Personally, I think that if a Jumbo MkII were placed on the run, it might be a success story. Change that "especially on commuter times" to "only on commuter times" and I'll agree with you. The supers are the best in the current fleet for the route but if the new Olys can go through rich passage without slowing down, I'll give them the right to rule over the run. Funny how we're all blaming the Kitsap for the standing room only and for the cramped atmosphere caused by the lack of outdoor space, yet the Chelan runs the highly tourist Sidney run (which will mean the people will go "up". I cannot imagine what the Chelan's pickleforks are like when she's running full on a sunny day. The Bremerton waterfront sure looks awesome now, the new Manette bridge is a nice addition. Next very delicate and costly step would be to buy the land that PSNS doesn't need, to scrap all that's there and to turn it into a nice park with streets like the rest of Downtown. And for the JMII on the run, I don't think it real anytime soon, as Bremerton has way less holding capacity than that and that Seattle would be cramped on Friday afternoons. However, if traffic (and above all car traffic) keeps to go up, I can see two Jumbos placed on the run summer and shoulder and a Jumbo and Olympic in F-W-S. That is given WSF builds JMIIIs for Winslow (AEQ: 250+, pass: 3000+). One thing to consider is that I'm just speaking from long term personal experience and observations over the last five or so years. Everyone at the docks I've talked with on both sides, and even tollbooth attendants and vessel deckhands, equally consider the placement of the Kitsap or Chelan on the Bremerton run to be a bad, bad idea all around. As far as the international sailing, I think the Chelan runs it when the Elwha cannot, although I'd have to check with Barnacle or Zack to be sure. That being said: (Evergreenfleet.com, M.V. Elwha page) Even the Chelan is woefully inadequate at times, and I'm almost sure that up in the islands the Chelan isn't so favorable a boat to be on during peak travel times. That being said... I think the idea of placing a JMII on the Bremerton run oughtta be tried once the fleet has enough backup vessels. Afterall, Bremerton has room to expand, at most perhaps three holding lanes get used currently as it is. As they say... "Build it, and they will come".  |
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Post by Kahloke on Mar 11, 2013 5:01:11 GMT -8
I agree with Solduc. I think a JMII at Bremerton would be overkill. I would like to see WSF boost capacity at Bremerton once Tokitae and Samish are entered into the fleet. At that point, there should be no reason to assign an Issaquah-class vessel to Bremerton as a regular boat. A Super and a Jumbo, or two Supers, would handle the traffic adequately. Put Tokitae at Mukilteo and kick Cathlamet or Kittitas down to F-V-S; put Samish at Anacortes, and that frees a Super that could be assigned to Bremerton.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Mar 11, 2013 5:37:20 GMT -8
I think personally we should start planning for the future instead of living in the "now"...
As I see it, auto ferry service out of Bremerton isn't going anywhere and at the moment ridership is increasing on that route, and it could be 10 years, or 10 years, before even a 144-car ferry may be obsolete.
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Post by chokai on Mar 11, 2013 12:31:48 GMT -8
The JMII's throw of a heckuva a wake, I'm sure the Rich Passage people would be pissed. Having spent a lot of time this summer sailing in the mid-sound my personal impression is that the Jumbo's wakes are about 2/3rds to 1/2 the size of a JMII's.
It's a fact that the Issaquah's are way to small in square footage not necessarily certified capacity for Bremerton. Where I work downtown the half dozen or so regular commuters on that run take the runs that allow them to intentionally avoid that and get any super or the Walla Walla during the summer. Salish was bad (people left behind) but one person felt she had more internal square footage per person than an Issaquah once you take into account the saddle lounges.
There are 4 larger runs in the system, Bremerton's actually 5th biggest.
Here are the recently published '12 numbers:
• Seattle-Bainbridge: 6,118,517 pas/1,940,639 car
• Mukilteo-Clinton: 3,834,967 pas/2,090,426 car
• Edmonds-Kingston: 3,807,935 pas/2,025,025 car
• Faunteroy-Vashon-Southworth: 2,886,466 pas/ 1,674,000 car
• Seattle-Bremerton: 2,329,322 pas/641,728 car
Bremerton's ridership numbers have held up well through the recession. Both MC and EK are down by about 10% but Bremerton is down by less than 5%.
