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Post by lavalamp on Sept 10, 2018 13:54:55 GMT -8
WSF published their Draft 2040 Long Range Plan earlier today. You can find it here: wsflongrangeplan.com (and here's the PDF of the full draft plan) There's a lot to unpack in the plan, and I don't have time to go through it all now, but of particular interest to the forum would be the Investments and Implementation summary. It calls for a variety of service enhancements, terminal improvements, and up to 16 new ferries, one per year starting in 2022 and going through 2037. This would fully replace the Super, Issaquah, and Jumbo classes and also expand the fleet to allow for more maintenance time and more relief ferries. |
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 10, 2018 14:53:01 GMT -8
Thanks for posting. It's an interesting read. I haven't gone through the whole thing, but a few interesting tidbits jumped out at me: 1. They plan on retiring the Issaquah's at their 50 year service life instead of 60 years. Apparently, they are having issues. I'm not surprised considering how cheaply they were built in the first place. Some of the Issaquah's will be retired before Spokane and Walla Walla. 2. Not surprising, they really like the Olympic Class design and size. Most of the newbuilds will follow this template, including a single deck 114 car version to run inter island. In looking at their newbuild chart, they list plug-in hybrid propulsion for all of the new vessels after Suquamish. There's a lot more, so I won't spoil it  |
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Post by R30A on Sept 11, 2018 19:39:15 GMT -8
Overall timeline:
2020:
-Hyak Retired
-New Mukilteo completed
2021:
-Bainbridge Electrification
-Tacoma/Wenatchee Hybrid conversion
2022:
-Tillikum Retired
-Edmonds, Kingston, Anacortes, Orcas, Friday Harbor Electrification
-New Hybrid SOLAS Olympic to Anacortes
2023:
-Colman Dock Completed
-Puyallup Hybrid conversion
-New Hybrid SOLAS Olympic to Anacortes
2024:
-Fauntleroy, Vashon, Southworth Electrification
~Southworth second slip
2025:
-Elwha Retired
-Bremerton Electrification
2026:
-Kaleetan Retired
-New Hybrid Olympic to Bremerton (Chimacum to relief)
~Clinton Overhead complete
2027:
-Yakima Retired
-New 124 to Vashon
~Second slip, Overhead loading to Friday Harbor
~Anacortes rebuild complete
2028:
-New 124 to Vashon
~Upsized passenger capacity on Bremerton vessels to 1800.
~Upsized passenger capacity on Bainbridge vessels to 2400.
2029:
-New 124 to Vashon
-Issaquah Retired
2030:
-New 144 to Edmonds*
-Kitsap Retired
-Point Defiance, Tahlequah electrification
2031:
-New 144 to Edmonds*
-Chetzemoka Hybrid conversion
-Port Townsend, Coupeville electrification
2032:
-New 144 to Edmonds*
-Kittitas Retired
-Salish Hybrid conversion
2033:
-Spokane Retired
-Kennewick Hybrid conversion
2034:
-Walla Walla Retired
-New 144 to Bremerton
-New 144 to Mukilteo
-Mukilteo, Clinton Electrification
2035:
-Cathlamet Retired
-New 144 to Mukilteo
2036:
-Chelan Retired
-New 114 to InterIsland
2037:
-Sealth Retired
-Two New 144s to Anacortes
*The 144s going to Edmonds is only an option, but the write up appears to favor this in my opinion. The alternative would be two in its place.
The new boat deliveries don't quite line up with the new boat assignments. 5 new Hybrid Olympics, 2 of which are SOLAS to be delivered by 2025. Then come 4 124s by 2029, followed by either 7 144s of a new design or 4 new 144s and 2 202s from 2029-2037. Not sure if the "New Sealth" is counted as one of the new 144s or not, as it is to be that design with a single level. Sounds like a Queen of Alberni sort of situation. Two relief boats are added in 2024, with an additional in 2028, finally giving the system the redundancy it needs. My only complaint here is that they keep the Tillikum instead of the Hyak until the next set of Olympics come in. I think that decision will bite WSF many times in the mean time if they follow through with it.
The service being added largely seems to be expanding the span of peak service- i.e. extending the Summer season in the San Juans, making the later trips on Port Townsend run daily, and extending the 2 boat season there too. Other things mentioned are running the Inter Island and 3 boat Vashon service every day. (As well as a few other trips added here or there)
All terminals except for Sidney and Shaw are slated for electrification, although no date is given for Lopez.
