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Post by Kahloke on Dec 15, 2017 7:13:51 GMT -8
Not sure exactly where to put this, but I like this graphic on Page 29 of the PDF that yvr posted in the Northern Sea Wolf thread. It shows the retirement schedule of ferries up through 2031. I am curious, as I am sure most of you are, about what kind of vessel(s) will replace the New West and the C's. The rest of that PDF was quite interesting to see. Thank you, yvr, for posting it. Here's a link to that thread: ferriesbc.proboards.com/thread/9315/northern-sea-wolf-routes-coast?page=11&scrollTo=189315
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 15, 2017 10:12:15 GMT -8
A new thread for the next, yet to be announced, round of BC Ferries vessel replacements.
The recent chart (presented at a 2017 ferry operators conference) lists the years 2022-2024 as the time to replace: - Queen of New Westminster - Queens of Cowichan & Coquitlam - Queen of Alberni
That's just 4 years away.
So this thread can be used for speculation and then reaction as newbuild process details eventually get announced.
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Post by jwjsamster on Dec 15, 2017 10:26:50 GMT -8
I was under the impression that it would simply be more coastal class ferries, BC ferries do own the plans to them and maybe apart from some minor modifications for issues they may have noticed over their decade of service I don't see why they would need a totally new design. However, we could potentially see another shipyard building them? Maybe in Canada? I know Davie shipyard in Quebec City recently had to lay off a bunch of workers and that west coast shipyards are caught up for the next few years.
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ProudCanuck
Chief Steward
Champ Car - Gone, but not forgotten!
Posts: 242
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Post by ProudCanuck on Dec 15, 2017 11:51:46 GMT -8
Not sure exactly where to put this, but I like this graphic on Page 29 of the PDF that yvr posted in the Northern Sea Wolf thread. It shows the retirement schedule of ferries up through 2031. I am curious, as I am sure most of you are, about what kind of vessel(s) will replace the New West and the C's. I find it interesting that an internal BC Ferries document shows the Queen of New Westminster as a C-Class. As well that all of the C-Class vessels are shown with the outline of the Queen of Alberni. LOL
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Post by Dane on Dec 15, 2017 16:18:23 GMT -8
BC Ferries has been musing for about a year now that the C-Class assignment to Route 3 will turn into two 200-ish AEQ vessels. The Salish class in their general arrangement would be a suitable design type it seems, albeit needing to be lengthened with passenger cabin space enlarged. I cannot imagine a need for crew cabins on a Route 3 vessel so you could buy space right there.
Where I was going with that; I think that we could see two vessel designs purchased to replace the QoNW and older-C's. Moreover if volume on major routes stays where it is I think there's a genuine case to be made for the addition of an extra major vessel. Consequently I would not be surprised to see five or six ships; 2 200-AEQ and 3 or 4 350-AEQ.
It has been interesting times for traffic increases and the response to capacity management will be interesting. Complex fare pricing, in my opinion, isn't going to be the saviour many seem to expect.
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 15, 2017 21:34:03 GMT -8
I was under the impression that it would simply be more coastal class ferries, BC ferries do own the plans to them and maybe apart from some minor modifications for issues they may have noticed over their decade of service I don't see why they would need a totally new design. However, we could potentially see another shipyard building them? Maybe in Canada? I know Davie shipyard in Quebec City recently had to lay off a bunch of workers and that west coast shipyards are caught up for the next few years. They could do two 'Coastals' dedicated to route 30 that omit deck 5 as that deck seems to be very much unneeded on that route.
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Post by arrrrmatey on Dec 16, 2017 9:50:39 GMT -8
I've given this issue a lot of thought and would like to add my musings about what I think should/could be done for major vessel replacements. First, lets talk about the capacity and routes served. In the near future, the QoNW, Alberni, Coquitlam and Cowichan will need replacing. These should all be replaced with vessels of similar capacity, ~350 AEQ, same with the eventual replacement of the Surrey and Oak Bay. So we're looking at 6 to 7 new major vessels. - Route 30 will need a vessel similar to the Coastal class in order to accommodate commercial traffic, the other routes less so.
- Route 3 could and will likely be serviced by either 2 smaller vessels (~200 to 250 AEQ). Another possibility is 1 large and one smaller vessel (a ~350 AEQ and a ~100 to 175 AEQ). This could be a new design (for the ~200's) or a C/Coastal-class and perhaps another Salish class to use at the #2 vessel if going with the two different sizes. This would free up the Surrey to replace the Cowichan as the Departure Bay-based vessel (or replace the Coquitlam as the spare vessel), until her retirement.
