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Post by Dane on Sept 19, 2019 16:58:59 GMT -8
I think, anecdotally entirely, they're doing better. When I see the boat there is healthy loads coming on and off. Certainly more than last year.
I suspect that because their season runs well out of peak tourist time these deals are to get locals onboard who are well priced out of the market. There's an even better deal being offered to locals that have sailed previously. At the current price point I can actually start using it for work. I still end up paying about $25 out of pocket but do not mind that at all.
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Post by Chris City on Jan 6, 2020 17:57:49 GMT -8
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Post by paddlehardercafe on Jan 6, 2020 18:09:43 GMT -8
Sad to see this happen to them, wonderful service. Just out priced themselves and missed the market they intended to get. I would say that boat is prime placed for the Nanaimo group to grab and get there service going as soon as with a boat for sale in local water. (Just a thought)
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Post by Dane on Jan 6, 2020 18:10:44 GMT -8
Shame, but, not a surprise.
They seemed to have a better 2019 than previous years given that the boat didn't break down and they kept the advertised schedule all season.
I suspect that other than lite loads, there was also heavy discounts for those who were actually on board.
Having used it a few times, I'll miss it.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 6, 2020 18:36:04 GMT -8
I would say that boat is prime placed for the Nanaimo group to grab and get there service going as soon as with a boat for sale in local water. (Just a thought) I doubt that Island Ferry Service LTD. will probably not buy her because they built they own vessels. But I am not shock that they giving up because they overprice and sailing time was not that competitive to the other travel modes.
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Post by paddlehardercafe on Jan 6, 2020 18:38:42 GMT -8
Shame, but, not a surprise. They seemed to have a better 2019 than previous years given that the boat didn't break down and they kept the advertised schedule all season. I suspect that other than lite loads, there was also heavy discounts for those who were actually on board. Having used it a few times, I'll miss it. Took it on a pay now, sail later, 180$ for 2 in royal class, was treated very well by staff. But only a dozen max on the upper deck. I saw the market, they didn't reach out to it well. The market they wanted were tightly held on the tour buses and companies that didn't want to play with them. The price was abit out of touch for the independent traveler but a treat for a local that wasn't in a hurry.
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Post by vancouverecho on Jan 6, 2020 19:43:56 GMT -8
Realistically, not surprised that V2V pulled out. I did not expect them to last as long as they did, and really felt they missed the mark in terms of schedule and pricing.
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Post by paddlehardercafe on Jan 6, 2020 20:27:12 GMT -8
Realistically, not surprised that V2V pulled out. I did not expect them to last as long as they did, and really felt they missed the mark in terms of schedule and pricing. They didn't get the marketed group they wanted as the companies were very stiff about it and the packaged deals with local hotels and tourism companies were limited. It's a dog eat dog world most people don't understand and unless you worked in it would see the service they had was good but not playing well with the big international and local dogs.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Jan 6, 2020 21:46:12 GMT -8
I wished them well, but I thought it was kind of a weird idea. I still think that the only sort of direct Vancouver to Victoria premium priced service than can work would be something that recalled the old CPR steamers, with an option to bring your car. I don't see that ever happening.
It was amusing, in a grim sort of way, to see the reference to 'double digit growth' in traffic from the previous year. When you're starting from such a meagre mark...
The Nanaimo to Vancouver service is still not imminent. I know the proposed operating model is different, but this news doesn't encourage optimism.
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 6, 2020 21:58:48 GMT -8
Sad, but not unexpected news. The latest in a troubled history of such ventures. The only exception is Clipper, but they are doing the Victoria - Seattle market and don't have big car/passenger ferries to compete with.
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Post by vancouverecho on Jan 7, 2020 21:07:55 GMT -8
Realistically, not surprised that V2V pulled out. I did not expect them to last as long as they did, and really felt they missed the mark in terms of schedule and pricing. They didn't get the marketed group they wanted as the companies were very stiff about it and the packaged deals with local hotels and tourism companies were limited. It's a dog eat dog world most people don't understand and unless you worked in it would see the service they had was good but not playing well with the big international and local dogs. Mostly because they had an awful schedule for tours, and the frequency of just one sailing a day and the transit time (3.5 hours) wasn't attractive. And coupled with the pricing, they just weren't competitive at all. For $100 bucks one way, they were up against both Harbour Air and Helijet in terms of ticket pricing. Both Harbour Air and Helijet fly between Vancouver and Victoria Harbour multiple times a day, and are cheaper and faster to boot. And they were also going to get the low end of the market eaten by BC Ferries; it's getting cheaper and more convenient to get to the Tsawwassen ferry terminal via transit or a variety of operators, so even if they tried to strip down to a more budget friendly service, they still could not compete.