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Post by waterlogged72 on Sept 12, 2018 9:10:19 GMT -8
This has been interesting reading, but one thing jumps out at me... why does Southworth need another slip? If anything, another slip is needed at Fauntleroy (which is a no-go). With the Kitsap Transit ferry starting service from Southworth in 2020, is that second slip there really needed?
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 12, 2018 9:24:39 GMT -8
This has been interesting reading, but one thing jumps out at me... why does Southworth need another slip? If anything, another slip is needed at Fauntleroy (which is a no-go). With the Kitsap Transit ferry starting service from Southworth in 2020, is that second slip there really needed? It could be laying the foundation for breaking up the triangle route? There's been much discussion on doing this in the past, but nothing has happened. Ideally, Fauntleroy-Vashon would become a point to point service, and Southworth ferries would go directly into downtown Seattle, with a small shuttle-style ferry providing a connection between Southworth and Vashon. That's a lot of infrastructure upgrades, most especially at Colman Dock, so it's likely a full break-up of the F-V-S route is no longer in the cards, but perhaps a scaled down version, with more point-to-point service between Fauntleroy and Southworth? The problem with that scenario is the capacity constraint at Fauntleroy, but those are the two reasons I can think of for needing an additional slip at Southworth. |
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 12, 2018 9:51:15 GMT -8
My only complaint here is that they keep the Tillikum instead of the Hyak until the next set of Olympics come in. I think that decision will bite WSF many times in the mean time if they follow through with it. I believe Tillikum, although an older vessel, is in better condition than Hyak, and it's only one of 2 ferries of that size, Sealth being the other one; there is still a need for 87-90 car ferries, most especially with the inter-island route. Once F-V-S goes to 3 Issaquah 124's, I think we will see Sealth moved to Friday Harbor as the new permanent inter island ferry. Perhaps that will happen when Tillikum is retired, or maybe before - not sure on their timing of all of that. |
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Post by rwbsparks on Sept 12, 2018 10:43:50 GMT -8
What’s the purpose for 2 classes of 144 car Ferries? Or will the second group of 6/7 just be an updated Olympic?
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Post by lavalamp on Sept 13, 2018 9:27:48 GMT -8
The newer 144s would probably be generally similar to the Olympic class, but include some new features such as more automation, weight reduction, and support hybridization/electrification from the outset. Note that since the new 144s and the new 124s share passenger capacity and other general specs like speed, the new ferry classes are likely to be identical, except the 144s would simply be longer to increase the auto capacity.
The new 144s (and 124s) are also designed with better subdivision of the passenger spaces to match passenger capacity (and hence crewing) to demand. Of some concern is a lower maximum passenger capacity: 1,200 vs 1,500 for the Olympics. This may limit the utility of the class somewhat.
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Post by compdude787 on Sept 13, 2018 12:49:05 GMT -8
Personally, I'm surprised that they aren't going to be building Olympic class vessels that have a passenger capacity of 2000 like the Supers currently do. You'd think that they'd want that for the Bremerton ferry.
Also, I like WSF's idea of putting three vessels on the Edmonds-Kingston run. I'd strongly support them doing that when the Jumbos are ready to be retired. They're going to want 144-car ferries with a larger passenger cabin on that run as well.
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Post by waterlogged72 on Sept 14, 2018 19:52:18 GMT -8
Also, I like WSF's idea of putting three vessels on the Edmonds-Kingston run. I'd strongly support them doing that when the Jumbos are ready to be retired. They're going to want 144-car ferries with a larger passenger cabin on that run as well. 3 boat Kingston/Edmonds service sounds like a great idea. I did a little bit of number crunching... Current Capacity between the Puyallup and Spokane is 390 car spaces Puyallup teamed up with another MkII would be 404 car spaces. 3 Olympics or similar vessels: 432 total car spaces. |
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Post by rwbsparks on Sept 15, 2018 14:10:21 GMT -8
On the current schedule, in the middle of the day, boat 2 is scheduled for anywhere between 45 and 55 minutes between sailings. With a smaller boat, 45 minutes could be achieved on every crossing. That’s 90 minutes for a ful rotation. With three boats that is a sailing every half hour. So 144x2=388 cars per hour each way. It’s currently a 20 hour weekend sailing schedule. That equates to 7,760 cars each day each way. Current capacity is 5,070 cars each day each way. That is more than a 50% increase in vehicle capacity each day, now its likely Boat 3 starts late and ends early. So I’ll subtract 4 sailings to account for that. This leaves an Edmonds-Kingston capacity of 7,184 vehicles each way, each day with three 144 car Ferries. Versus 5,070 with one 202 car ferry and one 188 car ferry.
