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Post by old_wsf_fan on Apr 13, 2008 20:30:08 GMT -8
I have been thinking about the Island Home design for a while now. At first I thought she was homely, downright ugly, but after a while she does grow on you. Just a radical departure from what I am used to.
I wonder what changes WSF will want to do to her? I can think of a few myself. I think they might change the bridge design and hurricane deck configuration. Due to security concerns, I know they would not want the general public so close to the pilot houses. Also, maybe adding ramps to the sides of the ferry, such as the Izzy class instead of hydraulic ramps would function better.
Could WSF change the entire upper works of the boat closer to their design and get it to all work?
Of course this would slow up the deployment of the boats.
Just wondering what other forum members think.
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Post by DENelson83 on Apr 13, 2008 20:43:10 GMT -8
They'll probably give her the same trapezoid-shaped superstructure found on the other ships in the WSF fleet, with an overheight vehicle deck and no bow doors.
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Post by Kahloke on Apr 13, 2008 21:12:06 GMT -8
Not doing bow doors would sort of negate the whole idea of doing an Island Home Class design to begin with. I think WSF will keep the bow doors. Admiralty Inlet is one of the most exposed stretches of water WSF vessels sail in. Having a completely enclosed car deck might lessen the number of cancelled sailings due to stormy conditions.
Here are a few design changes I think would benefit WSF's version:
1. eliminate the saddle lounges on the sides, thus opening the car deck level all the way up, creating more overheight space. It also makes the passenger cabin area smaller which is a plus in this case.
2. eliminate the platform decks. Although the platforms enable the ferry to carry more vehicles, the complexity and time involved in raising and lowering them will increase vessel turnaround time. Keep it simple with 1 car deck level. It will also be easier to squeeze in additional sailings with a shorter dwell time, which I think would be a greater benefit than the platforms.
3. Go with a central stairwell/mechanical chase with 6 lanes of traffic on the main car deck (3+3), instead of Island Home's twin stairwell/5 lane configuration (1+3+1). I don't know if this one is possible, but such a setup would accommodate more vehicles on the main car deck. Aside from this being a fairly radical design change, another point of contention may be whether 2 egress points from the passenger cabin to the car deck will be acceptable from a regulations standpoint (this was brought up by Barnacle).
As far as the bridge goes, I like the bridge design as it currently exists on Island Home, and as far as security goes, WSF may decide that the upper outside deck should be off limits to passengers entirely, as is the case with most WSF vessels now. It could be that having the two outside bow decks forward of the main passenger cabin,will be enough, especially since Port Townsend-Keystone is light on foot traffic as compared to Island Home's Martha's Vineyard route. I am curious to see what WSF comes up with. Exciting times!
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Apr 13, 2008 21:14:04 GMT -8
They could always just gate up the bridge entries like on the Jumbos and the Mark II's and keep that top deck open. 3+3 central stairwell configuration is a great idea to me, but what about the safety perspective of it? Would the CG approve of it?
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 14, 2008 15:30:36 GMT -8
As I've stated elsewhere, it's up to the USCG and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFRs).
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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 15, 2008 12:02:08 GMT -8
Also, maybe adding ramps to the sides of the ferry, such as the Izzy class instead of hydraulic ramps would function better. Would they be able to do that w/o having to lengthen the boat?