They couldn't compete with neither BC Ferries (mainstream, budget friendly) nor Harbour Air (fast and convenient) so they were essentially in no man's land. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did; I would have thought they would have pulled out after the first year. Sad, but not unexpected news. The latest in a troubled history of such ventures. The only exception is Clipper, but they are doing the Victoria - Seattle market and don't have big car/passenger ferries to compete with. Prince of Whales also runs a Vancouver to Victoria route, but they do in context of both a whale watching tour, and a day trip to Victoria's Buchart Gardens, before returning back to Vancouver in the evening.
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Post by hullnumbers on Jan 7, 2020 22:00:54 GMT -8
Sad to hear V2V Vacations had to shut down. Well, there's the BC Transit and Translink or BC Ferries Connector Bus and the Swartz Bay- Tsawwassen route to connect us to the two cities. I was hoping to take a ride but not anymore.
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Post by paddlehardercafe on Jan 7, 2020 22:53:57 GMT -8
They didn't get the marketed group they wanted as the companies were very stiff about it and the packaged deals with local hotels and tourism companies were limited. It's a dog eat dog world most people don't understand and unless you worked in it would see the service they had was good but not playing well with the big international and local dogs. Mostly because they had an awful schedule for tours, and the frequency of just one sailing a day and the transit time (3.5 hours) wasn't attractive. And coupled with the pricing, they just weren't competitive at all. For $100 bucks one way, they were up against both Harbour Air and Helijet in terms of ticket pricing. Both Harbour Air and Helijet fly between Vancouver and Victoria Harbour multiple times a day, and are cheaper and faster to boot. And they were also going to get the low end of the market eaten by BC Ferries; it's getting cheaper and more convenient to get to the Tsawwassen ferry terminal via transit or a variety of operators, so even if they tried to strip down to a more budget friendly service, they still could not compete.
They couldn't compete with neither BC Ferries (mainstream, budget friendly) nor Harbour Air (fast and convenient) so they were essentially in no man's land. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did; I would have thought they would have pulled out after the first year. Sir, I think you have completely missed the point of their service, it was never trying to compete with regular commuting travelers from Vic to Van.
It was meant for international travelers, higher end as well families to enjoy a "cruise" between cities, sight seeing along the way with on board service. Key Market was Australia and the UK / Germany countries. Wasn't meant for in a hurry traveler or the budget back packer. They did screw up the day tripper to Victoria which they fixed in year two but it was also meant as a over night package with local hotels here, with day time activities like butchard gardens and other attractions built into its vacation programs.
I really wish people would stop bashing this company for trying something different, it wasn't ever meant to be a commuter downtown to downtown service.
They offered return trips on Harbour Air one way for something different and partnered with other tour operators.
Anyone thinking it was a waste vs BC Ferries, helijet, harbour air and BC transit, have missed the point of the service.
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Post by vancouverecho on Jan 8, 2020 12:30:28 GMT -8
Mostly because they had an awful schedule for tours, and the frequency of just one sailing a day and the transit time (3.5 hours) wasn't attractive. And coupled with the pricing, they just weren't competitive at all. For $100 bucks one way, they were up against both Harbour Air and Helijet in terms of ticket pricing. Both Harbour Air and Helijet fly between Vancouver and Victoria Harbour multiple times a day, and are cheaper and faster to boot. And they were also going to get the low end of the market eaten by BC Ferries; it's getting cheaper and more convenient to get to the Tsawwassen ferry terminal via transit or a variety of operators, so even if they tried to strip down to a more budget friendly service, they still could not compete.
They couldn't compete with neither BC Ferries (mainstream, budget friendly) nor Harbour Air (fast and convenient) so they were essentially in no man's land. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did; I would have thought they would have pulled out after the first year. Sir, I think you have completely missed the point of their service, it was never trying to compete with regular commuting travelers from Vic to Van.