Second, lets talk design. The Coastal class, C class and Salish class all have features that could inspire a new major vessel design, from both technical and operational viewpoints. Highlights: - Coastal class have very spacious and efficient vehicle decks (the extra-high upper deck is also a bonus), as well as ample passenger space.
- Coastal class have the most commercial space
- C class are (to the best of my knowledge, can anyone confirm?) about 20% more fuel efficient than the Coastal class for the same max AEQ capacity (cars that is, not considering the higher commercial capacity of the Coastals for this statement)
- Salish class may prove to be a more efficient (for fuel and cost) design, depending on how well the LNG systems work. I would like to have more discussion on this in the future...
- It may be worth noting that the Coastal class passenger space is wasted on Route 30 (even in the summer, I believe), whereas trading fuel efficiency for commercial space on routes 3 and 2 by using coastal class there is probably not worthwhile.
- The C class take ~40 minutes to turn around at the terminal, likely due to loading ~2/3 of their vehicles through the lower car deck, whereas other major vessels are given ~25 minutes (even the spirits, correct?)
Here is what I propose: Build 2 new "Coastal-Lite" class for route 30. This will retire the Alberni, and move the Inspiration to Route 1 to retire the QoNW. - Same overall layout and capacity as the current Coastals, though update any design with new technology/science (any ideas? better hull designs/coatings?)
- Use LNG dual fuel engines and potentially include hybrid-electric
- Remove one of the passenger decks to save on initial cost, HVAC costs, cleaning/maintenance costs, and gross tonnage (to hopefully improve fuel efficiency)
- Some semblance of fleet standardization can be maintained. However, I think that the potential operating cost savings dictates that new technology and/or route-specific features be incorporated.
- The bridge could be moved up one deck (thereby being similar to the Surrey/Oak Bay)
Build either 1 additional Coastal class and 1 additional Salish class (or similar design) for route 3 OR 2 new mid-sized ~200 to 250 AEQ. - Using a Coastal/Salish combo will help maintain fleet standardization. However, vessel speed (~15 knots for the Salish compared to the expected ~20 knots for that route) becomes an issue for scheduling. It is possible, though, that this route could be increased to ~50 minutes transit time and all vessels could slow down. This would save on fuel costs.
- Use fully electric propulsion (battery powered), with diesel backup.
- Using 2 smaller vessels could allow for more frequent service for the entire day (1 large and 1 small vessel would likely only use the #2 vessel for one shift in the off-season)
- The Surrey could then replace the Cowichan from Route 2 until she is retired, and there would be no need for 2 C's on route 3 in the summer.
Build 2-3 more Coastal class, to replace the Coquitlam and eventually the Oak Bay/Surrey. - Use LNG dual fuel engines and potentially include hybrid-electric. I think that something needs to be done about the fuel efficiency issue.
- Similar overall design to existing Coastals. Again, incorporate new technology.
- It may be worth reducing the capacity and therefore overall size to improve cost-efficiency in the off-season. I don't think that lower deck vehicle ramps would be a great idea. The spirits have them and don't use them.
Also, any thoughts on what will replace the Bowen/PRQ/Mayne Queens? The new minor class seem too small, and the Salish class seem too large. I don't recall having seen anything about this so far.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 16, 2017 10:23:47 GMT -8
Also, any thoughts on what will replace the Bowen/PRQ/Mayne Queens? The new minor class seem too small, and the Salish class seem too large. I don't recall having seen anything about this so far. Shuttle Class Thread Here
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Post by markkarj on Dec 16, 2017 10:39:17 GMT -8
I do remember a chart of BC Ferries looking to basically get down to five classes of ships with commonality of machinery. I guess the questions become 1) just how locked in to that approach is the corporation, 2) what kind of variations are they prepared to consider.
I remember reading Gary Bannerman's book in which one of the first engineering superintendents wondering just who had put together the fleet (as there were three engine types between the first six B-ish class ships as just one example).
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Post by compdude787 on Dec 16, 2017 22:08:20 GMT -8
So, that table is a bit unclear on what year the Bowen Queen and Powell River Queen are going to be replaced. Is it going to be 2020 or 2021? I first thought that the 2020 on that timeline should have said 2019, meaning that the North Island Princess and the Howe Sound Queen would be retired that year, but BC Ferries says on their website here that the two 44-car Minor class vessels that would allow for those two ferries' retirements would enter service in 2020, meaning there's no way that these two vessels will be retired before 2020. Unless, of course, the two new 44-car minor vessels will be put in service before then... Also, when is the Kahloke gonna be retired? They seem to have missed that one on their timeline, even though it's about as old as the Klitsa, which appears to be slated for retirement in 2030.
