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Post by Mike C on Oct 28, 2014 22:52:15 GMT -8
First of all, I think it's a bit disappointing that this thread has gotten completely off kilter, with no discussion of the actual thread heading. I'd encourage people to read the document... or at least, skim it. There's a lot there to interest transportation nerds and fans alike. I'm currently plowing through it, belatedly, and I'll have some comments.
OK, I will bite with a thought, since I am procrastinating a major paper. I have, in the past, been an advocate for lower-cost, passenger-only supplemental service. I believe that the ferries should not only function as part of the highway network, but also as an integral part of the transit network as well. I envision such a strategy as current terminals operating as a "park-and-ride", and foot ferries operating to major centers (Quadra Island to Campbell River, Gravelly Bay/Shingle Spit into Comox, Gabriola into Nanaimo, Texada to Westview, etc). These centers all have existing transit services that would require little/no alteration. I am pretty disappointed that this wasn't considered outside the context of Route 2. I think BCF really missed an opportunity to reduce costs and still meet passenger needs (to an extent).
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KE7JFF
Chief Steward
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Post by KE7JFF on Oct 29, 2014 14:08:25 GMT -8
My main observation is that Horseshoe Bay is at or near its limits due to its location and its neighbors. If there is a demand to keep it open, I say lets transfer some of the traffic on Route 2 to end at Duke Point.
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Post by Balfour on Nov 4, 2014 16:57:46 GMT -8
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KE7JFF
Chief Steward
Posts: 106
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Post by KE7JFF on Nov 4, 2014 17:26:37 GMT -8
Interesting the article makes more of a deal out of Horseshoe Bay; it makes it sound like that is the choke point of the route...
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Post by princessofvanfan on Nov 4, 2014 18:47:18 GMT -8
Just saw on Global News Hour BCF is planning possible service cuts or elimination altogether of route 2. I think service reduction to, maybe, 3 sailings a day to maintain service to Whistler and North/West Van would make sense. Anyone?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 4, 2014 18:49:34 GMT -8
Just saw on Global News Hour BCF is planning possible service cuts or elimination altogether of route 2. I think service reduction to, maybe, 3 sailings a day to maintain service to Whistler and North/West Van would make sense. Anyone? Yup, we've been discussing it here, for the last month. My recommendation is to start at the beginning of this thread, for full context. And of course read the efficiencies-report.
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Post by gordon on Nov 4, 2014 19:23:54 GMT -8
Is there enough Capacity @ both Tsawwassen & Duke Point to handle a combined Route #2 & 30?
How easy wold it be o get an opreational 2nd berth @ duke?
The vehicle transfer ramps that are the issue @ Horseshoe are used by route #3 vehicles as well so the upgrades would have to be done on them in any event, Could this be done with the other 2 routes in full operation?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2014 19:50:55 GMT -8
Is there enough Capacity @ both Tsawwassen & Duke Point to handle a combined Route #2 & 30? How easy wold it be o get an opreational 2nd berth @ duke? The vehicle transfer ramps that are the issue @ Horseshoe are used by route #3 vehicles as well so the upgrades would have to be done on them in any event, Could this be done with the other 2 routes in full operation? I think there is enough capacity at TSA, but Duke Point would need more space and a 2nd Berth for sure.
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Post by Dane on Nov 4, 2014 20:07:47 GMT -8
Before we start this discussion from scratch again....
The initial reaction to these somewhat misreported potential changes has been really harsh and really fast. So it will be interesting to watch how the government responds, since BCFS private side can get away with saying any tow the line response they're not particularly relevant. There will come a point that even the BC Liberals who have been transparent in their complete indifference to the ferry system will have to respond to poor management and decisions that are against the public interest.
The "good news" is they just stirred among the only group of ferry users that actually vote Liberal.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 4, 2014 20:49:19 GMT -8
Is there enough Capacity @ both Tsawwassen & Duke Point to handle a combined Route #2 & 30? How easy wold it be o get an opreational 2nd berth @ duke? The vehicle transfer ramps that are the issue @ Horseshoe are used by route #3 vehicles as well so the upgrades would have to be done on them in any event, Could this be done with the other 2 routes in full operation? How many $ millions will be spent in order to avoid spending $200 million at Horseshoe Bay? How many extra $ millions will be spent yearly operating the ferries over a substantially longer route (significant increase in fuel burn, wages, wear & tear on vessels)?
