Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 18, 2015 19:50:11 GMT -8
Amazing. I don't see any proposals here that look like service cuts. There are what appear to be considerable improvements, at least from a tourist point of view, in increased connections from Tsawwassen. Early sailings from the mainland and evening departures from the islands mean day trips will be much more feasible. Even Saturna would be doable, if a bit awkward, for some day trips, which it isn't really at present.
Of course, the Long Harbour based vessel will have a capacity decrease of 45 from the 'Nanaimo, but the Tsawwassen based vessel will have an increase of 75 from the Bowen Queen. No actual improvement there, given that the second vessel won't operate quite as much. I'll be watching intently for feedback from islanders on these proposals.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 18, 2015 20:01:15 GMT -8
Amazing. I don't see any proposals here that look like service cuts. There are what appear to be considerable improvements, at least from a tourist point of view, in increased connections from Tsawwassen. Early sailings from the mainland and evening departures from the islands mean day trips will be much more feasible. Even Saturna would be doable, if a bit awkward, for some day trips, which it isn't really at present.
Of course, the Long Harbour based vessel will have a capacity decrease of 45 from the 'Nanaimo, but the Tsawwassen based vessel will have an increase of 75 from the Bowen Queen. No actual improvement there, given that the second vessel won't operate quite as much. I'll be watching intently for feedback from islanders on these proposals.
I was waiting for someone else to chime in on these schedules. I'm no expert on the SGI schedules as written. As long as I can remember (more than 20 years) the schedules have been incomprehensible, with ferries running all over the place, on a different pattern, on each day of the week. This proposal cuts back on that, quite a bit. At this point, the current SGI schedule is so goofy, and has been that way for so long, that I would find it far fetched to believe that anyone at BCF can explain why each trip is scheduled the way it is. Starting from scratch will help. We should note that they have not specified which terminal on SSI they intend to use. There has long been discussion of closing one of them and while we tend to believe that is impractical, it does not make clear that SSI is the Long Harbour terminal. Finally, the only thing that seems a little goofy to me is combining almost-always pairing the Galiano and Saturn trips. While the stated reason is for vessel capacity (differentiate between the very different Mayne Queen and Queen of Cumberland, which currently are almost interchangeable) it does seem weird to run past Village Bay on all those trips without stopping. I guess Montague Harbour would be very handy for this proposal, if it was still around.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 18, 2015 21:04:40 GMT -8
Amazing. I don't see any proposals here that look like service cuts. There are what appear to be considerable improvements, at least from a tourist point of view, in increased connections from Tsawwassen. Early sailings from the mainland and evening departures from the islands mean day trips will be much more feasible. Even Saturna would be doable, if a bit awkward, for some day trips, which it isn't really at present.
Of course, the Long Harbour based vessel will have a capacity decrease of 45 from the 'Nanaimo, but the Tsawwassen based vessel will have an increase of 75 from the Bowen Queen. No actual improvement there, given that the second vessel won't operate quite as much. I'll be watching intently for feedback from islanders on these proposals.
I was waiting for someone else to chime in on these schedules. I'm no expert on the SGI schedules as written. As long as I can remember (more than 20 years) the schedules have been incomprehensible, with ferries running all over the place, on a different pattern, on each day of the week. This proposal cuts back on that, quite a bit. At this point, the current SGI schedule is so goofy, and has been that way for so long, that I would find it far fetched to believe that anyone at BCF can explain why each trip is scheduled the way it is. Starting from scratch will help. We should note that they have not specified which terminal on SSI they intend to use. There has long been discussion of closing one of them and while we tend to believe that is impractical, it does not make clear that SSI is the Long Harbour terminal. Finally, the only thing that seems a little goofy to me is combining almost-always pairing the Galiano and Saturn trips. While the stated reason is for vessel capacity (differentiate between the very different Mayne Queen and Queen of Cumberland, which currently are almost interchangeable) it does seem weird to run past Village Bay on all those trips without stopping. I guess Montague Harbour would be very handy for this proposal, if it was still around. Route nine has to use Long Harbour, and there's no suggestion here of a change. Although Fulford is being expanded, it won't be for a while, and even then there would be no room for a full load of traffic for Swartz Bay as well as Tsawwassen.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 18, 2015 21:56:51 GMT -8
Route nine has to use Long Harbour, and there's no suggestion here of a change. Although Fulford is being expanded, it won't be for a while, and even then there would be no room for a full load of traffic for Swartz Bay as well as Tsawwassen. Neil, earlier in this thread, there was discussion, and links to documents from BCF specifically identifying the feasibility of rationalizing the three terminals on Salt Spring Island. These docs from BCF are from less than a year ago. This rationalization determination was to be included as part of this schedule change process. We have yet to have BCF specifically say that the elimination and consolidation of one of the terminals is off the table. I tend to believe (and agree with you) that it is an impossibility to close Long Harbour. I also thought the cable ferry was an impossibility (well, it may still be, but...).