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Post by mybidness459 on Dec 17, 2017 12:28:22 GMT -8
I was under the impression that it would simply be more coastal class ferries, BC ferries do own the plans to them and maybe apart from some minor modifications for issues they may have noticed over their decade of service I don't see why they would need a totally new design. However, we could potentially see another shipyard building them? Maybe in Canada? I know Davie shipyard in Quebec City recently had to lay off a bunch of workers and that west coast shipyards are caught up for the next few years. They could do two 'Coastals' dedicated to route 30 that omit deck 5 as that deck seems to be very much unneeded on that route. So if you omit deck 5 where would the wheelhouses be located? You would have to locate them on the sun deck above the main passenger deck like on the current C class ships in order to allow space for lounges and the cafeteria.
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transit
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by transit on Jan 12, 2018 5:00:41 GMT -8
www.j-gran.no/en/sale---purchase/passenger-vessels/boats/fanafjord/This 10-year-old LNG high speed ferry is for sale in Norway. She's in very good shape, highly maneuverable with 4 Schottel azimuth thrusters and capable of cruising at 22-23 knots. Could she be of interest for BC Ferries, or is she too narrow for your docks at 19 meters breadth?
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Post by Kahloke on Jan 12, 2018 7:20:45 GMT -8
www.j-gran.no/en/sale---purchase/passenger-vessels/boats/fanafjord/This 10-year-old LNG high speed ferry is for sale in Norway. She's in very good shape, highly maneuverable with 4 Schottel azimuth thrusters and capable of cruising at 22-23 knots. Could she be of interest for BC Ferries, or is she too narrow for your docks at 19 meters breadth? I moved the above post into this thread. That vessel is very similar to the new Polish boats BC Ferries has just built, albeit a little bit bigger. The 212 auto number would likely be reduced given BC Ferries new 6m standard for vehicle sizing. I don't see BCF buying this ship. The timing isn't right for acquiring a vessel of this size, but I could see something of a similar design and size to eventually replace the Route 3 vessels.
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Post by Starsteward on Jan 13, 2018 14:35:10 GMT -8
www.j-gran.no/en/sale---purchase/passenger-vessels/boats/fanafjord/This 10-year-old LNG high speed ferry is for sale in Norway. She's in very good shape, highly maneuverable with 4 Schottel azimuth thrusters and capable of cruising at 22-23 knots. Could she be of interest for BC Ferries, or is she too narrow for your docks at 19 meters breadth? I moved the above post into this thread. That vessel is very similar to the new Polish boats BC Ferries has just built, albeit a little bit bigger. The 212 auto number would likely be reduced given BC Ferries new 6m standard for vehicle sizing. I don't see BCF buying this ship. The timing isn't right for acquiring a vessel of this size, but I could see something of a similar design and size to eventually replace the Route 3 vessels. I'm a bit confused as to the actual date that this vessel might be available, either 2018 or 2019? Either way, given that we still have the "SOVI" MLU to do and other drydockings and minor refits to do, sending a delegation over to Norway to have a look-see would be appropriate. The age of the vessel isn't a problem and knowing the level of upkeep of Norwegian vessels, BCFS could see what condition a 10 year old LNG ferry looks like. This vessel might be a good reference for what we might expect down the road from the vessels we are upgrading and the new-builds we have on the way.
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Post by Dane on Jan 13, 2018 15:00:07 GMT -8
"High speed" is a bit misleading there... Perhaps if it is a steal this could be the remediation for Route 30 peak season since its 'high speed' matches the route's approximate service speed. I cannot imagine BC Ferries buying this in reality, but always fun to look!