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Post by Barnacle on Sept 18, 2018 10:59:50 GMT -8
On the current schedule, in the middle of the day, boat 2 is scheduled for anywhere between 45 and 55 minutes between sailings. With a smaller boat, 45 minutes could be achieved on every crossing. That’s 90 minutes for a ful rotation. With three boats that is a sailing every half hour. So 144x2=388 cars per hour each way. It’s currently a 20 hour weekend sailing schedule. That equates to 7,760 cars each day each way. Current capacity is 5,070 cars each day each way. That is more than a 50% increase in vehicle capacity each day, now its likely Boat 3 starts late and ends early. So I’ll subtract 4 sailings to account for that. This leaves an Edmonds-Kingston capacity of 7,184 vehicles each way, each day with three 144 car Ferries. Versus 5,070 with one 202 car ferry and one 188 car ferry. 144 x 2 = 288, not 388. = 5,760 cars a day based on every 30 minutes. |
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Post by rwbsparks on Sept 18, 2018 22:30:40 GMT -8
On the current schedule, in the middle of the day, boat 2 is scheduled for anywhere between 45 and 55 minutes between sailings. With a smaller boat, 45 minutes could be achieved on every crossing. That’s 90 minutes for a ful rotation. With three boats that is a sailing every half hour. So 144x2=388 cars per hour each way. It’s currently a 20 hour weekend sailing schedule. That equates to 7,760 cars each day each way. Current capacity is 5,070 cars each day each way. That is more than a 50% increase in vehicle capacity each day, now its likely Boat 3 starts late and ends early. So I’ll subtract 4 sailings to account for that. This leaves an Edmonds-Kingston capacity of 7,184 vehicles each way, each day with three 144 car Ferries. Versus 5,070 with one 202 car ferry and one 188 car ferry. 144 x 2 = 288, not 388. = 5,760 cars a day based on every 30 minutes. Oh my yes you’re right. And I call myself a college student. |
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Post by Kahloke on Jan 3, 2019 20:11:14 GMT -8
Here's a link to the revised 2040 long range plan released today - no longer a draft long range plan. www.wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019/01/03/WSF-2040-Long-Range-Plan-January-2019.pdfThere's a lot in here. I'm not going to go through everything, but there are some interesting highlights regarding the San Juans and Sidney: > 2025-2027: new terminal building at Anacortes > Starting in 2028, summer schedule will extend from May thru October to align with peak season fares > Vehicle holding lot at Lopez to be enlarged to accommodate queuing space for reservation holders - Lopez to finally get reservations > New overhead loading at Friday Harbor & conversion of tie-up slip to additional main slip that can be used by vehicles for loading/unloading > Relocation of all US Customs processing to Sidney terminal. That will free up significant space in Anacortes. Here is the vessel retirement schedule: 2020 Hyak
2022 Tillikum
2026 Kaleetan
2027 Yakima
2028 Elwha - this one surprises me. I thought Elwha would be the next to go, after Hyak
2029 Issaquah
2030 Kitsap
2032 Kittitas
2033 Spokane
2034 Walla Walla
2035 Cathlamet
2036 Chelan
2037 Sealth
There's a lot of other juicy stuff in the long range plan. Click on the link above to go deeper. |
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Neil
Voyager 
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Jan 3, 2019 20:44:33 GMT -8
Here's a link to the revised 2040 long range plan released today - no longer a draft long range plan. There's a lot of other juicy stuff in the long range plan. Click on the link above to go deeper. Only a ferry fan would refer to the Washington State Ferries long term plan as "juicy". Don't worry, Brandon, you're in like minded company here. Pour me a glass, with extra pulp. |
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Post by hergfest on Jan 3, 2019 21:36:55 GMT -8
I think with all the steel replacement recently done on the Elwha they are keeping her around longer. Wonder how they are paying for all this...