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Post by roeco on Aug 19, 2015 21:23:56 GMT -8
I wonder what happened to the direct Mayne to Saturna service that was proposed...It could be viable using a smaller vessel.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 19, 2015 21:49:20 GMT -8
I wonder what happened to the direct Mayne to Saturna service that was proposed...It could be viable using a smaller vessel. But BC Ferries has no smaller vessel, and there would be the matter of crewing it from Mayne or Saturna. I think that notion was just BC Ferries wanting to be seen to be exploring all options.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 5:13:42 GMT -8
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 20, 2015 7:18:32 GMT -8
Here's another Stephen Hume article. This one is on the push-back of Saturna residents, about losing their (more-or-less) direct connection to Victoria. That direct link to Mayne study done by some residents was interesting, but I imagine having to transfer at Mayne would also extend the crossing time a bit. Less than zero sympathy here. The current SGI schedule is a mess. The new one is not perfect (as I noted before) but is much more understandable. Just because they way things always have been a certain way doesn't mean they should continue that way. The current SGI schedule certainly does not serve a lot of people and business well, for residents amongst all the islands. It probably doesn't even serve the Saturna residents well, but they're use to it, and they've set their lives up around what currently exists. BCF is asking everyone, on all islands, to adjust to what is a more rational schedule. These guys don't want to change a thing... and that's unreasonable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 7:27:08 GMT -8
A mess? Don't forget that the route 5 schedule has been almost unchanged for 20+ years.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2015 10:37:39 GMT -8
Here's another Stephen Hume article. This one is on the push-back of Saturna residents, about losing their (more-or-less) direct connection to Victoria. That direct link to Mayne study done by some residents was interesting, but I imagine having to transfer at Mayne would also extend the crossing time a bit. Less than zero sympathy here. The current SGI schedule is a mess. The new one is not perfect (as I noted before) but is much more understandable. Just because they way things always have been a certain way doesn't mean they should continue that way. The current SGI schedule certainly does not serve a lot of people and business well, for residents amongst all the islands. It probably doesn't even serve the Saturna residents well, but they're use to it, and they've set their lives up around what currently exists. BCF is asking everyone, on all islands, to adjust to what is a more rational schedule. These guys don't want to change a thing... and that's unreasonable. "Less than zero sympathy here". Really? Are you speaking from the standpoint of someone who knows about the transportation needs of Saturna Islanders ?
Apparently, islanders don't share your confusion about understanding schedules, current or otherwise. The actual service, and how it facilitates business and personal travel, is more important than the tidiness of the schedule. Hopefully this 'consultation' process will actually result in islanders' voices being heard.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 20, 2015 18:24:35 GMT -8
"Less than zero sympathy here". Really? Are you speaking from the standpoint of someone who knows about the transportation needs of Saturna Islanders ?
Apparently, islanders don't share your confusion about understanding schedules, current or otherwise. The actual service, and how it facilitates business and personal travel, is more important than the tidiness of the schedule. Hopefully this 'consultation' process will actually result in islanders' voices being heard.