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Post by Starsteward on Jan 13, 2018 18:10:17 GMT -8
"High speed" is a bit misleading there... Perhaps if it is a steal this could be the remediation for Route 30 peak season since its 'high speed' matches the route's approximate service speed. I cannot imagine BC Ferries buying this in reality, but always fun to look! I've been thinking a bit more about this since my previous posting. I agree the 'high speed' aspect may or may not be totally relevant, however: If I were BC Ferries, I would be totally upfront with the Norwegian sellers as to my intentions, that be: a serious 'tire-kicking' of this vessel for the following reasons. BCFS is about to have two large vessels and three intermediate vessels operating with LNG, as well as three new-builds that will employ the same technology. Doing a very detailed inspection of the 10 year old Norwegian ferry may be a great opportunity to see what some of our vessels may look like several years after beginning service. Inspection of the entire propulsion and related systems. Hull, and deck integrity. Examination/comparison of differences between expected and delivered levels of system reliability etc. In other words, this 10 year-old vessel might just be one of the best opportunities to 'fore-see' into the future. If BCFS was suitably impressed with this vessel and could negotiate a very favourable price, it wouldn't hurt to get the jump on adding newer vessels to the BCFS fleet.
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transit
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by transit on Jan 15, 2018 14:52:04 GMT -8
I realise BC Ferries operate vessels that run at 20 knots or so, so the term "high-speed" might be a bit misleading, yes. Most of our ferries run at 12-14 knots under normal conditions, so to us it is certainly a high-speed ferry.
However, I dare to claim that this class of ferries are perhaps the most efficiently run vessels in the world. They dock swiftly, unload and load in 5-6 minutes and off they go again. I witnessed this process myself a few years ago and was flabbergasted to see the swiftness of it all. Of course, this has also to do with the terminal marshalling areas that have been tailor-made for the operation of these ferries. Apart from that, they fit to the rest of the Norwegian ferry system. Maybe a conversion to BC docks would be too difficult or not worth the money.
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Post by markkarj on Feb 19, 2018 6:17:46 GMT -8
A couple of questions:
1) I know BC Ferries was aiming for a much greater degree of commonality. With the Coastals in place for the past ten years, would any new versions of those ships contemplate major changes to the diesel-electric propulsion systems they have?
2) Also along that line, with the conversion of the Spirits to dual fuel, would new Coastals go that way as well? I understand the Coastals burn much more fuel than the Cs, although the Coastals are much heavier ships.
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Post by Dane on May 21, 2018 15:28:01 GMT -8
Neil found a forecast in some FAC pages on the BC Ferries website for vessel replacement. It's somewhat unclear without benefit of the presentation, however a couple gems to pull out:
- no fundemental change to Rtes 2 & 3 seems to be included. That is to say three vessels for 2, and two vessels for 3.
- a 'major number 7' is included. With five C's and the embarrassing Queen of New Westminster that's six replacements. Absent from what I can find is the deployment for new major #2
- Renaissance to Rte 30 for Alberni.
- CCel to Rte 2. Hello buffet.
- that 'missing vessel' is obviously just open for guessing... But maybe augmentation for Rte 1 & 30??
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Post by Dane on May 21, 2018 15:29:26 GMT -8
I should add how little credit I give these documents until money starts rolling. But interesting to see where BCFS sees itself going.
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 21, 2018 16:08:54 GMT -8
I should add how little credit I give these documents until money starts rolling. But interesting to see where BCFS sees itself going. I keep an eye on the Ferry Commissioner web-page, as the first "official" step of getting a new-build plan approved.
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Post by futureferrydriver on Jul 4, 2018 11:55:40 GMT -8
It looks like the ball is starting to roll on the C-Class replacement project, with a request for proposals being put out yesterday. vancouversun.com/news/local-news/b-c-ferries-plans-new-wave-of-five-big-replacement-shipsOne thing that hugely bothers me about this article is the whiny nature of local shipyards (in this case Allied Shipyards is specifically mentioned), and the general public wanting these ships to be built here. All of this despite the fact that Chuck Ko (head of Allied) admits their shipyards are not large enough to handle ships of this size, and that larger shipyards, such as Seaspan Vancouver, are too busy with federal contracts to take on additional projects.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 4, 2018 12:12:19 GMT -8
Here's the start of the next round of majors newbuilds:
Thanks to member "future ferry driver" for posting the news article link.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jul 4, 2018 18:07:40 GMT -8
I am glad that BC Ferries is investing in more Spirit Class sized vessels. I hope this leads to more modern, longer, LNG and diesel fueled Coastal Class vessels since that would fit in to standardized of fleet. By the way, does BC Ferries own the design for Coastal Class so that any shipyard could build more vessels that look similar to Coastal Class vessels, without a lawsuit from Flensburger Schiffbau-Gesellschaft?
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grk
Chief Steward
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Post by grk on Jul 4, 2018 18:46:51 GMT -8
Why would BC Ferries not build 5 more Coastal class? They seem near perfect for the job, replacing vessels during refits would be much easier, and crew training costs would be lower. Just wondering?
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