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Post by markkarj on Jul 25, 2019 8:56:34 GMT -8
IF (and I fully realize that's a big if) BC Ferries wanted to have larger vehicle capacity, how would they do it?
Could they take the upper vehicle deck and make it a full two levels high with platforms?
Could they do a ship with a broader beam to load a third lane of vehicles both on the upper and lower vehicle decks?
I know some ships like the Ulysses and the Stena ships have all sorts of nooks and crannies for placing vehicles. And I do appreciate that the eventual trend is more walk-ons, fewer drive-ons.
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Post by futureferrydriver on Jul 25, 2019 10:05:10 GMT -8
IF (and I fully realize that's a big if) BC Ferries wanted to have larger vehicle capacity, how would they do it? Could they take the upper vehicle deck and make it a full two levels high with platforms? Could they do a ship with a broader beam to load a third lane of vehicles both on the upper and lower vehicle decks? I know some ships like the Ulysses and the Stena ships have all sorts of nooks and crannies for placing vehicles. And I do appreciate that the eventual trend is more walk-ons, fewer drive-ons. I would imagine a combination of longer and wider. Internal ramps just don't work very well in BC (look at the original Spirits...) so it seems very unlikely that a 3rd car deck would ever be added. In other parts of the world where the ferry trips are 8+ hours the internal ramps make sense and its not a big deal if it takes an hour to load the ship full of cars, but when the trip is only an hour and a half you don't want to double that with a lengthly loading procedure. Speaking of longer and wider I seriously wonder how much bigger BCF could go (hypothetically if they wanted the biggest ship possible). They might be able to get another lane or two of width and still fit into the existing berths, but going too much wider would necessitate replacing a whole lot of terminal infrastructure. Adding length is probably the easiest. I think (someone chime in if you can think of any other reasons) the only real limitation in length is handling (ie. they have to be able to make it through Active Pass, and berth quickly) and stability (longer would have to be wider for stability, but wider is limited).
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Post by vancouverecho on Jul 26, 2019 1:15:50 GMT -8
Ditto, there's also the issue that a 500+ capacity ferry would ruin the hourly schedule of route 1. It's already a squeeze to get a full spirit turned around in 25 minutes. Maybe it's just my OCDness, but there's something hugely satisfying and simple about the ferry leaving every hour (or two) on the hour. Thank You for mentioning that. I didn't really think about how long it would take to unload and then load 500 cars again in less than 25 minutes because that would cause some ferry delays and even then, who knows how busy the run will be in 20 years, it may not be as busy and one way we could get a lot of these car passengers as walk on passengers is by increasing transit service at both Tsawwassen and Swartz Bay like a Canada Line Extention down to Tsawwassen and a few more bus routes to Tsawwassen and more bus service to Swartz Bay and I could see the problem with having a ferry for this big of a route having a sailing at a complete random time instead of on the exact hour. One of the issues with the Spirit's is that they are single ended; they have to swing their bows around so they are facing the right way at one end, while at the other end, they have to back in stern first. That eats up time compared to the Coastal's, which are double ended.
Another advantage of the Coastal's is that they are also slightly faster, which allows them to make up time enroute over the day if there is a delay. If a Spirit gets delayed, the rest of the schedule for a Spirit gets screwed over as a result for the entire day.
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Post by futureferrydriver on Jul 26, 2019 8:11:07 GMT -8
Thank You for mentioning that. I didn't really think about how long it would take to unload and then load 500 cars again in less than 25 minutes because that would cause some ferry delays and even then, who knows how busy the run will be in 20 years, it may not be as busy and one way we could get a lot of these car passengers as walk on passengers is by increasing transit service at both Tsawwassen and Swartz Bay like a Canada Line Extention down to Tsawwassen and a few more bus routes to Tsawwassen and more bus service to Swartz Bay and I could see the problem with having a ferry for this big of a route having a sailing at a complete random time instead of on the exact hour. One of the issues with the Spirit's is that they are single ended; they have to swing their bows around so they are facing the right way at one end, while at the other end, they have to back in stern first. That eats up time compared to the Coastal's, which are double ended.