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Nov 4, 2014 21:55:32 GMT -8
Before we start this discussion from scratch again.... The initial reaction to these somewhat misreported potential changes has been really harsh and really fast. So it will be interesting to watch how the government responds, since BCFS private side can get away with saying any tow the line response they're not particularly relevant. There will come a point that even the BC Liberals who have been transparent in their complete indifference to the ferry system will have to respond to poor management and decisions that are against the public interest. The "good news" is they just stirred among the only group of ferry users that actually vote Liberal. Seriously Dane... Don't count on it. Their transparent indifference is so utterly complete that as long as they have a majority, they will do nothing. The article seems to suggest they have already made their decision anyway, because the ever-so-wise Todd Stone doesn't believe that costly upgrades to infrastructure in Horseshoe Bay is necessary. Since it seems like Todd Stone is the most outspoken member of the Liberal party these days, we can easily be forgiven for assuming that the decisions have already been made and public interest is not a factor in the decision making process. I do note, however, that the idea of consolidating the two Nanaimo terminals into one at Duke Point would most definitely require the construction of at least one additional berth, there, so how would that be any different that upgrading existing structures at Horseshoe Bay? Would do these people learn to think in the directions that they do? Their whole ideology seems to be based on the idea that simply not spending money is the same thing as saving money, but it doesn't work that way, and sometimes money needs to be spent and no amount of refusing to spend it will actually equal out to any savings in the long run. What will happen when Tsawwassen's infrastructure becomes overutilized from serving increased traffic diverted from the Horseshoe Bay run, and it needs upgrades? The ramps leading up to at least two of the major berths there probably will need replacing in a few years because they are decades old. I guess when that happens, we can just close Tsawwassen down except for route 9, and all traffic can move to Harbour Air. They better start buying up some cargo planes now.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 5, 2014 8:03:37 GMT -8
Is there enough Capacity @ both Tsawwassen & Duke Point to handle a combined Route #2 & 30? How easy wold it be o get an opreational 2nd berth @ duke? The vehicle transfer ramps that are the issue @ Horseshoe are used by route #3 vehicles as well so the upgrades would have to be done on them in any event, Could this be done with the other 2 routes in full operation? Start at the beginning of this thread, and also read the efficiencies-report. Read the various discussions that we've been having here for the past month, and then we'll talk.... ----------- ps: "Vehicle Transfer Ramp" is not an issue. It's a media mistake. The real issue is the two-level vehicle holding compound.
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Post by gordon on Nov 5, 2014 9:39:09 GMT -8
Could the marine at Horseshoe Bay congestion be dealt with by developing the 2n berth @ Duke Point & running the 2nd route 2 peak time vessel om route 30 thus reducing maroine & land congestion @ Horseshoe Bay.
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Post by ferrytraveller on Nov 5, 2014 9:53:42 GMT -8
Some things about running route 2 from tsawwassen. The second berth in duke point is as most of us know partially built. Mostly it requires line dolphins, wing walls and ramps. Space in Tsawwassen is not an issue, especially since berths 1 and 2 are slated for rebuild to (potentially) double decked standards in the next few years. IT would cost approx. 20 million per berth if all structures were removed and rebuilt, As per past bcf news release. Any decision to not rebuild the parkade like structure in HSB is fiscally responsible if another suitable option can be found.
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Post by DENelson83 on Nov 5, 2014 12:41:03 GMT -8
I think the Departure Bay terminal can safely be closed down. I'm sure that most people living in the Brechin Hill area would love to eliminate all that ferry traffic through their neighbourhood, and I'm sure that travellers on Route 2 between Horseshoe Bay and Nanaimo would enjoy not having to go through the gauntlet of traffic signals through North Nanaimo or disturb residents living on Northfield Road. But do not cut that route altogether; just move its Nanaimo terminus to Duke Point. Vancouver and Burnaby are big traffic choke points, and it is unnecessary to have to spend more time in traffic just to get from North Vancouver Island to the North Shore or to Whistler. Duke Point can easily be expanded to four berths, three service berths plus a storage berth like Berth 1 at Departure Bay, and if the vehicle traffic marshalling is done properly at Horseshoe Bay, service there can be streamlined to an adequate extent. If BC Ferries wants to really move ahead with the closure of Route 2, why don't they ask the provincial government to commit to building that "third crossing" highway through the mountains between Powell River and Squamish?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2014 19:16:57 GMT -8
Here's the latest media article on the reorganization. As always, there is a lot of sensation. Good old Todd Stone even reassured the media that he was convinced not to cancel route 2. Not sure what he meant there, but having a passive manner definitely eases the pain, at least in terms of public relations. This article at least has an outline of changes within the company over Performance Term 4. BC Ferries Nanaimo-Horseshoe Bay route will not be cut says minister Transportation Minister Todd Stone rules out the elimination of service between Horseshoe Bay and Nanaimo www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-ferries-nanaimo-horseshoe-bay-route-will-not-be-cut-says-minister-1.2825374
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Post by Scott on Nov 5, 2014 21:11:27 GMT -8
Here's the latest media article on the reorganization. As always, there is a lot of sensation. Good old Todd Stone even reassured the media that he was convinced not to cancel route 2. Not sure what he meant there, but having a passive manner definitely eases the pain, at least in terms of public relations. This article at least has an outline of changes within the company over Performance Term 4. Is the BC Government making decisions for BC Ferries? Who would have guessed? I can't find any online news stories about Mike Corrigan's (BC Ferries CEO) response to Todd Stone's assurances today, but I heard a little clip on the news tonight on the way home and there are a few "tweets" on Twitter from various news outlets that indicate that if Todd Stone is going to make this decision, it will require major fare hikes or additional money from the government to cover these improvement costs over the next 10 years. A few headlines from Twitter: CKNW @cknw 3h3 hours ago "Don't see any scenario where we can keep fares to inflation without #BCGov putting more money into ferry system" says @bcferries CEO. Keith Baldrey @keithbaldrey 3h3 hours ago On @globalbc NH: BC Ferries estimates govt. will need to increase ferry subsidy by $45 million over 4 yrs. to keep fare hikes at inflation. Keith Baldrey @keithbaldrey 1h1 hour ago Have to say tensions between BC Ferries and BC govt. have never been higher than they seem to be right now. #bcpoli - John H
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Post by Scott on Nov 5, 2014 21:16:05 GMT -8
Does anyone know how this would work or how this would save money? I can't find any further details in the reports, other than what's been printed in the news story. - John H
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,172
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Post by Neil on Nov 5, 2014 21:41:14 GMT -8
Every time Todd Stone opens his mouth about ferries, I have less respect for the man.