If you simply needed to increase the ability to move cars across the sound... I'm wondering if the fuel per car moved might make it more cost effective to add a boat to Bainbridge Island or Edmonds/Kingston given the shorter distance. That's ignoring the fuel of those cars driving to the destination, terminal capabilities, congestion etc of course. I'd think you'd really need to study where people are going in some detail to pick the right route...
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Mar 11, 2013 19:33:05 GMT -8
I agree with Solduc. I think a JMII at Bremerton would be overkill. I would like to see WSF boost capacity at Bremerton once Tokitae and Samish are entered into the fleet. At that point, there should be no reason to assign an Issaquah-class vessel to Bremerton as a regular boat. A Super and a Jumbo, or two Supers, would handle the traffic adequately. Put Tokitae at Mukilteo and kick Cathlamet or Kittitas down to F-V-S; put Samish at Anacortes, and that frees a Super that could be assigned to Bremerton.
It makes sense to assignment two Supers during the shoulder season, and off season. But, for the on season I would say the Walla Walla plus the Kitsap or the Chelan. |
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Mar 11, 2013 19:34:16 GMT -8
I agree with Solduc. I think a JMII at Bremerton would be overkill. I would like to see WSF boost capacity at Bremerton once Tokitae and Samish are entered into the fleet. At that point, there should be no reason to assign an Issaquah-class vessel to Bremerton as a regular boat. A Super and a Jumbo, or two Supers, would handle the traffic adequately. Put Tokitae at Mukilteo and kick Cathlamet or Kittitas down to F-V-S; put Samish at Anacortes, and that frees a Super that could be assigned to Bremerton. It makes sense to assignment two Supers during the shoulder season, and off season. But, for the on season unlit the route calls for the Walla Walla with an 144 car vessel. I would say the Walla Walla plus the Kitsap or the Chelan.Two points: 1. You saying that we need a Jumbo and a 144. Yet in your plans your 144 is replaced by an Issaquah. You're confuzing me  2. Chelan's at Sidney during the summer |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Mar 11, 2013 19:40:48 GMT -8
It makes sense to assignment two Supers during the shoulder season, and off season. But, for the on season unlit the route calls for the Walla Walla with an 144 car vessel. I would say the Walla Walla plus the Kitsap or the Chelan.Two points: 1. You saying that we need a Jumbo and a 144. Yet in your plans your 144 is replaced by an Issaquah. You're confuzing me 2. Chelan's at Sidney during the summer 1)No, I am saying in the future. 2) Not this summer the Chelan is on the F-V-S route with the Issaquah. |
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Post by SolDuc on Mar 11, 2013 19:51:49 GMT -8
Two points: 1. You saying that we need a Jumbo and a 144. Yet in your plans your 144 is replaced by an Issaquah. You're confuzing me 2. Chelan's at Sidney during the summer 1)No, I am saying in the future. 2) Not this summer the Chelan is on the F-V-S route with the Issaquah.1. A Super and the Walla Walla is the right combination for the summer. What are they gonna do with the Kaleetan anyways? 2. You're viewing the spring schedule. And as Compdude would say, it's like a long term weather forecast. Here's what I expect to happen when the transition to the summer schedule is made, if the maintenance schedule stays the same. - The E-State is done with her maintenance at EH for the schedule transition, she goes up in the SJs for the II and passes the torch of maintenance to the Sealth. - The Sealth comes down to F-V-S and passes the torch to the Chelan - The Chelan goes up in the SJs to become the Sidney boat, the Elwha moves to domestic service only. Remember that when the summer schedule begins, a boat is added to the SJs. |
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Post by compdude787 on Mar 11, 2013 20:44:07 GMT -8
Part of the reason why traffic saw a downturn in the 1980s is because of the Reagan-led economic downturn. [my emphasis] Don't be hatin' on Reagan around me, or I'll be hatin' on you!  (Just kidding) For the record, Reagan should not be blamed for the economic downturn. Let's agree to disagree on this, but I just had to point that out. He's my favorite president, BTW. Now back to ferries... Re other ppl's posts: I'm kinda thinking that a JMII would be too much for SEA-BRE, and it'll be a long time before it's needed. Currently 2 Supers or 1 Jumbo and 1 Super serve the route just fine. But the Issaquahs are too darn small. Once WSF has got two+ Olympics, the 2nd Olympic could be put on that route. The first one would obviously go on Muk-Clinton route, which, every time I've ridden on it (during the summer) there's a big backup. |
