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Post by Barnacle on May 21, 2014 14:52:35 GMT -8
On another note, it really is a shame that the sundeck will be closed--at least initially--on the Tokitae. I'm sure WSF will open up the sundeck once they get enough crew members trained on this boat. Don't you think that would seem pretty logical? I don't think that the closing of the sundeck is a money-saving move so much as it is a way to reduce the amount of crew required until they've gotten enough people familiarized with this new vessel. I'm sure WSF would much rather have the sundeck closed than have to cancel yet another sailing on their busiest route (in terms of car traffic) due to lack of crew. I suspect the sun deck will be opened more as a result of public outcry than sufficient numbers of trained crew. WSF is, like every other state agency, in a budget crunch and holding onto the purse strings as tightly as they can--and, as a taxpayer, I can't blame them. That being said, I'm fairly certain that, even on a short crossing like Mukilteo-Clinton, the crews will have their hands full just trying to keep people off the sun deck. Especially since the elevators go up there.
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Post by chokai on May 21, 2014 15:26:04 GMT -8
Tokitae just scooted by my window again headed out for another round sea trials. She's now fishtailing around up off Magnolia. Rudder/steering system testing perhaps?
Regarding a bridge at Mukilteo/Clinton. I think it would be doable as a floating bridge, but it would be incredibly expensive relatively speaking. It would also require a 250 to 300ft draw span for carriers etc...
edit: Remembered something from long ago and pulled out a navigation chart to verify. You can add a whole lot of $$$ to that price tag, it's almost 600 ft deep center channel there.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on May 21, 2014 15:52:08 GMT -8
Meanwhile, as mentioned, Olympic #3 is said to be going to Bremerton, Mr. Rosenow. Have a little patience.. and once again, a gentle reminder that there are other runs in the system besides the one you take. 2) SUN DECK. I've misjudged this issue greatly, I admit. I assumed that because accessing the sun deck was no big deal to me, it wasn't to anyone else either. I now know that if there's a sun deck on a vessel, Steve Rosenow and Koastal Karl are going to be on it. I tease a little here, but if there's two people in our tiny circle that are vocal about it, there will likely be others elsewhere. Leaving one sun deck "unfinished" would be penny-wise and pound-foolish; because it assumes that the vessel will never leave its initially planned run, ever ever ever. I'm against the idea of run-specific vessels. That being said, I'm not happy about the closure of the sun deck level on any run. Even in the San Juans in winter, though only a few people would be up there that time of year anyway. As a footnote, when the upper deck is closed to avoid having two extra crew members, usually that brings a passenger-count restriction. I have no idea if this is the case on the Olympic class, nor what it would be if there is. 3) THREE-BOAT SERVICE. Only briefly mentioned recently. There was, once upon a time, three-boat service on the South Whidbey run. However, they were smaller and slower vessels (usually the Kulshan, a Steel-Electric, and the Rhody, Olympic, or--when desperate--the Vashon). Even adding a third, smaller vessel wouldn't work on the Mukilteo side, because anything in our fleet that counts as "smaller" than an Issaquah--and check the fleet, guide, there aren't many anymore--is also slower and would inevitably fall behind. I've would like to think that I've been patient. Bremerton has been getting screwed quite long enough! Why should Bremerton be the absolute last to get a new boat when it's the longest, most tourism-driven run in the South Sound? It's foolish, especially when the Kitsap is beyond horrible for tourism capacity! Quite frankly, I cannot understand why there's such a desire to keep the status quo. One of the biggest complaints I've heard in my interviews of people on the Bremerton run over the last five years, is the horrible lack of outdoor deck space on the #1 boat. The second biggest complaint? No room to enjoy the scenery due to #1! Washington State Ferries has touted themselves for years as being the #1 tourist attraction in the state behind the Space Needle. Is that really a way to promote themselves on a popular tourism route - by putting a vessel on a run which is totally inaequate for it? As for the sun deck? Try the Bremerton run even in winter. Depending on the day, they can be virtually packed. Hell, in 2011 I took a February crossing in biting cold weather with a windchill into the single digits on the Kaleetan and the sun deck and both shelters were full!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 16:28:35 GMT -8