I will admit, I can get very frustrated when I see responses from upset constituents to changes during public consultation processes that amount to "the sky is falling if you change it" given the proposal is reasonable (though not perfect). This happens a lot specifically when relating to public transportation, whether it is buses or ferries. The only account we have of the public meeting thus far is from Mr. Hume, who has shown himself to be an excellent voice against some of the crazy decisions that BC Ferries has made over the last few years. However, unlike of the more unpopular strong arm tactics that BCFerries has pushed on provincial residents the last few years (Discovery Coast debacle, Cable Ferry cluster, etc), the background work staff has done regarding the SGI schedule seems, and fair. I take a couple of issues with your perspective here, Neil. I read and occasionally comment on a reasonably well written blog about issues in the Seattle School District. I am neither a student, a teacher, or a parent. I read the blog because it documents many of the operational issues the district faces in delivering the product (eduction) to their customers (students), mostly because no one on staff can get their heads around the operation. As someone who is in graduate school specifically studying how to solve complex operational issues and achieving operational excellence, I find a wealth of issues to think about on a blog that is totally otherwise unrelated to my life. And what you've said above is the same thing many of the writers on that blog say about education. "The only ones who know what my student needs to succeed are myself as the parent and my teacher. And anyone else making suggestions is out of line." This is a common position towards public staff delivering a commoditized product that could be customized (but isn't always) to individual needs. It is, usually, an unsustainable position, both in education, and in public transportation. At that meeting, if staff had called a time-out and said it is obvious that, nearly unanimously, you guys hate this proposal. How about each of you write down your ideal schedule (given set parameters) and we'll take a look. If there were 250 people there as Hume reported, BCF would receive 250 totally different schedules as each individual has different preferences. So if the only people who know, what is needed to serve Saturna are the ones who live on Saturna, and they must be listened to, how do you come to an agreement on what the service should look like? And that is only the single context, here. There are four other islands that need to be served, and as noted, routes 5 and 9 schedules are totally intertwined due to the current reliance transfer to from the route 9 vessel at Village Bay. What happens for one island, has to take into account, the needs of all the other islands at the same time. The next problem, and what really wound me up when I read the Hume piece is what is another thing I often hear. "The current arrangement is fine because I can do A,B,C without problem and it works for me. The reason I use the service / live here / etc is so I can do A, B, and C." This does not take into account all the potential trips, that do not currently happen, because they cannot be done, because the current schedule does not accommodate them. This is much harder for an upset crowd in a public forum to understand. All they know is they've done something a certain way for forever, and now they will have to make a modification to that. My undergraduate degree is in economics; I particularly enjoy History of Economic Thought and some of the more philosophical theories that have become the basis of our modern capitalist and financial system. A good example of what I'm trying to explain can be found in Bastiat's Parable of the Broken Window ( Here). While some may ignore the parable because he reads as too libertarian, he is trying to illustrate the concept of opportunity cost (which is one of the basic laws of economics). It's interesting, especially if you take the same ideals and apply it to the Saturna situation. We know what is. BCFerries may, with some tweaks, be able to restore most of what is. And like doctors, the first rule of planning should be to do no harm. But with this change in vessel mix underway, the status quo is not tenable, so BCF needs to figure out how to make changes and create a win-win for constituents on five islands. We do not know what is currently unseen (trips that are not occurring because the schedule does not accommodate them). You can't quantify what is unseen. What planners (in general) and BCF (more specifically) need to do a better job of is qualifying some of the potential trips that are currently not occurring. Sell that to the residents. Let them know what the improvements are. And then, go back and see how the major, specific complaints can be accommodated. If you don't, you get meetings like what happened on Saturna, where the pitchforks come out and ultimately, everyone loses.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 18:31:49 GMT -8
Sorry northwesterner, I didn't feel like reading your entire story there. That's just too much for one post.
What's pissing us off is outsiders saying things like "just suck it up" (quote from Luke) when residents bring up concerns like this. I'm sure you're aware that Mr. Hume always sides with ferry travellers, and it is pointed out that he was a Saturna Islander at one point. I think its valid to bring up concerns as these guys are, which is why consultations are set up in the first place. If people didn't care about these things, what would be the point of spending the money for the open houses?
I think we need to relax here, and not get worked up about a ferry schedule.
