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Post by Political Incorrectness on Aug 28, 2006 9:43:33 GMT -8
After looking back through history and getting the word to "try again" I might as well.
BC Ferries has been running since 1960, started by WAC due to strikes with Black Ball, CP, and other ferry companies of the time. I have looked back and then looking to what the system is now and have come to the conclusion that something is wrong. When the company became semi-privatized back in 03', the good of it began to show, customer selection and service improved. Ships on the major routes were going to be refitted for extra service life, and would not have to worry partialy about the government position. However, over a few years, things have changed. New things (such as the Sonia) are kept under wraps, tradition was forced to make its final bow.
With the Sonia being kept under wraps and many other things, I do not see the point. The only reason I see to keep things under wraps is in the case of competition. At this point in time, there is none. WMG looked like it wanted to try and steal some of the profit from BCF by running the fastcats again and we still are waiting to see what happens with that. What would explain the under wraps part is in the fear that competition might rise out of the water.
Tradition, such as unqueness between ships has vanished, it went from many differences to only some minor blemeshes. Uniqueness is important to please the general public's eye to something different each time you take a trip instead of the same stuff. With WSF, the interior colour is different if compared to each vessel, however, BCF does not care much about minor differences. It is about saving money and how do they do that? Trying to keep a certain class of one type so that you do not need specific parts for each and every vessel. Like in the airline industry, in order to keep maintenance down, you keep aircraft of one type. If you look at Southwest Airlines, all they have are 737's this is in order to keep maintenance price down because you have one part for all of one class. With ferries, you cannot necesarilly do that. Each route induvidually has its demands. It maybe possible to get one class for the minor routes that area vital to islands, however, that takes away the tradition of uniqueness between vessels.
I will give more information later my mind has lost some focus, however, if you would like to post your comments and opinions and add more information to this discussion, feel free to do so.
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Post by poeticlives on Aug 28, 2006 16:53:24 GMT -8
You have a point with generalisation of parts and design.
Privatisation brings in certain advantages and disadvantages. Yes we seem to have better service, but if we were not to like it, there isn't much we could do about it because as Tsawassenterminal told me yesterday when I met him, BC Ferries is now unbound by certain privacy clauses applied to it as a public corporation.
When I contemplate it more, it seems most likely to me that David Hahn and Co. are delaying announcing the Sonia purchase in case a better deal may come by- a ship that may be cheaper to modify or a ship with a lower price.
However I doubt that is practical if it's the case, because rumours are most certainly rife and I don't think anyone would give them a lower quote now- they'd have done so already. Secondly, why waste a deal nearly done if it's as I say, nearly done.
Apparently, according to Monsieur Strong Skier, they are days away from the announcement anyway. Let's hope so.
I stick with my mantra: Buy the boat (the permanent one) and get on with business!
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Post by hergfest on Aug 28, 2006 17:27:51 GMT -8
In a related note, Alaska Airlines is also going to an all 737 fleet. It does work to reduce costs.
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Post by Balfour on Aug 28, 2006 17:48:43 GMT -8
For the most part I'm quite satisfied with BCF has done since they went Semi-Private in 2003. The Ships are better maintained, the boats are on schedule for the most part, and we've seen more initiative to get things done compared to what we saw in the 1990s.
However, It is a shame to see such great traditions go away, such as the "Queen of..." naming scheme, and the individuality of the ships. as much as I like the new interior look, I kind of miss pulling into a ferry terminal wondering what ship we'd be on. Would it be the fancy Queen of Cowichan, or the Queen of Oak Bay with the ugly Green and Orange interior.
I'll miss all those great things of the old-BCF, but I remain cautiosly optimistic to what the future brings.
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Post by Queen of Nanaimo Teen on Aug 28, 2006 18:40:17 GMT -8
Ya Know, I totally agree with Jordan. It is a tragic thing to lose the whole "Queen" thing, but it's not the end of the world! And I am pretty satisfied to actually. However I think BC Ferries has been a little to vain with advertising there new logo. And it's not like they can make us totally forget about the Dogwood days because the old ships still have the dogwood carpet!!!! I also remain optismistic on what is going to happen in the future for bc ferries!