I realize it's the ferry fan's prerogative to sound off on where vessels should be placed, and it certainly makes for discussion on a forum. But really... do people actually think they have more insight than the operators? I suspect that if critics were to personally challenge George Capacci and Mike Corrigan as to where and why WSF and BCFC place their boats, they would be given very good reasons for why they are where they are. Sometimes, there are financial, logistical, and operational reasons that are beyond the grasp of laymen with limited information. It's not always as obvious as it seems to critics. Your sentiment will change and you'll be suredly singing a different tune once you've been subject to a ride on the Kitsap (or Chelan) on a heavy crossing out of Seattle or Bremerton. The last time I took a crossing on the Kitsap, there was not a place to sit in the cabin and people were forced to sit on cold hard steel out on the picklefork decks during an early evening crossing. One in which it rained about halfway. Try being a frequent commuter (my sister, who takes my brother-in-law over to Seattle frequently for chemo, often on the Kitsap) and to hear and see it all the time - standing room only crossings and cars out to the damned safety nets. Try experiencing it for once instead of sitting back armchair quarterbacking it. Before jumping to the conclusion that we know nothing, remember that we are ferry users as well. I can bet that you've never experienced a full Queen of Coquitlam sailing - that can get interesting when there's a heavy load of foot pax. Sailings can become standing room only if there is a lot of luggage, and the crossing is quite a bit longer. In addition, our fares are a bit higher so one would expect a higher level of service. The last time I took a full sailing aboard the Coquitlam, I was not able to get a proper meal as the line was so long, and we were in dock by the time it was my turn. Try being a route 3 commuter where the schedule constantly changes (six times a year), and the vessel can't even keep the schedule. And it costs almost twice as much as the Seattle-Bremerton commute. I think you'd reconsider your position on calling us "armchair quarterbacks."
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Post by Kahloke on May 21, 2014 17:14:04 GMT -8
Before jumping to the conclusion that we know nothing, remember that we are ferry users as well. I can bet that you've never experienced a full Queen of Coquitlam sailing - that can get interesting when there's a heavy load of foot pax. Sailings can become standing room only if there is a lot of luggage, and the crossing is quite a bit longer. In addition, our fares are a bit higher so one would expect a higher level of service. The last time I took a full sailing aboard the Coquitlam, I was not able to get a proper meal as the line was so long, and we were in dock by the time it was my turn. Try being a route 3 commuter where the schedule constantly changes (six times a year), and the vessel can't even keep the schedule. And it costs almost twice as much as the Seattle-Bremerton commute. I think you'd reconsider your position on calling us "armchair quarterbacks." The one observation I have made on some very full BC Ferries sailings is how cramped the passenger cabins become. Some of it may be due to narrower walkways, or perhaps just the perception of narrower walkways because of the way the passenger decks are layed out; which is to say they are more broken up and "compartmentalized" than spaces on WSF vessels, largely I think due to the increased amenities available on the mainline vessels. I'm visualizing Queen of New Westminster when I speak of these things, although it would likely apply to other vessels as well. I have experienced a very full QNW on Route 1 before, and based on my observations, QNW seems a lot more cramped when it's full than one of WSF's Jumbo Mark II vessels when they are full. Like I said, I think it's because the aisles are a little wider on the JMII's, and the passenger cabin spaces aren't as compartmentalized.
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Koastal Karl
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Post by Koastal Karl on May 21, 2014 17:55:18 GMT -8
they have too many amenities and not enough seats for example the large passages gift shop on the New West is that really needed?? How about smaller and more seats! I was on the New West Sunday and it was packed! The lineup for the 6pm at Swartz Bay when I got off was back up to the foot passenger booths now I wouldent want to be on that New West sailing! I like the New West but not on route 1 unless it's a quiet sailing! I remember being on the Elwha from Sidney a few times and amazed how roomy those boats are.