Another advantage of the Coastal's is that they are also slightly faster, which allows them to make up time enroute over the day if there is a delay. If a Spirit gets delayed, the rest of the schedule for a Spirit gets screwed over as a result for the entire day.
Definitely a good point. Especially if they want to be able to sub these newer ships in for use of route 2,3 and 30. I hope that for future double enders they deal with the noise problems affecting the Coastals. As it stands the Spirits are the only ships using berth 1 at SWB (Coastals prop is too loud = unhappy neighbours). It would be a shame if the new ships are stuck using berth 2 when operationally berth 1 is unquestionably the superior berth.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jul 26, 2019 15:02:41 GMT -8
One of the issues with the Spirit's is that they are single ended; they have to swing their bows around so they are facing the right way at one end, while at the other end, they have to back in stern first. That eats up time compared to the Coastal's, which are double ended.
Another advantage of the Coastal's is that they are also slightly faster, which allows them to make up time enroute over the day if there is a delay. If a Spirit gets delayed, the rest of the schedule for a Spirit gets screwed over as a result for the entire day.
Definitely a good point. Especially if they want to be able to sub these newer ships in for use of route 2,3 and 30. I hope that for future double enders they deal with the noise problems affecting the Coastals. As it stands the Spirits are the only ships using berth 1 at SWB (Coastals prop is too loud = unhappy neighbours). It would be a shame if the new ships are stuck using berth 2 when operationally berth 1 is unquestionably the superior berth. Maybe berth 2 is easier for double ended because there doesn’t seems to be easier to change routing for inbound sailing to Swartz Bay for use berth 1 Coastal Class vessels.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 26, 2019 15:25:37 GMT -8
Maybe berth 2 is easier for double ended because there doesn’t seems to be easier to change routing for inbound sailing to Swartz Bay for use berth 1 Coastal Class vessels. Good point. I get what you're saying. I had to think through the various approach scenarios of a single-ended ship and a double-ended ship for each berth.
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Post by futureferrydriver on Jul 28, 2019 19:13:02 GMT -8
Definitely a good point. Especially if they want to be able to sub these newer ships in for use of route 2,3 and 30. I hope that for future double enders they deal with the noise problems affecting the Coastals. As it stands the Spirits are the only ships using berth 1 at SWB (Coastals prop is too loud = unhappy neighbours). It would be a shame if the new ships are stuck using berth 2 when operationally berth 1 is unquestionably the superior berth. Maybe berth 2 is easier for double ended because there doesn’t seems to be easier to change routing for inbound sailing to Swartz Bay for use berth 1 Coastal Class vessels. The could just approach by the way the Spirits normally depart! Its roughly the same distance I think.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jul 28, 2019 20:21:33 GMT -8
Maybe berth 2 is easier for double ended because there doesn’t seems to be easier to change routing for inbound sailing to Swartz Bay for use berth 1 Coastal Class vessels. The could just approach by the way the Spirits normally depart! Its roughly the same distance I think. But wouldn’t require approval from Coast Guard and Transport Canada? But then again the Queen of New Westminster has unique approach for berth 2 while it goes through the islands.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 9, 2019 18:05:48 GMT -8
BC Ferries now knows what passenger want on these new major vessels. I hope BC Ferries use this for better design vessels with much better use of interior and better space for pets with their owners.
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Post by timmyc on Aug 10, 2019 16:08:21 GMT -8
They must've missed my suggestion that the new ships include provisions for self-defence armament in the event of another Pacific war.
(I kid, but firmly have the CPR Empresses in mind)
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 10, 2019 16:40:47 GMT -8
They must've missed my suggestion that the new ships include provisions for self-defence armament in the event of another Pacific war. (I kid, but firmly have the CPR Empresses in mind) Why? That seems like waste of money.