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Post by BreannaF on May 27, 2008 4:11:01 GMT -8
Today's Seattle Times article on the Island Home ferry is the first really descriptive thing I have seen in the public media about these new boats. ================================================= Island Home ferries to replace aging boats for Port Townsend runsBy Susan Gilmore Seattle Times staff reporter WOODS HOLE, Mass. — When engineers with Washington State Ferries visited this Massachusetts town in February to look at its Island Home ferry, winds were blowing at 40 knots and the seas were 8 feet high. If those conditions existed on the Keystone-Port Townsend ferry run with the temporary boat now being used, the trip would have been canceled, said Ron Wohlfrom, vessel project engineer for Washington ferries. But the Island Home did operate. Weather has rarely caused it to skip a run. This ferry, which operates between Woods Hole and Martha's Vineyard, is the same type of boat the state plans to build to replace the Steel Electric ferries taken out of service in November. The state hopes to have two Island Home boats on the route in 2010. "The boat is about the same size as the Steel Electrics and has about the same car-carrying capacity," said Wohlfrom. "With the design already in existence, most of the drawings can be quickly changed and we can get it out for bids quickly." The Island Home, which has been operating for about 18 months in Martha's Vineyard, was designed by Seattle's Elliott Bay Design. It was the winner among four other ferry types, according to Edward Jackson, a ferry captain who was on the design team with Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket Steamship Authority. The sleek ferry is 255 feet long and can carry 60 cars, and up to as many as 76 with an added lift. It can handle 1,200 passengers and travels at about 16 knots. It takes 45 minutes for the 3-½-mile crossing. The Port Townsend-Keystone crossing is about five miles, and state officials say its Island Home boat will carry only about 650 passengers. Rave reviews On the Island Home, there are three sun decks, a quiet area for studying and free Wi-Fi — something Washington State Ferries doesn't have. [Washington ferries charge for the service.] "It's tremendous," said Rick Labrecque, an Edgartown banker who rides the ferry every day. He reads and works on his computer during the 45-minute crossing. "The boat hardly lists at all." He said at $7 for a one-way walk-on ticket — and less for his multiday pass — it's also fairly inexpensive. "The ferry is one of the best," said Keith Dodson, who has been commuting on it for a year. "It really handles the rough water and it has a huge media center with free Wi-Fi." Wohlfrom said Washington state's new ferry will be very similar to the Island Home. There will be outdoor seating, though not as much as on the Nantucket ferry. And unlike the state's other ferries, the new ones will have two 6-foot-high doors on rollers at each end, which help keep water off the deck in rough crossings. The Nantucket ferry has a full-sized door that closes off the ends of the ferry, and Jeff Brown, port engineer with the Nantucket ferry authority, said it saves a lot of cars from being damaged by saltwater. He said that without the doors, one-quarter of all trips would be canceled. In 18 months, maybe one trip has been aborted, Brown said. The boat's snack bar was designed after those on Washington State Ferries, he said. "It's a very quiet boat," said Wohlfrom. "There's not a lot of vibration and it has a very smooth operation." Money budgeted He said the state was surprised to learn the Island Home has the same engines as the state has already purchased for the yet-to-be-built 144-car ferries. The Legislature this year appropriated $84.5 million to replace the 80-year-old Steel Electric Class vessels that were pulled out of service because of damaged hulls. The state initially planned to build one boat identical to the Steilacoom II, which has been leased by Pierce County to the state for the Port Townsend run. But when bids for that boat came in $9 million over the estimate, the state decided to abandon that effort and instead build just two Island Home boats. The Nantucket Island Home boat was built in Mississippi for $33 million.
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Post by Kahloke on May 27, 2008 17:55:54 GMT -8
That's interesting that WSF is not going to install full-height doors at the bows. I would think that full-height doors would be preferable on the PT-KEY route given the rough weather conditions which often plague that crossing.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2008 19:22:39 GMT -8
That's interesting that WSF is not going to install full-height doors at the bows. I would think that full-height doors would be preferable on the PT-KEY route given the rough weather conditions which often plague that crossing. I think you read it wrong (I do that sometimes especially when I haven't had my coffee) I stated in the article "And unlike the state's other ferries, the new ones will have two 6-foot-high doors on rollers at each end, which help keep water off the deck in rough crossings." So it looks like we will finally have some ferries that have some doors on them here in Puget Sound.
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Post by BreannaF on May 27, 2008 19:39:49 GMT -8
Yes, they will have doors where all of the current WSF's do not. But to picture a 6-foot door, you and I are a little under 6 feet tall, my minivan is 6-foot-6, and the hole at the end of the car deck would need to be 16-18 feet tall to accommodate full size commercial trucks. So a six-foot-door would look like a tall fence across the car deck.
Unless they are talking about something else here......
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2008 6:54:03 GMT -8
Wow! If the doors were only 6 feet tall then they wouldn't be able to carry trucks or any other over heights on the route. I took it as they are each 6 feet wide. I am 6'3" so I would have to duck under them if they were only 6 feet tall. Just my thoughts.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on May 28, 2008 6:59:46 GMT -8
My guess is that WSF may be having traditional "pickle forks" at the ends on the Saloon Deck of these new ferries, the usual angled steelwork at the ends, and then the six foot high rotating horizontal sliding "wave breakers" rather than the small bulwarks and chain barriers. This way, the captains can see the bow and related activities without needing to use video screens.
Also, I think WSF is going for natural ventilation of the Main Deck rather than the seal and electric blower ventilation. I think it takes a lot of power resources of the ship to run those blowers (one at each end). Aboard the MV ISLAND HOME, these vertical fixtures run from the overhead of the Main Deck through a large ductwork structure in the Saloon Deck cabin and to openings on the Sun Deck.