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Post by chokai on May 21, 2014 17:59:28 GMT -8
I suspect the sun deck will be opened more as a result of public outcry than sufficient numbers of trained crew. WSF is, like every other state agency, in a budget crunch and holding onto the purse strings as tightly as they can--and, as a taxpayer, I can't blame them. That being said, I'm fairly certain that, even on a short crossing like Mukilteo-Clinton, the crews will have their hands full just trying to keep people off the sun deck. Especially since the elevators go up there. Modern elevator control software will let you turn that off at the flip of a switch, button won't work. But that is the first thing I'm testing when the boat goes in service, who bets they lock the doors but forget to do that? ;-) I've gotten into interesting places in high rises on more than one occasion by finding the freight elevator which often times isn't key-carded. I'm assuming to lock or key-card the doors won't be much of a problem, I've noticed the ferries seem to almost now all have proximity card access systems. Regardless the main cabin on the Tokitae should be quite a bit more spacious than an Issaquah. Something on the order of 3,000 or so more square feet (40 ft longer and at least 80 ft wide). Plus the room gained from the extra 5 or so feet the length of the vessel. That's more than half a basketball court. If they open it I agree it'd be due to outcry, heck even some of the other runs might not need that deck opened all the time especially during the winter.
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on May 21, 2014 18:49:30 GMT -8
they have too many amenities and not enough seats for example the large passages gift shop on the New West is that really needed?? How about smaller and more seats! I was on the New West Sunday and it was packed! The lineup for the 6pm at Swartz Bay when I got off was back up to the foot passenger booths now I wouldent want to be on that New West sailing! I like the New West but not on route 1 unless it's a quiet sailing! I remember being on the Elwha from Sidney a few times and amazed how roomy those boats are. Well, our boats aren't cruise ships with casino machines on them! On another note, I wonder how AMHS deals with large crowds. Most of the upper decks on the ships are used for cabins, and (especially thinking Kennicott) the forward and aft lounges are large, but nowhere near what you can find on any WSF (well, maybe except for the Hiyu).
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Post by compdude787 on May 21, 2014 20:56:04 GMT -8
On another note, it really is a shame that the sundeck will be closed--at least initially--on the Tokitae. I'm sure WSF will open up the sundeck once they get enough crew members trained on this boat. Don't you think that would seem pretty logical? I don't think that the closing of the sundeck is a money-saving move so much as it is a way to reduce the amount of crew required until they've gotten enough people familiarized with this new vessel. I'm sure WSF would much rather have the sundeck closed than have to cancel yet another sailing on their busiest route (in terms of car traffic) due to lack of crew. I suspect the sun deck will be opened more as a result of public outcry than sufficient numbers of trained crew. Yeah, I bet that will be the case; they'll probably be swamped with complaints about not having the sun deck open. Personally, when I'm on the ferry and it's a nice day, oh heck yeah, I'd go up on the sun deck. In fact, I have never not gone upstairs on the ferry. I'm not one of those weird people who just sits in their car for the whole crossing. That's boring! Either way, I hope the whole "close the sundeck on the Mukilteo-Clinton route" thing won't become an ordinary occurrence like what BCF does with Deck 5 on the Coastals when they're on Route 30. Steve, I feel your pain. I've ridden on the Kaleetan on the Bremerton run round-trip on a Friday evening and both ways, it seemed like there was a good amount of people on the ferry. At least they had plenty of space to spread out! After your descriptions of how crowded it is on an Issaquah-class ferry, I don't want to have to put up with an insanely packed ferry.