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Aug 28, 2006 18:57:41 GMT -8
You do realize that if the semi-privatized BCF falls back into hands with the government, things will be turning around and if you have the wrong government at the time when it falls into allignment, things will go back to when good old klutz was around. Maintenance improved I somewhat agree and disagree. Jordan, in what aspects has maintenance improved? Could you provide some detail as to what places maintenance improved?
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Post by Engineer on Aug 28, 2006 19:11:59 GMT -8
The Ships are better maintained, Oh what a thing to say ............
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WettCoast
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 28, 2006 19:36:46 GMT -8
The new improved BCFS...
- insist on referring to the loss of the one-time flagship as 'an incident', or worse, an 'act of God' - Go out of their way to avoid spending money on ships built at home - replaced the dogwood with mating slugs - Always looking to opportunities to cut service and thereby improve the bottom line - Bringing back the class system to BC Coastal shipping, where if you are willing to pay extra you can get into a special lounge, or jump the queue at the terminals, etc. - Choosing really nauseating names for ships - etc.
As for improved maintenance all I can say is show me the evidence.
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Post by Balfour on Aug 28, 2006 19:43:03 GMT -8
The Ships are better maintained, Oh what a thing to say ............ Only from a customer's perspective. I should have said seemed to be maintained. I've seen improvement on how the ships look at least, and I'm glad to see BCF investing money in the long term preventitive maintenance (ie: major mid-life refits). It shows they care! The small stuff like the minor mechanical difficulties that show the ferry being 10 minutes late are usually things that just happen, and are usually fixed on the go, and they are generally frequent occurances spread throughout the fleet. I'm sure the small things happen to brand new stuff as well. Just keep in mind that I'm the customer that knows nothing about what happens in the engine room.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Aug 28, 2006 19:45:41 GMT -8
From the general public I will give you, however, in all other aspects, I highly doubt. I am not sure but I believe that a majority of you can say where the problem is. I do know that when some brake downs occured, it took longer to get ships back into service. Isn't with after mid life refit they do not do any upkeep? Isn't it with refits just an application of make-up and rather cheap make-up?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 28, 2006 20:05:29 GMT -8
Engineer: world's shortest posts. More words required.
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Ferryman
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Post by Ferryman on Aug 28, 2006 20:18:56 GMT -8
I've already discussed most of what has already been said here, on another thread. But I'll make a brief point.
Just recently on the Circlepac trip, I noticed a new interesting thing. There are Visitor info kiosks on certain ships, that give out maps, and directions, and so forth. I thought that was good, as it makes things a bit easier for tourists.
The Ship upgrades are quite debatable, and holds alot of plus's and minus's.
The Reservation system needs to be adjusted. There shouldn't be express lines, that hold the regular paying customers up, just because they never paid an extra $17.50, or $15, depending on when they reserved. But then again, the Reservation system was started when the Government was under full control of the Ferries, during the 1990s.
Having first class lounges (Seawest Lounge), has a few plus's and minus's. I think it's a good idea, just as long as they don't start to make everyone pay extra, just to come up to the passenger decks, or pay to go out on the outer decks, on Routes that are supposed to be considered a highway link, meaning all of the routes obviously.
The contracting out of routes is quite debatable. I don't mind the route being cut from the system, as long as there is an absolute guarentee, that someone else can run the route and Ferry(ies), better than BCF, and will actually keep the route running, without going into bankruptcy.
Anyways, that's my 2 cents. I try not to think about that sort of stuff. I like to enjoy everything the way it is, and I'll still look forward to any sort of changes.
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Doug
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Post by Doug on Aug 28, 2006 20:54:26 GMT -8
For one, who cares if the Sonia was kept private? Idiots who "don't like the looks of it" start to protest about that sort of thing, and we end up having a big argument. I personally think it was a good idea to keep it private.
For two, no one cares what other ships look like besides the one that they are on. Many of us established passions for these ships when they were in their previous "Expo" state. Others may develop that same passion in the present. Just because it's changed doesn't mean it's a bad thing...we just have to appreciate that change. If the major routes start to be more run like a business, that's alright with me. Vancouver Island is growing and service to it is expanding. Is there no room for ancillary profit onboard?