Now he's making political hay, playing good cop/bad cop with Ferries' management, riding to the defense of route two after those nasty BC Ferries guys suggested axing it. And who inspired him on this file? Why, it was those shining knights McRae and Stilwell, the two lonely Liberal MLAs who managed to get elected on the coast and who have 'lobbied' for the interests of ferry users.
There are also NDP MLAs who've lobbied on ferry matters, as well as business groups, civic groups, and FACs... but, well... those are just 'special interest' rabble rousers who don't count.
In 2003, we were told that part of the reason for the creation of BC Ferries as a 'private' entity was to remove politics from ferry policy. Our boy Todd apparently didn't get the memo. But then, as I posted with Christy's earlier pronouncement about ferry matters, times change along with the political agenda.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 5, 2014 21:47:39 GMT -8
Is the BC Government making decisions for BC Ferries? Who would have guessed? From time to time since the day they created this pretend private company, the BC Libs have wandered in to 'interfere'. That is as it should be, but it seems to be entirely random as to when they do interfere. This time, apparently a couple of Vancouver Island Liberal MLA's got the ear of Todd, and presto, Todd intervenes. The government has happily sat back & let BC Ferries take the heat for cuts that have already been made, such as those to the life line routes. MLA's have complained bitterly, but they were NDP MLA's and can be ignored entirely. This mess gets messier, day by day...
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 5, 2014 21:51:34 GMT -8
Does anyone know how this would work or how this would save money? I can't find any further details in the reports, other than what's been printed in the news story. From a July 21, 2014 post in the "new vessels: route 9 & 17" thread: I think this just means that it gives BCF more flexibility to not have to dead-head a vessel back to a home-port, or to quickly transfer one ship to another route without changing crews. So it saves on fuel costs and on travel/accomodation/training costs.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 5, 2014 21:55:25 GMT -8
That info is all well & fine Mr. Horn, but how might that lead to savings? I am thinking that it would lead to additional expenses... Any idea where BCFS gets this notion?
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Post by Taxman on Nov 5, 2014 22:06:38 GMT -8
I think that discussing service to the mid-island terminal situation is a good idea, as things haven't changed since the 90s and I wonder if some efficiencies could be found. As we approach the end of the useful life for the "C" classes and the New Westminster, I wonder if moving to a single service access point in Nanaimo would allow better use of assets. I remember in the past, when Rtes. 2 and 30 were both out of DPB, my parents pulling up and simply requesting whatever boat they would get on first. Normally it was HSB, but occasionally it was TSW.
That said, despite the comments made, from both Downtown Vancouver and the Highway 1 HOV ramp, it appears to be faster to get to Horseshoe Bay than Tsawwassen (at least at 10pm on a Wednesday). Finally, I think change should not be made for change sake, and that the decision should be clearly justifiable in the end.
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Post by gordon on Nov 6, 2014 7:18:23 GMT -8
Now that the transportation minister has nixed the route 2\30 consolidation plan could some efficiencies be derived from running all peak period extra sailings on Route 30 to reduce congestion @ Horseshoe Bay?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 6, 2014 7:58:42 GMT -8
That info is all well & fine Mr. Horn, but how might that lead to savings? I am thinking that it would lead to additional expenses... Any idea where BCFS gets this notion? I stayed up past my bedtime to hunt down that reference (it took a while). So I didn't have time for doing any critical-analysis. I was just trying to be helpful, because I vaguely remembered seeing that item somewhere, and I was glad to find it. There've been so many reports and documents in the past 6 months related to BCF. As to the question of how this might lead to savings, I've got some ideas, but no time for rapid-fire debate on it today.
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