PS: the document talks about 5 vessels. Are they grouping the Skeena Queen in that?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 20, 2015 18:53:40 GMT -8
What planners (in general) and BCF (more specifically) need to do a better job of is qualifying some of the potential trips that are currently not occurring. Sell that to the residents. Let them know what the improvements are. And then, go back and see how the major, specific complaints can be accommodated. If you don't, you get meetings like what happened on Saturna, where the pitchforks come out and ultimately, everyone loses. Northwesterner: Thanks for taking the time for that well thought-out and detailed post, including your linked citing. I really appreciate it, because it allows me to learn from other people's points of view and experiences. Keep on doing it... ------------ ps: I think the previous post might have had a question at the end, but I'm not sure. I didn't care to read that far...
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Post by Mike on Aug 20, 2015 18:56:13 GMT -8
Sorry northwesterner, I didn't feel like reading your entire story there. That's just too much for one post. Coincidentally, "suck it up" would be an appropriate reply to this sort of remark.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 19:08:34 GMT -8
Sorry northwesterner, I didn't feel like reading your entire story there. That's just too much for one post. Coincidentally, "suck it up" would be an appropriate reply to this sort of remark. Very good point there.
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Post by Mike C on Aug 20, 2015 19:23:58 GMT -8
"Less than zero sympathy here". Really? Are you speaking from the standpoint of someone who knows about the transportation needs of Saturna Islanders ?
Apparently, islanders don't share your confusion about understanding schedules, current or otherwise. The actual service, and how it facilitates business and personal travel, is more important than the tidiness of the schedule. Hopefully this 'consultation' process will actually result in islanders' voices being heard.
What planners (in general) and BCF (more specifically) need to do a better job of is qualifying some of the potential trips that are currently not occurring. Sell that to the residents. Let them know what the improvements are. And then, go back and see how the major, specific complaints can be accommodated. If you don't, you get meetings like what happened on Saturna, where the pitchforks come out and ultimately, everyone loses. I have spent the past four months doing public consultation around the regional district of Fraser-Fort George on waste management - more specifically, the new MMBC recycling program and other product stewardship programs in place. And my friend, you have hit the nail on the head here with pretty well everything you've said, but this last section is really important to emphasize. Stakeholders always need to be presented with the opportunities of a new proposal, or else they become blinded by the drawbacks. That's a simple reality of any consultation. (Unless of course, you're doing consultation for a cable ferry, then good luck coming up with some positives.) A good method that I learned to draw on complaints, is to have each participant write a complaint on a post-it, and stick it on a wall. Then, group the complaints together under a certain number of categories, and draw on each category for actionable tasks from the feedback received. That's a very specific example / suggestion, but I think one that would work effectively in this situation. Doing consultation in anything transportation or community service-related is an immense challenge. Granted, these are services that Saturna residents absolutely rely on, and there is a good chance that these changes could impact a work schedule, delivery schedule, or even businesses ability to function, and that is a really important consideration. These schedules also have not changed in a great period of time, which deepens the cut for those affected, which can create an emotional response. Sorry northwesterner, I didn't feel like reading your entire story there. That's just too much for one post. From a moderator perspective, this post was just clutter, and from a personal perspective, this was an incredibly rude comment. You have essentially nullified anything you say after this. Next time, amp up the literacy and read the post you're responding to.
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Post by Dane on Aug 20, 2015 19:44:35 GMT -8
I will add to the not overly sympathetic crowd. There's about as many seats in a Spirit-class cafeteria as there is residents on Saturn. It is a minor miracle they have ferry service to begin with. Before someone takes this wildly out of context I am not saying Saturn should not have ferry service, but in the big picture scenario here it seems like Saturn does get hit a bit at the expense of other needed improvements. I am strongly pro-publicly subsidized ferry service, but somewhere - and I am not actually sure where that is - a line needs to be drawn on how much service is provided to very small places.
Today I actually had an opportunity to look at the slide deck and compare it with current schedules. It seems like this is a generally good news story, which is a rarity in BC Ferries land.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2015 20:30:16 GMT -8
northwesterner, in your second most recent post, you started off by declaring zero sympathy for the concerns of Saturna Islanders, and after a couple more terse points, you finished by declaring that they were opposed to any change. Both statements were unreasonable.