Haven't seen the actual new design yet, but this is my guesstimate.
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Post by Kahloke on May 28, 2008 8:21:18 GMT -8
My guess is that WSF may be having traditional "pickle forks" at the ends on the Saloon Deck of these new ferries, the usual angled steelwork at the ends, and then the six foot high rotating horizontal sliding "wave breakers" rather than the small bulwarks and chain barriers. This way, the captains can see the bow and related activities without needing to use video screens. Also, I think WSF is going for natural ventilation of the Main Deck rather than the seal and electric blower ventilation. I think it takes a lot of power resources of the ship to run those blowers (one at each end). Aboard the MV ISLAND HOME, these vertical fixtures run from the overhead of the Main Deck through a large ductwork structure in the Saloon Deck cabin and to openings on the Sun Deck. Haven't seen the actual new design yet, but this is my guesstimate. I hadn't thought about pickle forks, but that makes a bit of sense. I did, however, think about the ventilation issue, and more-or-less came to the same conclusion as you did in terms of natural ventilation being a reason for installing shorter doors. Now I'm curious, more than ever, what the final design is going to look like.
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Post by EGfleet on May 30, 2008 14:15:36 GMT -8
My guess is that WSF may be having traditional "pickle forks" at the ends on the Saloon Deck of these new ferries, the usual angled steelwork at the ends, and then the six foot high rotating horizontal sliding "wave breakers" rather than the small bulwarks and chain barriers. This way, the captains can see the bow and related activities without needing to use video screens. Also, I think WSF is going for natural ventilation of the Main Deck rather than the seal and electric blower ventilation. I think it takes a lot of power resources of the ship to run those blowers (one at each end). Aboard the MV ISLAND HOME, these vertical fixtures run from the overhead of the Main Deck through a large ductwork structure in the Saloon Deck cabin and to openings on the Sun Deck. Haven't seen the actual new design yet, but this is my guesstimate. I hadn't thought about pickle forks, but that makes a bit of sense. I did, however, think about the ventilation issue, and more-or-less came to the same conclusion as you did in terms of natural ventilation being a reason for installing shorter doors. Now I'm curious, more than ever, what the final design is going to look like. Well, take a look...here's the page for the design modifications. ;D wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Ferries/NewVessel/FAQ.htm
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FNS
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Post by FNS on May 30, 2008 15:16:56 GMT -8
...And, here is a peek at the new MV QUILLAYUTE and MV QUILCENE! I am right. The "pickle forks" are being used along with foot passenger boarding gates. I think these will be well geared for other runs that use upper passenger ramps and one of these would do well on the Sidney run after the two vessel season is over on the Keystone run until after the holidays. Then, these two take turns in maintenance until the two vessel season starts up again on the Keystone run in the spring. I am also right that the Main Deck will be naturally ventilated. That means no forced ventilation and sealed deck. We will see wave breakers instead of full doors. Looks like the Tween Deck lounges are still in the design. These act as access to the Saloon Deck. If you look at the square hole, that's an MES Station. The stowable platforms are off the drawing table for now. I am happy to see the Sun Deck being retained in the design. Keystone riders will find this fun. The End Number One elevator serves this deck. But, this is not the first time Port Townsend will see this feature on any WSF ferries serving their city. Back in 1979, after the sinking of the Hood Canal Bridge, WSF used Supers and Jumbos (each taking turns) on the Edmonds-Port Townsend run. These have a Sun Deck. Another thing, these will be slightly longer than the MV ISLAND HOME. A wee bit more usable Main Deck space will be added. Six frames will be added to the base hull design. The bows will be extended out about a foot or two at each end and will be set to WSF standards with the typical bevel that will be placed ahead of the "wave breakers". My guesstimate is that the overall length of these new Keystone ferries will be about 272 feet compared to 255 for the MV ISLAND HOME. To be continued...
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Post by Kahloke on May 30, 2008 18:46:45 GMT -8
Wow! that's good information - the most I've seen from WSF thus far. Thanks for posting the link
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on May 30, 2008 20:36:19 GMT -8
Based on this design it seems that WSF is remaining firmly dedicated to their pickleforks.