It was meant for international travelers, higher end as well families to enjoy a "cruise" between cities, sight seeing along the way with on board service. Key Market was Australia and the UK / Germany countries. Wasn't meant for in a hurry traveler or the budget back packer. They did screw up the day tripper to Victoria which they fixed in year two but it was also meant as a over night package with local hotels here, with day time activities like butchard gardens and other attractions built into its vacation programs.
I really wish people would stop bashing this company for trying something different, it wasn't ever meant to be a commuter downtown to downtown service.
They offered return trips on Harbour Air one way for something different and partnered with other tour operators.
Anyone thinking it was a waste vs BC Ferries, helijet, harbour air and BC transit, have missed the point of the service.
They weren't even after the right market in that case, and had seriously mistimed their sailings for their market.
Look, the bulk of these high end tourists or travellers that would have been interested in such a trip were cruise ship passengers; an 8:00am departure from Vancouver was terribly timed for that customer base.
Cruise ships usually enter port at around 7:00am, and it will take roughly 2-3 hours for the ship to dock, the passengers to disembark and clear customs. At best, the earliest when a cruise ship passenger can even attempt at some sort of excursion trip is at 9:00am.
That however means that they get into Victoria at 12:30pm; really late in the day.
And their scheduled return to Victoria also made no sense; cruise ships usually depart from Vancouver at around 4-5pm; their summer return trip from Victoria was scheduled to return at 8:00pm. Even if they caught a Helijet or Harbour Air return to get back before then, they would realistically only have 2-3 hours to run around in Victoria.
So, realistically, the demographic they would have attracted was tourists already staying in Vancouver and were planing on overnighting in Victoria... not exactly a big demographic.
On top of that, their vessel was way oversized compared to what would have been their main competitor (Prince of Whales) is running; Prince of Whales are running a pair custom-built catamarans, soon to be joined by a third ship, with a passenger capacity of 96 people each.
The V2V Empress in V2V's configuration was a 242 passenger vessel; a much larger vessel. A larger vessel like the V2V Empress would have higher costs associated with running the vessel, and since the vessel was used and refurbished, it wasn't going to be as efficient as something custom built, like what Prince of Whales has. I believe the ships Prince of Whales runs have half the installed horsepower, and the ships are about 30% smaller than V2V's vessel.
And at least Prince of Whales has a unique angle to their route; they are offering the trip as part of a whale watching tour.
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Post by 1foot2ships on Jan 8, 2020 14:19:34 GMT -8
Sir, I think you have completely missed the point of their service, it was never trying to compete with regular commuting travelers from Vic to Van.
It was meant for international travelers, higher end as well families to enjoy a "cruise" between cities, sight seeing along the way with on board service. Key Market was Australia and the UK / Germany countries. Wasn't meant for in a hurry traveler or the budget back packer. They did screw up the day tripper to Victoria which they fixed in year two but it was also meant as a over night package with local hotels here, with day time activities like butchard gardens and other attractions built into its vacation programs.
I really wish people would stop bashing this company for trying something different, it wasn't ever meant to be a commuter downtown to downtown service.
They offered return trips on Harbour Air one way for something different and partnered with other tour operators.
Anyone thinking it was a waste vs BC Ferries, helijet, harbour air and BC transit, have missed the point of the service.
They weren't even after the right market in that case, and had seriously mistimed their sailings for their market.
Look, the bulk of these high end tourists or travellers that would have been interested in such a trip were cruise ship passengers; an 8:00am departure from Vancouver was terribly timed for that customer base.
Cruise ships usually enter port at around 7:00am, and it will take roughly 2-3 hours for the ship to dock, the passengers to disembark and clear customs. At best, the earliest when a cruise ship passenger can even attempt at some sort of excursion trip is at 9:00am.
That however means that they get into Victoria at 12:30pm; really late in the day.
And their scheduled return to Victoria also made no sense; cruise ships usually depart from Vancouver at around 4-5pm; their summer return trip from Victoria was scheduled to return at 8:00pm. Even if they caught a Helijet or Harbour Air return to get back before then, they would realistically only have 2-3 hours to run around in Victoria.