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Post by compdude787 on Mar 11, 2013 20:50:36 GMT -8
I think personally we should start planning for the future instead of living in the "now"... As I see it, auto ferry service out of Bremerton isn't going anywhere and at the moment ridership is increasing on that route, and it could be 10 years, or 10 years, before even a 144-car ferry may be obsolete. In 20 years the Jumbos will need replacing. At that point they could build three Jumbo-class replacements so that they always have one Jumbo on the Seattle-Bremerton route. The second Jumbo replacement would of course go up to Ed-Ki, and the 3rd would serve as a backup for both the other two as well as the JMIIs. |
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Mar 11, 2013 20:56:07 GMT -8
Part of the reason why traffic saw a downturn in the 1980s is because of the Reagan-led economic downturn. [my emphasis] Don't be hatin' on Reagan around me, or I'll be hatin' on you! (Just kidding) For the record, Reagan should not be blamed for the economic downturn. Let's agree to disagree on this, but I just had to point that out. He's my favorite president, BTW. Now back to ferries... Re other ppl's posts: I'm kinda thinking that a JMII would be too much for SEA-BRE, and it'll be a long time before it's needed. Currently 2 Supers or 1 Jumbo and 1 Super serve the route just fine. But the Issaquahs are too darn small. Once WSF has got two+ Olympics, the 2nd Olympic could be put on that route. The first one would obviously go on Muk-Clinton route, which, every time I've ridden on it (during the summer) there's a big backup. I'm only citing the fact that the end of his presidency was marked by the worst recession since the Great Depression (until the Great Recession of 2008; 1988's economy was in freefall), and that his presidency was marred by two stock market collapses in 1987 that were due to the first waves of deregulating the big banks and Wall Street. History is showing Reagan to be about as bad as BushII and BushI now. Especially in terms of economic performance and spending. An issue and debate completely for another topic/thread, though. |
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Post by compdude787 on Mar 11, 2013 21:45:20 GMT -8
Don't be hatin' on Reagan around me, or I'll be hatin' on you! (Just kidding) For the record, Reagan should not be blamed for the economic downturn. Let's agree to disagree on this, but I just had to point that out. He's my favorite president, BTW. Now back to ferries... Re other ppl's posts: I'm kinda thinking that a JMII would be too much for SEA-BRE, and it'll be a long time before it's needed. Currently 2 Supers or 1 Jumbo and 1 Super serve the route just fine. But the Issaquahs are too darn small. Once WSF has got two+ Olympics, the 2nd Olympic could be put on that route. The first one would obviously go on Muk-Clinton route, which, every time I've ridden on it (during the summer) there's a big backup. I'm only citing the fact that the end of his presidency was marked by the worst recession since the Great Depression (until the Great Recession of 2008; 1988's economy was in freefall), and that his presidency was marred by two stock market collapses in 1987 that were due to the first waves of deregulating the big banks and Wall Street. History is showing Reagan to be about as bad as BushII and BushI now. Especially in terms of economic performance and spending. An issue and debate completely for another topic/thread, though. Yes, I don't agree with Reagan on everything, particularly regarding trickle-down economics (doesn't work), as well as too much deregulation of the financial sector. And let's not forget about the Iran-Contra affair. Even great presidents do bad things, because nobuddy's purfict. |
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Post by Kahloke on Mar 12, 2013 5:29:55 GMT -8
Moderator note: I moved a whole bunch of posts from the Puyallup Thread to this one since this seems to be a more logical place to discuss the Bremerton ferries.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Mar 12, 2013 18:17:39 GMT -8
The Supers are quite ideal for Bremerton, high passenger capacity for the commuter runs and adequate enough vehicle space. During the summer, it is definitely nicer having a Jumbo on the run due to having more open deck space but I think the Super design works best as you have the railings all around plus the interior lounge in the center.