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lifc
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Post by lifc on May 22, 2014 12:05:27 GMT -8
It's interesting to see the boards responses to the "New" boat. While I know that these ought to have been built a while ago, I see that three of these isn't going to be the ultimate solution for the system. Firstly, I think we need at least two spare Vessels. Before 2007, we had three spares, the E State, Nisqually, and the ever present HIYU. When the Nisqually was put back into use, that left two, yes the E State was in mothballs, but at least it was there. The Tokatae is the replacement of the E State, the Samish, the replacement for the HIYU and Rhododendron, and the third Olympic Class, I will call it the Britanic (the third vessel of another more famous Olympic Class), the replacement of another one of the E State Class. While we are up-sizing the capacity, which is and will be needed in the future. May the Olympic class perform well in their niche, however, we are still looking at an overage fleet as explained in detail in the Passenger Vessel Assoc. report. Soon the third E State'r will have to go as it hits 60, yes that not far away, then behind that will be the Supers. The Olymics may be perfect replacements for the Supers, or bump up the Issaquah's to do that. At least we have some time to figure this out, unlike the badly planned and executed Steel Electric replacements. This will leave the Issy's as the lower mid-size boat. For some runs they are a bit large, I would like to see one or two options going forth. 1. Build one or two shallower draft 80-90 car boats, to replace two of the E States, for mid smaller runs. These also can be used on Port Townsend/Keystone at high season as the car traffic is exceeding the capacity of the two KDT's. From my contacts inside the WSF, there is some talk of eventually having to add a third vessel at that time, the bigger boat would be a double performer and spare. 2. Rebuild the KdT's. Change the engines to more efficient 4 strokes, remove the saddle lounges, install single car ramps instead, change the bow layout to better allow the San Juan spin. I am looking forward to my first ride on the Tokatae, wherever she may go. Meanwhile, this is a very interesting read. www.passengervessel.com/downloads/member-resources/wsf-expert-panel-report.pdf
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Post by hergfest on May 22, 2014 20:36:02 GMT -8
Haven't the KdTs been running better since the ballast was put on them? Better fuel economy/better speed. Seems to solve your constant "change the engines!" arguement. Granted I have no proof other than what has been mentioned on this forum. And WSF is not building run specific boats anymore. Doesn't make any economic sense. Time will tell if WSF built the Olympics too small but they have a Jumbo MkII design that has been proven reliable if they need bigger boats. I don't think you will see any other new boats until the Supers need to be retired however.
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lifc
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Post by lifc on May 23, 2014 1:48:53 GMT -8
While the fuel economy did improve some with the re-ballasting, it is still not as good as it would be with proper engines, which is likely about 1/3rd less. The fuel estimates were between the two engine types were based off their specs, The KdT's actually burned more fuel than originally estimated, the four strokes will therefore burn less fuel at about the same rate of reduction as the two strokes do now. The simple fact is that the EMD's in the KdT's are under their efficiency envelope, which is about 80% power output and therefore will burn way more fuel than an appropriate four stoke which is more power to fuel proportionate. In the bigger Olympic class they will hopefully be near the efficiency range and do better and probably burn about the same as the Kdt's do.
No route specific boats? What then is going to happen to Keystone or Point Defiance, or Inter-Island? First due to draft you can't run the big boats at Keystone, and why would it be OK to run the operating costs up on the other two routes when the capacity is not needed? That's why I am all for am better smaller boat, one way or another.
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Post by Kahloke on May 23, 2014 4:47:07 GMT -8
Time will tell if WSF built the Olympics too small but they have a Jumbo MkII design that has been proven reliable if they need bigger boats. I don't think you will see any other new boats until the Supers need to be retired however. I would like to see WSF lengthen the OC design for "Flight 2" of the new-build program. If you were to lengthen it by a standard car length, that would net you an additional 11 car spaces for a total of 155, which isn't a tremendous amount more capacity-wise, but it would be a useful increase, particularly on the Seattle-Bremerton and Anacortes-San Juan Islands routes. Yes, I suppose you could widen the design, too, to gain even more vehicle spaces, but then you start mucking about with the hull efficiencies, how much water is being pushed, etc. It seems to me that a simple lengthening might actually improve dynamics a bit and also the proportions of the vessel from a design standpoint, but this has all been discussed before.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on May 26, 2014 13:46:36 GMT -8
From the deck of the MV TACOMA on Friday, May 23, 2014, we see the MV TOKITAE, MV YAKIMA, a navy ship, and the MV SAMISH at Vigor. The third Oly is in the "hole". MV TOKITAE and MV YAKIMA at Vigor. A mast of the MV SAMISH is south of the TOKITAE and YAKIMA.