So, realistically, the demographic they would have attracted was tourists already staying in Vancouver and were planing on overnighting in Victoria... not exactly a big demographic.
On top of that, their vessel was way oversized compared to what would have been their main competitor (Prince of Whales) is running; Prince of Whales are running a pair custom-built catamarans, soon to be joined by a third ship, with a passenger capacity of 96 people each.
The V2V Empress in V2V's configuration was a 242 passenger vessel; a much larger vessel. A larger vessel like the V2V Empress would have higher costs associated with running the vessel, and since the vessel was used and refurbished, it wasn't going to be as efficient as something custom built, like what Prince of Whales has. I believe the ships Prince of Whales runs have half the installed horsepower, and the ships are about 30% smaller than V2V's vessel.
And at least Prince of Whales has a unique angle to their route; they are offering the trip as part of a whale watching tour.
paddlehardercafe: yes, everything you said about the 'business model' for riverside is exactly what they were trying to do, and you summed it up quite nicely for those who were comparing it against the wrong metrics, but sorry, vancouverecho has all the correct answers. im not deliberately trying to make fun of riverside but its sort of like being DQ for entering a comic strip into a writing contest.
selfishly, i would really enjoy using some kind of service harbour air/helijet > $$ HERE $$ > bc ferries but 'sigh'... this really sabotages the hopes for the next guy. in the whole sum of things, i fear something like this might be economically impossible. unlike the nanaimo run, geography is probably too big a natural obstacle for a victoria run.
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Post by paddlehardercafe on Jan 8, 2020 16:17:25 GMT -8
Vancouver echo, I assume you work/worked in the tourism industry from your vast knowledge of the system as pointed out again by you as the market they "were" going after. I met the Campbell family, they struggled to start, put a team together and worked hard on the market place in Vancouver and Victoria to create packages. Yes near the end they were promoting day trips, over night trips and alternate return travel for verity. I know they weren't trying to get day trips from arriving cruise ship passengers as a stop in Vancouver. Perhaps the ones ending a cruise with another day to kill before flying out. The market they wanted, as they heard was in need of a change from the bus - onto ferry, on the cattle cart deck and crowded passenger decks - were the high end tour groups from companies like Evergreen, Trafalgar and Scenic. They wanted to avoid the ferry ( cost and passengers complaints ) and V2V was marketing their groups of 50-75+ each at a time to enjoy their service. Some days between the companies there would be upwards of 4 buses on the ferry for their island tour before heading for Port Hardy and the inside passage or back to Vancouver to the Rockies tour. Some of those companies were getting on board with the idea, passengers wanted to see the island and nature but not with 1000 of other people, some of their passengers were independently taking the trip as the group were in transit to Victoria, other flew or stayed with the tour bus. Not cruise ship passengers, never heard them mention trying to sell that on board the ships, if you know, there would be a huge fee to sell that featured excursion and meet ship times.
I took the service as well, I saw there was poor loads, fuel isn't cheap, staff and food on board was great but not cheap, docking fees, rent, office staff and so on.
I will leave it at that, no need to continue, you seem bent on getting your point across as an expert in the field. In the end, it failed. Clipper reviews aren't the best either with a lower class of service but in a different market area altogether.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Jan 8, 2020 21:56:58 GMT -8
Vancouver echo, I assume you work/worked in the tourism industry from your vast knowledge of the system as pointed out again by you as the market they "were" going after. I met the Campbell family, they struggled to start, put a team together and worked hard on the market place in Vancouver and Victoria to create packages. Yes near the end they were promoting day trips, over night trips and alternate return travel for verity. I know they weren't trying to get day trips from arriving cruise ship passengers as a stop in Vancouver. Perhaps the ones ending a cruise with another day to kill before flying out. The market they wanted, as they heard was in need of a change from the bus - onto ferry, on the cattle cart deck and crowded passenger decks - were the high end tour groups from companies like Evergreen, Trafalgar and Scenic. They wanted to avoid the ferry ( cost and passengers complaints ) and V2V was marketing their groups of 50-75+ each at a time to enjoy their service. Some days between the companies there would be upwards of 4 buses on the ferry for their island tour before heading for Port Hardy and the inside passage or back to Vancouver to the Rockies tour. Some of those companies were getting on board with the idea, passengers wanted to see the island and nature but not with 1000 of other people, some of their passengers were independently taking the trip as the group were in transit to Victoria, other flew or stayed with the tour bus. Not cruise ship passengers, never heard them mention trying to sell that on board the ships, if you know, there would be a huge fee to sell that featured excursion and meet ship times. I took the service as well, I saw there was poor loads, fuel isn't cheap, staff and food on board was great but not cheap, docking fees, rent, office staff and so on. I will leave it at that, no need to continue, you seem bent on getting your point across as an expert in the field. In the end, it failed. Clipper reviews aren't the best either with a lower class of service but in a different market area altogether. Umm... who among us isn't keen on getting their point across? Bottom line, there have been at least three efforts at a Vancouver to Victoria service, using various sorts of speedy vessels. The lesson should be that it will never work, unless someone can perform the Herculean task of putting a grand old steamer type vessel on the route, carrying cars, to re-create the pre-1960s experience. Not going to happen. As someone who is fascinated by ships and willing to try new transportation options, V2V only held mild interest for me. Seemed like a 'neither fish nor fowl' type thing, and apparently, that's what the market eventually decided.