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Post by compdude787 on Mar 12, 2013 20:41:36 GMT -8
The Supers are quite ideal for Bremerton, high passenger capacity for the commuter runs and adequate enough vehicle space. During the summer, it is definitely nicer having a Jumbo on the run due to having more open deck space but I think the Super design works best as you have the railings all around plus the interior lounge in the center. Yes, and plus the Supers have the best passenger cabin design in the fleet. The Walla Walla does look the most elegant, especially with those glass panels, so when both her and a Super are on the Seattle-Bremerton route, it's the best of both worlds. An hour-long ferry ride should NOT be spent cramped on the tiny Kitsap. The Kitsap would be much improved if it had a sun deck open to passengers. That's one of the Issaquah Class' flaws. |
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Post by SolDuc on Apr 15, 2013 15:13:42 GMT -8
Just a few commuters got the word that the Walla Walla was at Bremerton. This is the 4:20 out of Seattle. Had this been the Kitsap only about six lanes would've been used!  |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 15, 2013 15:15:58 GMT -8
Just a few commuters got the word that the Walla Walla was at Bremerton. This is the 4:20 out of Seattle. Had this been the Kitsap only about six lanes would've been used! I think it will get busy throw out the night. During the summer would this sailing be busy? |
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Post by SolDuc on Apr 15, 2013 15:32:00 GMT -8
Just a few commuters got the word that the Walla Walla was at Bremerton. This is the 4:20 out of Seattle. Had this been the Kitsap only about six lanes would've been used! I think it will get busy throw out the night. During the summer would this sailing be busy? The 4:20 out of Seattle sails full every weekday if the vessel is an Issaquah 130 or smaller. However in the summer with the Kaleetan up in the SJs and the Kitsap on that sailing in the summer plus adding that to the tourists that have no knowledge of which sailing to get on, it will get sold out really quickly (like at 3:45). I guess that the mix of tourists plus commuters plus the sold outs from the 4:20 will get the 5:35 out of Seattle full several times. I'll try to see what happens on a friday trip there in the summer. |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 15, 2013 17:39:54 GMT -8
I think it will get busy throw out the night. During the summer would this sailing be busy? The 4:20 out of Seattle sails full every weekday if the vessel is an Issaquah 130 or smaller. However in the summer with the Kaleetan up in the SJs and the Kitsap on that sailing in the summer plus adding that to the tourists that have no knowledge of which sailing to get on, it will get sold out really quickly (like at 3:45). I guess that the mix of tourists plus commuters plus the sold outs from the 4:20 will get the 5:35 out of Seattle full several times. I'll try to see what happens on a friday trip there in the summer. Thank you for information, SolDuc. |
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Post by Koastal Karl on Apr 15, 2013 17:47:55 GMT -8
Did you say the Kaleetan is going to be in the San Juans this summer??? That would be awesome!
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Apr 16, 2013 8:34:49 GMT -8
Looking at that photo of the holding lanes @ Seattle, it incenses me even more that WSF would think of even putting the Kitsap on the Bremerton run for the summer.
That has to be the most illogical, poorly thought-out, unwise decision I have witnessed out of WSF.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 19, 2013 16:46:06 GMT -8
Why is the Walla Walla always the first boat and the Super is always the second boat on the route? Why doesn't WSF switch the spots of the boats?
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(Just kidding) For the record, Reagan should not be blamed for the economic downturn. Let's agree to disagree on this, but I just had to point that out. He's my favorite president, BTW.