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Post by timmyc on Aug 10, 2019 17:22:09 GMT -8
It's a snide comment on the trend these days to ask the public for input about things and then pretending the obvious answers (e.g. quieter and more environmentally friendly) weren't already planned on being incorporated.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,150
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Post by Neil on Aug 10, 2019 19:20:55 GMT -8
They must've missed my suggestion that the new ships include provisions for self-defence armament in the event of another Pacific war. (I kid, but firmly have the CPR Empresses in mind) Why? That seems like waste of money. With Trump occupying the Oval Office, you never know if the Americans are going to continue to allow route one vessels to cut across 'their' waters. We should be prepared. The Spirit of British Columbia with gunners trained on any encroaching American enforcement could be a real tourist attraction. The Active Pass transit gets kind of old.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 10, 2019 20:19:44 GMT -8
Why? That seems like waste of money. With Trump occupying the Oval Office, you never know if the Americans are going to continue to allow route one vessels to cut across 'their' waters. We should be prepared. The Spirit of British Columbia with gunners trained on any encroaching American enforcement could be a real tourist attraction. The Active Pass transit gets kind of old. When is Vancouver Island going to join the 21st Century and do some tectonic-shifts to move the Island a few KM north, so that the ferry route no longer has to cross foreign waters?
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 15, 2019 20:13:45 GMT -8
Will all five of these vessels have the same amenities on board for all routes that these vessels could see service on?
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Post by Geoff on Aug 16, 2019 0:08:17 GMT -8
Will all five of these vessels have the same amenities on board for all routes that these vessels could see service on? I am having a feeling that they probably will but some of them are probably going to see service on Route 1 and one of them is guaranteed to see service on that route so they might put the Pacific Buffet onto one of them but I honestly think it should just be added to all vessels because Route 2 is getting really busy too so I think the Pacific Buffet should be added to Route 2. For Route maybe for that route they could have the Pacific Buffet closed because it usually isn't that crowded on that route so it wouldn't really be used that much.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 17, 2019 9:24:02 GMT -8
I am having a feeling that they probably will but some of them are probably going to see service on Route 1 and one of them is guaranteed to see service on that route so they might put the Pacific Buffet onto one of them but I honestly think it should just be added to all vessels because Route 2 is getting really busy too so I think the Pacific Buffet should be added to Route 2. For Route maybe for that route they could have the Pacific Buffet closed because it usually isn't that crowded on that route so it wouldn't really be used that much. Perhaps we should imagine a future where today's amenities - such as the Pacific Buffet - aren't guaranteed to be included on the next set of ferries, and instead the company takes the time to determine the best choices for customers on these vessels. Saying - well they'll have the buffet because they'll probably operate on route 1 and route 1 has always had a buffet and always will need to have a buffet is not the right approach.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 17, 2019 19:49:59 GMT -8
I am having a feeling that they probably will but some of them are probably going to see service on Route 1 and one of them is guaranteed to see service on that route so they might put the Pacific Buffet onto one of them but I honestly think it should just be added to all vessels because Route 2 is getting really busy too so I think the Pacific Buffet should be added to Route 2. For Route maybe for that route they could have the Pacific Buffet closed because it usually isn't that crowded on that route so it wouldn't really be used that much. Perhaps we should imagine a future where today's amenities - such as the Pacific Buffet - aren't guaranteed to be included on the next set of ferries, and instead the company takes the time to determine the best choices for customers on these vessels. Saying - well they'll have the buffet because they'll probably operate on route 1 and route 1 has always had a buffet and always will need to have a buffet is not the right approach. True but I don’t see BC Ferries putting in three areas where person could easily get same light food, salads on ferry on these vessels. I could see BC Ferries playing around with fine dining room or buffet on these vessels while person could get different food. The only amenities that could played with is pet area to make bigger and nice, kids area, video arcade area becoming a virtual reality area and turning the Coastal Cafe Express into Sitka Coffee Place. If BC Ferries decides replace some amenities I think Seawest Lounge should be first one replace, with seating going to other places of vessels and introduce an adult area of vessels which is free, Coastal Cafe Express with Sitka Coffee Place taking its place.