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grk
Chief Steward
Posts: 227
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Post by grk on Jan 9, 2020 11:30:57 GMT -8
What is needed is a passenger only fast ferry from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay taking the pressure off the Spirits. At times they can not handle the waiting foot passengers and vehicle traffic. Sea conditions would pose docking issues on the mainland side though!
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Post by Nickfro on Jan 9, 2020 11:53:58 GMT -8
In my opinion, V2V was never going to make this work. If they were after the tourist market, that's only 4 months of the year where they'd possibly see viable passenger volumes. This would only work if they had reasonable passenger numbers year-round. In the shoulder season, unsettled weather, fewer tourists and better commuter options (BCFS for cost, air travel for time) were definite weaknesses against V2V. Granted the seaplanes often get cancelled due to low visibility, but it would only benefit V2V in one direction since they had only one boat. Tough to make such a service succeed. I hope the boat finds a new home that provides a viable and fluid service.
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Post by Kahloke on Jan 9, 2020 12:02:16 GMT -8
What is needed is a passenger only fast ferry from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay taking the pressure off the Spirits. At times they can not handle the waiting foot passengers and vehicle traffic. Sea conditions would pose docking issues on the mainland side though! Ideally, the existing ferry/bus network would/could be beefed up. For the general travelling public, improved/faster land side connections and increased frequency on Route 1 seems like the way to go. Hourly sailings on Route 1, which they already do in the summer, plus faster BRT or maybe even light rail, options on the Tsawwassen and Swartz Bay sides would really help. At Swartz Bay, for example, having a BRT or LRT that gets you into downtown Victoria in 30 minutes instead of an hour, as the #70 currently does, would be a huge improvement. I think it will probably get there, but it's going to take time. V2V was an interesting venture, but for the purpose of moving people in the most efficient manner, ferry crossings should be between the shortest points possible/feasible, as it is now with Route 1, with quicker land-side infrastructure modes to connect into city centres.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 9, 2020 12:39:35 GMT -8
What is needed is a passenger only fast ferry from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay taking the pressure off the Spirits. At times they can not handle the waiting foot passengers and vehicle traffic. Sea conditions would pose docking issues on the mainland side though! Ideally, the existing ferry/bus network would/could be beefed up. For the general travelling public, improved/faster land side connections and increased frequency on Route 1 seems like the way to go. Hourly sailings on Route 1, which they already do in the summer, plus faster BRT or maybe even light rail, options on the Tsawwassen and Swartz Bay sides would really help. At Swartz Bay, for example, having a BRT or LRT that gets you into downtown Victoria in 30 minutes instead of an hour, as the #70 currently does, would be a huge improvement. I think it will probably get there, but it's going to take time. V2V was an interesting venture, but for the purpose of moving people in the most efficient manner, ferry crossings should be between the shortest points possible/feasible, as it is now with Route 1, with quicker land-side infrastructure modes to connect into city centres. I doubt that Provincial Government, Mayor Council (TransLink), Victoria Regional Transit Commission (BC Transit) would build BRT or LRT to ferry terminal due ferries coming hourly which doesn’t justify investing a lot money for so few people to benefit. The only thing that would be reasonable is reduce fare with increase service to connect to every sailing on BC Ferries Connector.