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Post by Olympic Ferries on Jan 4, 2019 7:56:25 GMT -8
My only complaint here is that they keep the Tillikum instead of the Hyak until the next set of Olympics come in. I think that decision will bite WSF many times in the mean time if they follow through with it. I believe Tillikum, although an older vessel, is in better condition than Hyak, and it's only one of 2 ferries of that size, Sealth being the other one; there is still a need for 87-90 car ferries, most especially with the inter-island route. Once F-V-S goes to 3 Issaquah 124's, I think we will see Sealth moved to Friday Harbor as the new permanent inter island ferry. Perhaps that will happen when Tillikum is retired, or maybe before - not sure on their timing of all of that. Sealth is slated to move to SJIs as a domestic vessel in mid-March for the end of the winter schedule, and when the Spring Schedule rolls around, the Sealth will be assigned to the interisland position starting March 31. |
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Post by Kahloke on Jan 5, 2019 11:13:13 GMT -8
There's one item in the long range plan that I think is worth posting on its own, and that's the vessel chart with the columns showing the retirement dates for current vessels, and their age when they will be retired, upcoming new-builds, and how many vessels will be in the reserve fleet. It's a good graphic that shows a lot of information in a concise format.  And, since it's not my own content, here's the link to the full document (this chart can be found on page 130): www.wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019/01/03/WSF-2040-Long-Range-Plan-January-2019.pdfOn the newbuild column I find it interesting that they are not calling the (6) 144's "Olympic Class" vessels; the ones slated to be constructed from 2031 to 2037. At this point in time, it may simply be leaving the door open for a different design. I also find it rather optimistic on their part to forecast a new boat every year. I doubt that will happen, but time will tell. In the short to medium term, it's interesting to note the next two Olympic Class vessels, forecast to start in 2023 and 2024 respectively, do not appear to be replacing Elwha, the next logical Super Class vessel to be retired based on structural/mechanical issues. In fact, Elwha is now scheduled to be the last Super to be retired, in 2028. Chronologically, it makes since, since Elwha was the last Super built, entering service in 1968, but I thought Elwha had issues inherent to it that is "hastening it to the boneyard" as once quipped by EGFleet, more so than Kaleetan and Yakima. Did the 20 million they spent on her last year fix more than I was led to believe? Curious. Up until this report, I figured the next Olympic built would be SOLAS equipped, so it could replace Elwha. As always, I'm sure things will change over time, so I'm not treating the long range plan as gospel set in stone. After all, none of what is in the plan has been funded yet, so it will be interesting to see how the plan unfolds in real time. |
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Post by Barnacle on Jan 6, 2019 16:04:13 GMT -8
Here's a link to the revised 2040 long range plan released today - no longer a draft long range plan. www.wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019/01/03/WSF-2040-Long-Range-Plan-January-2019.pdfThere's a lot in here. I'm not going to go through everything, but there are some interesting highlights regarding the San Juans and Sidney: > Vehicle holding lot at Lopez to be enlarged to accommodate queuing space for reservation holders - Lopez to finally get reservations
"Finally?" They originally didn't want it. So did we all... |
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Post by EGfleet on Jan 8, 2019 7:20:09 GMT -8
There's one item in the long range plan that I think is worth posting on its own, and that's the vessel chart with the columns showing the retirement dates for current vessels, and their age when they will be retired, upcoming new-builds, and how many vessels will be in the reserve fleet. It's a good graphic that shows a lot of information in a concise format. And, since it's not my own content, here's the link to the full document (this chart can be found on page 130): www.wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019/01/03/WSF-2040-Long-Range-Plan-January-2019.pdfOn the newbuild column I find it interesting that they are not calling the (6) 144's "Olympic Class" vessels; the ones slated to be constructed from 2031 to 2037. At this point in time, it may simply be leaving the door open for a different design. I also find it rather optimistic on their part to forecast a new boat every year. I doubt that will happen, but time will tell. In the short to medium term, it's interesting to note the next two Olympic Class vessels, forecast to start in 2023 and 2024 respectively, do not appear to be replacing Elwha, the next logical Super Class vessel to be retired based on structural/mechanical issues. In fact, Elwha is now scheduled to be the last Super to be retired, in 2028. Chronologically, it makes since, since Elwha was the last Super built, entering service in 1968, but I thought Elwha had issues inherent to it