Plus, profits they make on the major routes can go toward the minor routes and revitalizing the fleet.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Aug 28, 2006 21:10:47 GMT -8
"For two, no one cares what other ships look like"
Who is no one? I do care what other ships look like, if you talk about the general public traveling that is another statemnet but no one is much broader. If they looked like an airliner inside, heck, I'd care and I would be saying something ain't right here. I suppose keeping it under wraps until the deal is sealed is a good idea, however, the questioning process begins much later. Is it possible that BCF is just trying to keep the media off their backs and at the same time excercising the right to keep details under wraps?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 28, 2006 21:39:14 GMT -8
Since this thread doesn't seem to have a definite focus, could I be permitted another go at what I see as people's strange spin on reservations?
People who use the reservation system most often probably tend to be BC Ferries' best customers. They use the ferries a lot- travelling to or from second homes or vacation properties, travelling on business, travelling with families; they know the system, and often need to travel at peak times. We're not talking about rich people from Shaughnessy here- we're talking about people who can't, or don't want to, be caught in terminals for ages. I've been travelling to Vancouver Island regularly for over thirty years, and the novelty wore off long ago. When going or coming, I want to do it as quickly as possible, and not fart around at Duke Point for nearly three hours. It really has little to do with 'jumping the queue'.
As for the cost, please don't try to tell me that after paying $85 for a car and family of four, not to mention 30-40 dollars or more if you decide to eat, that $17 is prohibitive for a reservation. We're not exactly barring the poor from public transit, here. The fee is a rip-off, but clearly, it's manageable for anyone who can afford to get on the ferry in the first place.
Wetcoastkid, I share your distaste for class barriers, but I just don't see that sort of thing here. All I see is a recognition of the needs of 'frequent fliers', and a similarity to the practises of transportation companies all over the world.
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Doug
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Post by Doug on Aug 28, 2006 21:55:25 GMT -8
Agreed, Hornbyguy.
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Post by poeticlives on Sept 8, 2006 21:42:35 GMT -8
Seconded.
Supply and Demand. There is a demand for reservations, and so it's offered, and offered at a high price.
Running the ferries is a business as much as a service. It's why we pay for it. If you can make ends meet easier, then you will.
Plus, I think a lot of people like the ferries as much as they do "jumping the queue"- and their work on the other side of the pond is surely worth it.
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Post by poeticlives on Sept 8, 2006 21:46:13 GMT -8
Engineer: world's shortest posts. More words required. That's Right, Hornbyguy! Set the example old man!
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Post by poeticlives on Sept 8, 2006 21:51:41 GMT -8
About the Sonia- I prefer to think that its looks will grow on me... perhaps the same couldn't be said, for, oh, Fluge on a bad hair day...
Anyway, we don't know anything about the Sonia, do we? We know facts, well, brilliant. But you can't know a ship's personality til you ride on her.
And besides, The QoN wouldn't be a flagship if it wasn't running the Inside Passage and instead was holed up at Dee's Dock.
I am of the optimist's view. Until I sit in her seats and breathe the air on her decks, and look ahead into the passage, and behind to her wake, I won't know anything.
Right then. Waxing-lyrical-with-poetic-platitudes phase over. Roger that.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 9, 2006 7:57:53 GMT -8
About the Sonia- I prefer to think that its looks will grow on me... perhaps the same couldn't be said, for, oh, Fluge on a bad hair day... . Nice hair shot.....zing! RE the Sonia, presuming that she becomes part of BCF, I suggest that at her christening-ceremony (or whatever the official ceremony is for when BCFerries is ready to unleash her on the northern customers), that the music that is played is: "Baby Got Back", by Sir Mixalot. There's a Sonia ferry joke there, I trust that those who listen to rap from the 1990's have found it. For the rest of you, you didn't miss anything important.
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Post by dualcitizen on Sept 9, 2006 10:02:33 GMT -8
"Going out of their way to avoid building ships at home?"
You obviously have strong opinions and for that I applaud you. But I would also encourage you to take a more unbiased look at what you're commenting on. It is statements like this that prove you haven't done your research. Don't you think BCF would rather keep the work in BC?
However, the reality is BC Shipyards have seen a noticeable decrease in their contracts, and the majority of their talented workers (i.e. naval architects, marine engineers) have gone to places like Germany, Spain, Poland, Peru and China in search of work. This means when a new large vessel is required, often there is not the infrastructure in place to build the vessel locally.
The fact of the matter is that BC Shipyards have gotten wealthy off of previous governments that have given them the work without opening it up to a global tendering process. I can understand the NDP government and their unwillingness to build ships abroad when BCF was a Crown Corp. It made perfect sense for them politically to keep the work with unionized workers in their own province. I mean if you break it down even farther, the NDP really is a party of the unionized, left-leaning middle-class. Building ships at home made complete sense.