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Post by dofd on Aug 25, 2019 23:52:37 GMT -8
As someone who ran to get the (never booked) staterooms on the Spirit class, I would hit the Buffet for some food then take it back to my room. (You show the room key = power) Paper plates come out and once in a blue moon, can I take that up to your room. Happen twice on 50 sailings.
Today I use the Seawest ever trip. Love it.
When I lived in Seattle, I would take the ferry 3 to 4 times a week. Read the NYT over in the morning and would have a beer with someone on the trip home. (I lived at HarbourSteps, by the art gallery. (Pull out of |Washington Mutual before the, well you know)
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Sept 23, 2019 19:39:05 GMT -8
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Post by Charles on Sept 23, 2019 20:31:05 GMT -8
Hybrid, not electric, I don’t think we have advanced enough technology for a vessel that size to be electric only.
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Post by futureferrydriver on Sept 24, 2019 7:52:27 GMT -8
I find the following quote from Mark Collins to be quite saddening: “Our goal is that you’ll have to read the name on the ship to know what ship you’re on, that is how identical they will be. “Nobody knows what plane you get on, you just know its another 737,” he said. I realize they've been talking about standardization for years and years and it will probably never actually come to this in my lifetime, but its discouraging to hear that this is the goal. I've always liked the little quirks that make each ship unique.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 24, 2019 8:26:45 GMT -8
I find the following quote from Mark Collins to be quite saddening: “Our goal is that you’ll have to read the name on the ship to know what ship you’re on, that is how identical they will be. “Nobody knows what plane you get on, you just know its another 737,” he said. I realize they've been talking about standardization for years and years and it will probably never actually come to this in my lifetime, but its discouraging to hear that this is the goal. I've always liked the little quirks that make each ship unique. BC Ferry Services has been at this 'standardization' game since 2003. They have not made a lot of progress and I don't expect much to change going forward. There are four boats serving the North Coast right now. Each one is dramatically different from the others. Going to the main southern routes, the Spirits will be around for some time to come, so will the Coastals. I expect the new vessels replacing the C class, plus the last V, to be much different than the Coastals, so that means that there will still be three classes of vessels on the main routes. In 1995 there were three classes of vessels on those routes. As they say, the more the world changes the more it stays the same ...
Standardization also kind of flies in the face of the varying needs of different routes. For instance, route 1 needs vessels with greater passenger capacity as compared to the other main routes.
Then there is the unknowns of what is coming in the future. Twenty years from now will we still be so dependant on private vehicles to get from place to place? Large ferries designed to carry big payloads of cars just might not be that useful.
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Post by compdude787 on Sept 24, 2019 9:56:42 GMT -8
One cannot help to think that WSF's fleet is much easier to standardize than BC Ferries' fleet is, considering that they can use 144 car ferries on all but three routes. Even though WSF still has some variety in their fleet (though not as much as BC Ferries), it's ironic how we never hear about WSF's management talking about fleet standardization, even though that is going to happen in the next 15 years as they build a lot of 144-car ferries.
As for BC Ferries, I really agree with others who say that they will always have three closes of ferries on their major routes.
Also, on another note, it's not surprising that the LNG thing has turned out just to be a passing fad, with BC Ferries moving towards hybrid vessels.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Sept 24, 2019 12:43:04 GMT -8
Also, on another note, it's not surprising that the LNG thing has turned out just to be a passing fad, with BC Ferries moving towards hybrid vessels. Last I heard the new vessels are destined to be LNG and electric hybrid. With new emissions regs, in order to operate in the North American Emissions Control Area, a vessel will have to either burn LNG or use expensive exhaust scrubbers to achieve the required emissions profile. LNG will be and was always intended as a bridge technology until battery and charging tech is capable of taking the loads of continuous propulsion. The power grid needs extensive upgrading to be able to power the ferries.
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