that is "hastening it to the boneyard" as once quipped by EGFleet, more so than Kaleetan and Yakima. Did the 20 million they spent on her last year fix more than I was led to believe? Curious. Up until this report, I figured the next Olympic built would be SOLAS equipped, so it could replace Elwha. As always, I'm sure things will change over time, so I'm not treating the long range plan as gospel set in stone. After all, none of what is in the plan has been funded yet, so it will be interesting to see how the plan unfolds in real time. For me, the single most disheartening thing in the entire report was this factoid: "Within the first 10 to 15 years of the Plan, service reliability risk will be highest, in part because of the large number of retiring vessels and because of the condition of the Issaquah Class vessels, among the oldest vessels in the fleet. The Issaquah Class vessels have not had enough out-of-service time or funding to complete the preservation requirements of the Lifecycle Cost Model. As a result, at their current age of about 40 years—still a decade above industry standard for vessel lifespan of about 30 years—the Issaquah Class vessels are experiencing reliability issues and steel degradation that will shorten their attainable service life."In other words, their reliability has essentially worked them into an early grave due to the legislature's failure to fully fund the ferry system over the last two decades. The Issaquahs have been so busy having to fill in for other, older vessels being out that they've been worked to death. And of course the Issaquah is a prime example of this, having been out well over 7 months when a host of unexpected issues arose after years of putting off work on her. I know they had a rough start, but those six have been the backbone of the fleet for a long time. As for the Elwha, I wasn't surprised to see that her life has been extended. They're going to justify putting that steel into her one way or another. However, just because she's slated to work that long doesn't mean she'll make it. New steel doesn't fix the mechanical issues that plague the entire class. Also, being in the fleet that long doesn't necessarily mean working until 2028, either. She might very well end up spending a lot of time around Eagle Harbor, "at ready." |
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Post by avgeekjoe on Apr 11, 2019 21:09:38 GMT -8
FYI guys there are going to be a series of community meetings about this:
Kingston: Monday, April 29, 6 p.m., Village Green Community Center, 26159 Dulay Road NE, Kingston
Coupeville: Wednesday, May 1, 6 p.m., Island County Commissioner’s Hearing Room, 1 NE 7th St., Coupeville
Bremerton: Wednesday, May 8, 5: 30 p.m., Kitsap Conference Center, 100 Washington Ave., Bremerton
Bainbridge Island: Thursday, May 9, 6 p.m., Bainbridge Island Senior Center, 370 Brien Drive SE, Bainbridge Island
Anacortes: Tuesday, May 14, 4 p.m., City Hall Municipal Building, 904 6th St., Anacortes
Eastsound: Wednesday, May 15, 4 p.m., Orcas Senior Center, 62 Henry Road, Eastsound
Southworth: Tuesday, May 21, 6 p.m., Harper Church, 10384 SE Sedgwick Road, Port Orchard
Mukilteo: Thursday, May 23, terminal project open house 5-6 p.m., meeting 6 p.m., Rosehill Community Center, 304 Lincoln Ave., Mukilteo
Vashon Island: Thursday, May 30, 7 p.m., Vashon Island High School Cafeteria, 9600 SW 204th St., Vashon
I don't know how long I'll be at the Anacortes one, but I could be at the Mukilteo one until 6:30 PM...
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jul 10, 2019 20:53:46 GMT -8
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 7, 2019 20:54:11 GMT -8
I am wondering what upsizing will look for Bainbridge and Bremerton, will the vessels have there safety features upgrade to suit the capacity needed. Also how many passenger can Jumbo Mark II hold? I am asking because the fleet page says 2500 but upsized is 2400 which is 100 person reduction.
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Post by Kahloke on Aug 8, 2019 5:27:25 GMT -8
I am wondering what upsizing will look for Bainbridge and Bremerton, will the vessels have there safety features upgrade to suit the capacity needed. Also how many passenger can Jumbo Mark II hold? I am asking because the fleet page says 2500 but upsized is 2400 which is 100 person reduction. The 2040 Long Range Plan states it will be a combination of increasing life raft/evacuation systems and enclosing deck space to get the bump in capacity on the Jumbo Mark II's. There's been talk in the past of enclosing more areas of the sun deck on those vessels, so I suspect that is where they will gain the seating. As for the listed capacity, the fleet page says 2499, but I'm not sure if that is really accurate. The long range plan says the JMII's can carry 1800 passengers, and that the afore-mentioned modifications will increase it to 2400. So, I guess it begs the question, what is the real capacity of these vessels? www.wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019/01/07/WSF-2040-Long-Range-Plan-2019.pdf |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Nov 8, 2019 21:26:59 GMT -8
Will WSF have to change the Long Range Plan due I-976 being passed by voters?
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