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Post by 1foot2ships on Jan 9, 2020 23:43:28 GMT -8
Ideally, the existing ferry/bus network would/could be beefed up. For the general travelling public, improved/faster land side connections and increased frequency on Route 1 seems like the way to go. Hourly sailings on Route 1, which they already do in the summer, plus faster BRT or maybe even light rail, options on the Tsawwassen and Swartz Bay sides would really help. At Swartz Bay, for example, having a BRT or LRT that gets you into downtown Victoria in 30 minutes instead of an hour, as the #70 currently does, would be a huge improvement. I think it will probably get there, but it's going to take time. V2V was an interesting venture, but for the purpose of moving people in the most efficient manner, ferry crossings should be between the shortest points possible/feasible, as it is now with Route 1, with quicker land-side infrastructure modes to connect into city centres. I doubt that Provincial Government, Mayor Council (TransLink), Victoria Regional Transit Commission (BC Transit) would build BRT or LRT to due ferries coming hourly which doesn’t justify investing a lot money for so few people to benefit. The only thing that would be reasonable is reduce fare with increase service to connect to every sailing on BC Ferries Connector.
sorry bluebusfan, but i completely agree with what kahloke said underlines, italics. but then again, what kahloke said makes too much sense and sensible plans never materialise until it becomes something we shoulda done yrs ago... i think the canada line should already be extended to TSW and a BRT to SWB would be great urban planning. on v2v: transportation can market sightseeing as an bonus, but sightseeing marketing itself as transportation will never fly (sail).
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Post by Dane on Jan 10, 2020 0:31:17 GMT -8
Bluebus is definitely right in Canada Line. Surge crowds don't justify giant transit systems. The 620 is actually a low ridership route, it just has a lot of riders in short bursts. In the current iteration of South Delta SkyTrain wont happen with current planning realities.
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Post by vancouverecho on Jan 10, 2020 8:36:37 GMT -8
The big issue is that the Downtown Vancouver to Victoria route is just far too long in terms of distance to be viable against BC Ferries' Route 1. Last time I've checked, but the route V2V was using to get from Vancouver to Victoria is roughly 140km; BC Ferries Route 1 is listed as being just under 45km; 1/3 the distance.
That means automatically, assuming travelling the same speed, BC Ferries was going to have a massive advantage in trip time and distance. That is why everyone that has tried this route in recent times were trying to do it with a high speed ferry compared to a more conventional ferry.
The problem becomes that if you wanted to make up the travel time to be competitive, you are going to need raw speed, which means you are going to burn far more fuel in a comparability sized vessel. Even then, you can't run at high speed all the time due to traffic and local conditions, so unless you can really rocket through the high speed sections, your schedule was never going to compete.
And BC Ferries would have a yet another advantage in that they run far bigger ships, which have a much lower per person trip cost. There is a reason why BC Ferries has run the Vancouver to Victoria route via Tsawwassen; being out there means a far shorter distance, and taking transit, or driving to Tsawwassen really doesn't add too much in terms of total travel time from Downtown Vancouver in the grand scheme of things.
So, unless there is some miracle of technology that allows a ferry to travel from Downtown Vancouver to Downtown Victoria under 90 minutes, while being cost competitive to a float plane, everyone trying this route is going to fail down the line.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jan 10, 2020 19:04:15 GMT -8
I doubt that Provincial Government, Mayor Council (TransLink), Victoria Regional Transit Commission (BC Transit) would build BRT or LRT to due ferries coming hourly which doesn’t justify investing a lot money for so few people to benefit. The only thing that would be reasonable is reduce fare with increase service to connect to every sailing on BC Ferries Connector.
sorry bluebusfan, but i completely agree with what kahloke said underlines, italics. but then again, what kahloke said makes too much sense and sensible plans never materialise until it becomes something we shoulda done yrs ago... i think the canada line should already be extended to TSW and a BRT to SWB would be great urban planning. on v2v: transportation can market sightseeing as an bonus, but sightseeing marketing itself as transportation will never fly (sail). They explain why? I am all for public transit but rapid transit should be built where it is justified to but not ferry terminal since there bust of ridership at one stop compared to other parts of route.
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