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Post by Barnacle on May 31, 2008 5:56:28 GMT -8
Based on this design it seems that WSF is remaining firmly dedicated to their pickleforks. Why shouldn't we be? And, although the boats won't be seeing Sidney anytime soon (I don't think they're being fully outfitted for SOLAS, and I don't think either one will have a Duty Free Shop aboard on the off-chance it will be sitting in), the picklefork design helps to ensure that we still have boats that can be used elsewhere in the fleet if we so desire. That was one of the major sticking points about not wanting boats built specifically for the PTK run. I'm surprised they kept the saddle lounges, though. I'd figured that the powers would've reconfigured the car deck to a more conventional set-up for WSF rather than the one-three-one idea. Still, if it helps get the boats built quicker, let's go.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Jul 11, 2008 19:56:10 GMT -8
Here is an update from WSF on what is on the slate of features aboard the new Keystone ferries:
BIKERS TO GET ROOMY STORAGE SPACE!
One of the Tween Deck lounges you see in the design of the SSA's MV ISLAND HOME will be designated a Bike Deck aboard the new Keystone ferries. I think this will most likely be the starboard side. Bikers will be taking their two wheelers up the stairway and will have a deck all of their own.
A report to WSF also suggests that four of these 273 (estimated) footers be built. In addition of what's slated for the Keystone run, one would be placed on the Tahlequah run and the other serving among the San Juans. The port Tween Deck lounge can be closed off on the Tahlequah run, as we see in the ISLAND HOME's original design. A good set of identical ferries that can do interchangeable work besides their designated services. We'll see what kind of actual acts WSF will take on this idea.
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 12, 2008 16:26:29 GMT -8
Here is an update from WSF on what is on the slate of features aboard the new Keystone ferries: BIKERS TO GET ROOMY STORAGE SPACE! One of the Tween Deck lounges you see in the design of the SSA's MV ISLAND HOME will be designated a Bike Deck aboard the new Keystone ferries. I think this will most likely be the starboard side. Bikers will be taking their two wheelers up the stairway and will have a deck all of their own. A report to WSF also suggests that four of these 273 (estimated) footers be built. In addition of what's slated for the Keystone run, one would be placed on the Tahlequah run and the other serving among the San Juans. The port Tween Deck lounge can be closed off on the Tahlequah run, as we see in the ISLAND HOME's original design. A good set of identical ferries that can do interchangeable work besides their designated services. We'll see what kind of actual acts WSF will take on this idea. (CYNIC ALERT!) (a) Source please? (b) A report can say whatever it bloody well wants, including that the whole thing should be built out of bread pudding. Doesn't mean the funding's there to build four. (End CYNIC ALERT!)
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Jul 12, 2008 18:52:23 GMT -8
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 12, 2008 19:04:30 GMT -8
Ah! Thank you.
Again, the report can say whatever it wants on how many should be built... after all, there were at one point plans to build seven more Super class ferries. They eventually became two Jumbos. ;D
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Jul 12, 2008 22:39:18 GMT -8
Ah! Thank you. Again, the report can say whatever it wants on how many should be built... after all, there were at one point plans to build seven more Super class ferries. They eventually became two Jumbos. ;D You'd think seven more supers would've just gotten boring after a little while, but they probably thought ferries that were all identical would economize costs for maintenance and parts.
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Post by Kahloke on Jul 16, 2008 11:58:04 GMT -8
I'm not sure we would ever need 4 of this type of ferry. The first two (and only vessels currently funded) should be adequate on the PT-KEY route for awhile, especially if they can increase the sailing frequency. It seems like the San Juans are getting busy enough to warrant a bigger inter-island ferry during high tourist season (May - October), although an Island Home class vessel would probably work well on inter-island the rest of the year (October-May). I'd be willing to bet they will use one of the first two Island Home-type vessels as an inter-island ferry during the low season, when only 1 will be required at Port Townsend.
Point Defiance-Tahlequah will probably upgrade to one of the Evergreens once they retire Rhododendron and start getting the new 144's put into service. I think the Evergreen State will be retired not too long after Rhody, and the other two won't last too many years beyond their sister, so what happens after that is anyone's guess. Would we want to build a 3rd Island Home vessel for that run, and reduce capacity from 87 to 64 (or 70 if the design is widened per the report)? This is all a number of years out, so who's to say what will happen between now and then.
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Post by old_wsf_fan on Jul 17, 2008 20:39:46 GMT -8
Since there are so many modifications being planned, can the design still accomodate these changes? At what point does the vessel become too wide or long to be able to maintain the shallow draft needed for Pt. Townsend/Keystone?
I am no engineer but will all the planned design modifications work?
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