If Saturna is anything like Hornby, the FAC there has probably been dealing with BC Ferries for many years in a reasonable manner, presenting islander concerns and absorbing the ongoing provincial ferry policies with a realistic mindset. I would remind you, and MileagePhoto, that there has indeed been a great deal of change to Saturna's ferry service over the years- namely, constant fare increases far in advance of the cost of living. These fare increases have limited personal mobility and hindered business in the same way that actual schedule cuts might. Given this reality, it's understandable that Saturnians look with a jaundiced eye upon proposed changes that might further impact mobility. It's not, as MileagePhoto suggests, just an 'emotional response'. It's a question of what some see as community viability.
Dane suggests that Saturna might not deserve the level of service they now get. Saturna has about the same population as Thetis; Thetis has ten ferries a day, Saturna has four, the fewest of any island in southern BC with car ferry service. I would suggest that if people move to a community and start families and businesses with the understanding that there is a certain level of connectivity to the outside world, that connection should be maintained, whether by road of boat. Dane, name me one community in BC that has not had a population drop but has had it's road access diminished.
In this instance, I'm not really interested in the minutiae or philosophy of transportation planning, or the academic aspects of the argument. Saturna Islanders have expressed concerns over possible changes to their connection with the outside world. Hopefully, there will be real consultation, and the needs of the community will be accorded at least the same importance as the narrow interests of the agency that provides the transportation.
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Post by Dane on Aug 20, 2015 21:41:02 GMT -8
I actually did not suggest they do not deserve the level of service they get now - I said that the adjustment is an expensive of other improvements. There are also larger Islands with no service. It seems that the problem is with a reduction in inter-Island service as trips to Victoria remain unchanged other than the time adjustment?
Someone somewhere in this process is going to lose. So if it is not going to be Saturna who is it? Or maybe they can buy an Albion ferry and duplicate the service levels Thetis gets?
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 20, 2015 22:02:44 GMT -8
Dane,
Did the spell checking auto correct function trip you up? I believe the Island in question is named Saturna.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2015 22:10:52 GMT -8
- I said that the adjustment is an expensive of other improvements. There are also larger Islands with no service. Someone somewhere in this process is going to lose. I simply don't understand the first part, and as to the last line, why is someone going to 'lose', when BC Ferries has said that the purpose is to improve schedules? And doesn't your statement that it's a "minor miracle" that they even have ferry service suggest they could do with less?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2015 22:55:46 GMT -8
In this instance, I'm not really interested in the minutiae or philosophy of transportation planning, or the academic aspects of the argument. A p.s. to the evening's exchange...
I stand by all the other comments I made, but this remark could be seen as overly brusque and dismissive of northwesterner's well organized thoughts in his previous post. That wasn't my intent, particularly since I'm not the only one to express a wish for more thoughtful posts on this forum. I've got time to read everyone's input, even if I don't agree with it.
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Post by Dane on Aug 21, 2015 8:15:28 GMT -8
Minor miracle was more an abstract point related to how they got service in the first place at the development of the ferry system.
In a multiple stop, multi-vessel interconnected schedule someone is going to feel like they've lost... Personally I've never seen a schedule change on a transportation network that met with universal praise from every involved group. Particularly when the organization leading the change is almost universally disliked by the clients.
SGI residents / FAC have been complaining about the schedule for years. At least insofar as route 9 is concerned change is essentially being forced due to new vessels, and that change has a carry over effect for route 5 with a reduction of some intra-Islands connections.
The ferry change to Saturn is one hour which then facilitates a direct sailing with the same vessel to another Island after. Potentially this could be cancelled, and the meetings in the coming weeks could measure the appetite for that. I'm going to go out on a limb, though, and suggest each Island will actively lobby for their highest level of service and understandably so.
If a solution is being offered I wouldn't be surprised to see it entertained. BC Ferries has demonstrated flexibility on other routes if cost neutral solutions are brought forward. Most notably route 3 has some fairly big changes over the last few years.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2015 14:35:21 GMT -8
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Post by Dane on Nov 23, 2015 16:32:17 GMT -8
Alright time for someone smart to do an analysis on this for us! I just read the document, but as I've previously mentioned I'm not knowledgable enough on the subject to have a strong opinion. On a very cursory glance it looks like the peak schedule life capacity out of Tsawwassen is increased which is an obvious positive with consistently sold out sailings all summer and whenever it is a holiday.
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