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Post by chokai on May 27, 2014 13:53:23 GMT -8
Tokitae just left Vigor. It was notable as she did it all on her own today without tugs for the first time.
Also I chatted with some WSF employees on the Mukilteo/Clinton run this weekend, they are pretty confident they will not be getting her on time.
edit: And she's back. She's on the furthest west finger pier so she's likely very photogenic from Jack Block park for you photog guys out there.
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Post by chokai on May 29, 2014 9:51:47 GMT -8
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Post by chokai on Jun 2, 2014 12:34:45 GMT -8
Tokitae has touched a WSF dock for the first time today. This is a great picture as it shows just how much bigger (at least height wise) the Olympic Class ferries are than the Issaquah's. I'll post more pictures when I get home this evening. Attachments:
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lifc
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Post by lifc on Jun 2, 2014 14:48:24 GMT -8
It's those huge stacks that makes it look so much bigger.
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Post by northwesterner on Jun 2, 2014 17:24:23 GMT -8
Tokitae has touched a WSF dock for the first time today. This is a great picture as it shows just how much bigger (at least height wise) the Olympic Class ferries are than the Issaquah's. I'll post more pictures when I get home this evening. And of course, she's next to the Sealth, in service on the Bremerton route...
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Mayne
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Post by Mayne on Jun 2, 2014 21:55:49 GMT -8
While away from my computer today, I was watching any movements of the TOKITAE on my phone. Here's a result: The TOKITAE sneaks around the Bremerton end of the WALLA WALLA. Like what happened during the delivery of the KDT ferries, the TOKITAE was delivered by tugs. The TOKITAE was delivered to Colman Dock rather than Eagle Harbor, the KDTs' port of delivery. I'll let you guess the names of the tuggy boats which did the "stork duty" in the delivery of that big new baby of the green and white family. No offence but why even post this?
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Post by chokai on Jun 2, 2014 22:12:44 GMT -8
Here are several more pictures of better quality taken this afternoon that show her in comparison to Sealth, Walla Walla and the front end of one of the JMII's (I didn't check to see which one). I was not able to get outside due to meetings but fortunately the windows of our building were recently cleaned so they aren't terrible other than the occasional glare.
I think her stacks are not the only thing that make her appear much bulkier, while the Issaquah's pilot houses are elevated it's about half a deck over the roof of the passenger cabin, Tokitae's sundeck adds a full deck to her wheel house level. And the bulky deck house the funnels sit on those void spaces and electronics room to make it even more pronounced. She's just basically got a nearly a whole additional deck before you get to the "crew only" sections.
Also Kitsap sun posted this article: www.kitsapsun.com/news/2014/jun/02/newest-ferry-now-in-states-hands/
Turns out the delay was for Rolls-Royce to fine tune the rudders. I'd suspected something was up with the steering after watching her slalom all over the sound especially up near Magnolia where I could see her the last two weeks, but just wasn't sure.
My one remaining hope is that someone on a WSF crew takes her up to Penn Cove during testing to pay our respect to one of her namesakes.
Ok and I really wanna see what the cabin interior looks like! See ya'll on Sunday. :-P
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SolDuc
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Post by SolDuc on Jun 2, 2014 22:58:36 GMT -8
Woops, it looks like someone over at the Sun didn't have their cup of coffee this morning...
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Post by trillium on Jun 3, 2014 4:57:35 GMT -8
The Tokitae is showing up on VesselWatch now. The unusual thing is that its three-letter code is currently "WSF".
Lance
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Jun 3, 2014 9:48:00 GMT -8
Ship trackers show the TOKITAE out on the sound again this morning. She did a landing at NVI. Now, she's northbound in Possession Sound.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Jun 3, 2014 10:47:52 GMT -8
The TOKITAE made her first landings at the Columbia Beach (Clinton) and the Mukilteo ferry docks on Tuesday, June 3, 2014. Welcome to Whidbey Island, TOKITAE hull. Welcome back to Whidbey Island, TOKITAE superstructure.
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