But now that it is not a Crown Corporation, and we have a decidedly more right-wing "Liberal" government, that have privatized the service, building locally isn’t the only thing that needs to be taken into account.
People complain that BCF doesnt give local shipyards a chance to bid - that is false. They open the tendering process globally, and in that global market our local shipyards simply cannot compete. But that is a black eye for our local shipyards and ship-building industry, not the foreign ones.
I’ve done some research on the Flensburger Shipyard in Germany. (This is the shipyard now under contract to build the 3 Super C’s and the replacement vessel for the Queen of Prince Rupert).
This shipyard has been in operation since 1872. This is the same year that BC joined Canada. It is also the first year Canada celebrated Labour Day. But I digress. Flensburger in the past has been involved in the design and construction of over 700 vessels. Most famously or infamously perhaps, the Bismarck (for all of you history buffs out there). This shipyard also has the strong reputation needed to back its work. Since the end of WW2 (1945), this shipyard has not delivered one single vessel late. That in itself is a remarkable feat. Why do I mention all of this? To give you a different side of the story. Whether you like it or not, there are always at least two sides to every story, and all are worth looking at.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 9, 2006 11:34:46 GMT -8
I must be confused, because it almost seems that Cascade, of all people, is saying that Flensburger received something that could be said to have the same effect as a subsidy in it's construction of the super c's.....
I certainly wouldn't want to put the dreaded "s" word in his mouth if I've misconstrued him.
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Post by DENelson83 on Sept 9, 2006 15:25:44 GMT -8
This shipyard has been in operation since 1872. This is the same year that BC joined Canada. BZZZZZZZZ! Wrong! BC joined Canada in 187 1.
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WettCoast
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 9, 2006 21:59:51 GMT -8
I response to "Dualcitizen" 's piece above...
1 - I have no doubt that the German yard building the Super C's will do excellent work, on budget, and on schedule.
2 - The BC yards that built the Super V's [i.e. the Spirits] also did first rate work and the money spent building them stayed in the BC economy.
3 - During the history of BC Ferries from 1958 when the first two vessels were commissioned, up until 2001, when Mr Campbell came to power, the NDP held the reigns of power for a total of 13 years, or a little more than 25% of that period. Every single vessel built for BC Ferries, regardless of who the government was, was built in BC yards. All foreign built ships in the fleet were purchased as used vessels. Suggesting that building them in BC yards was an NDP perk for their union buddies is nonsense. Or maybe I missed something and WAC Bennett was an NDP'er.
3 - You say that BC Ferries is now privatized. With just one shareholder, that being the Province on BC they most certainly are still a government entity. Whats more is that they remain extremely dependent on government subsidies to stay in business.
Lastly, politicians in the home of free enterprise, the USA, still insist on building their ships at home. They know that spending their money at home is good for the American economy. Canadians, apparently, are not so wise.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Sept 17, 2006 15:39:57 GMT -8
It is time for me to add to this
Running BC Ferries is like running a bridge. Departures are being decreased as soon as labour day is over to save money, however, sailings are packed and sometimes, people may just barely make it aboard the last sailing. BC Ferries is cancelling the two evening sailings on Tsawwassen to Duke Point in October. The problem? Today, the 5:45 was filled at 2:45 p.m. That shows that there is demand on the weekends, maybe not on weekdays but on weekends, it gives customers another option to get to the mainland. This leads into the next thing.
Modeling a ferry system after an american ran airline company. Airlines cater to tourists and buisness people, they provide a faster way to travel from one place to another, however, you have to book a month in advance at least to get lowest fares. Airliners also don't give you what you pay for. BC Ferries has jacked fares up and I would like to add a quote "if they use supply and demand as an excuse to charge an arm and a leg, then they better provide a better supply"(Graham if you have this saved feel free to modify the quote) BC Ferries has taken que from airliners but it does not cater to the people airliners do. It is a transportation system connecting the highway of Vancouver Island to the Mainland. These reductions in sailings are exactly what airliners have been doing. To cut costs to keep the profit up, and with rising gas prices, they will look at demand for certain flights and cut them down to just meet demand.
Feel free to comment on this section of this addition to the discussion.
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