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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 3:03:13 GMT -8
Yeah, I know I've posted something like this in another thread before, but I've made some small changes and a map to go with it.  A Victoria-Seattle passenger ferry with stops along the way at Port Townsend, Freeland and Edmonds.This would be a less luxurious, less expeditious yet more affordable replacement for the Victoria Clipper that would transport commuters from Whidbey Island and Northern Olympic Peninsula, as well as visitors to/from Victoria to Seattle, among other passengers. Just an idea I put forth based on the pleas from the Pt. Townsend residents clamouring for the continuation of a direct PO ferry service to Seattle after a brief stint with one around last Christmas. I figure the extra stops should serve more people and make the idea more feasible and justifiable. |
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Post by Barnacle on May 8, 2008 6:05:23 GMT -8
With a lengthy run like that, it would take a fleet of boats to make the sailings close enough to be useful... and with the cost vs. return on a passenger fare, they'd better be canoes.
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 6:18:44 GMT -8
A fleet as big as the Victoria Clipper's ought to do, shouldn't it? (3 vessels?)
And if the Victoria Express can manage to carry people between Victoria and Port Angeles for $12.50 one way, they should be able to do Victoria-Seattle for something like $40. For Port Townsend-Seattle, they should be able to manage at around $15 with subsidies.
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Post by Northern Exploration on May 8, 2008 7:31:23 GMT -8
A passenger only ferry service will likely face one more hurtle. Jazz will drop their fares to prevent people from switching from air to fast ferry, and their pockets are as deep as Air Canada will allow. Then the smaller airlines will be forced to do so as well. This during a period of unprecedented gas prices.
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 7:56:40 GMT -8
A passenger only ferry service will likely face one more hurtle. Jazz will drop their fares to prevent people from switching from air to fast ferry, and their pockets are as deep as Air Canada will allow. Then the smaller airlines will be forced to do so as well. This during a period of unprecedented gas prices. No worries. Flights in and out of Canadian airports are always outrageously expensive due to the taxes. |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 8, 2008 9:15:14 GMT -8
A passenger only ferry service will likely face one more hurtle. Jazz will drop their fares to prevent people from switching from air to fast ferry, and their pockets are as deep as Air Canada will allow. Then the smaller airlines will be forced to do so as well. This during a period of unprecedented gas prices. No worries. Flights in and out of Canadian airports are always outrageously expensive due to the taxes. Not necessarily...landing and parking fees, immigration, and special taxes add up to about $16CAN per pax for YYJ assuming a CRJ700 seating 78. So if one assumes about $22 per pax for fuel (yes, I worked that out so it should be close, 175km trip distance, $4/kg fuel cost FOB, CRJ 700 specs), you still have $2 per pax for salaries, which just covers the pilot and 1st officer's salaries  . So if the airline is willing to take a dollar or two hit per passenger (Flight attendant wages), they could conceivably compete as long as they want. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 9:19:04 GMT -8
No worries. Flights in and out of Canadian airports are always outrageously expensive due to the taxes. Not necessarily...landing and parking fees, immigration, and special taxes add up to about $16CAN per pax for YYJ assuming a CRJ700 seating 78. So if one assumes about $22 per pax for fuel (yes, I worked that out so it should be close, 175km trip distance, $4/kg fuel cost FOB, CRJ 700 specs), you still have $2 per pax for salaries, which just covers the pilot and 1st officer's salaries . So if the airline is willing to take a dollar or two hit per passenger (Flight attendant wages), they could conceivably compete as long as they want. Uh no. I meant the huge tax that is slapped onto the price of the ticket itself. |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on May 8, 2008 11:03:51 GMT -8
Okay, but even with the $45 dollar add northbound and the $78 add southbound, you still aren't far off of the Clipper which charges $95 each way. IMO, this is still a reasonable loss factor for Jazz if they choose to pressure the service out of business as pnwtraveler suggested.
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 11:18:11 GMT -8
Just from doing an Expedia search, the cheapest round trip I can find for Victoria-Seattle for June 1 is $267, and that's Alaska Airlines. The cheapest Air Canada (no Jazz found) is $325, and that's connecting through Calgary. They're going to have to do much better than that.
And who's going to go all the way up to North Saanich to fly into Seattle?
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Post by BreannaF on May 8, 2008 11:23:43 GMT -8
A fleet as big as the Victoria Clipper's ought to do, shouldn't it? (3 vessels?) And if the Victoria Express can manage to carry people between Victoria and Port Angeles for $12.50 one way, they should be able to do Victoria-Seattle for something like $40. For Port Townsend-Seattle, they should be able to manage at around $15 with subsidies. OK, beyond my better judgement, I'll bite, since you have obviously given this matter a lot of thought. 1) What specifically makes you think that Victoria Clipper (or a competitor) could do this trip for much less than the $79.00 one way that they charge during the low season? 2) The current Victoria Clipper does a one way trip in 2 hours 45 minutes. With the stops you propose, 3:30 is a more probable outcome. With an hour layover at Victoria or Seattle for customs and whatever, figure an 8 hour round trip. In this scenario, 3 boats would provide service to any given point in a given direction every 2 hours and 40 minutes. This doesn't seem like it would constitute "regular service" over the course of a day, by any means. Does it? 3) Lack of "amenities" on this boat vs. the Victoria Clipper doesn't account for fully half the fare. 4) In the current state funding environment, what makes you think that the State of Washington is going to subsidize a PT-Seattle passenger service. 5) Who is taking a passenger ferry to Freeland? Not from PT or Seattle. Who is taking one from Edmonds to anywhere? Doesn't Sound Transit take me there on the train from Seattle for about $6.00? Or by bus for about $3.00? Have we even established that PT-Seattle will work for more than a few weeks during the holidays or as a novelty? Will 3 new US Customs outposts be a problem? Hey, I'm all for making travel around Cascadia on the Salish Sea  as convenient as possible. Would eliminating Victoria for now make it more feasable? Would a stop in Kingston, as in a PT-Kingston-Seattle service make more sense as a viable commuter option? There was a thread around here a while back where we talked about our "dream" ferry routes. And this likely belongs on that list. If you have a legitimate idea for a service that might work, you will find the most open-minded group of ferry aficionados here who would be willing to discuss ideas for making it work, or why it might not work. Please don't be offended when some of us offer constructive criticism. |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 8, 2008 11:55:44 GMT -8
It is a nice idea but the Admiralty Inlet side of Freeland would a logistical nightmare. That side of about 95% of the West side of Whidbey Island has zoning to protect it from having any kind of commercial buildings, docks, etc. It is for this reason there are only 2 restaurants on the island that face west and have a view of the water and Olympic Mountains. Also part of the reasons for all the headaches about the keystone ferry dock. Here is a link for a map that will show just how protected and big the area is there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Ebey%27s_Landing_National_Historical_Reserve.jpgBecause of the laws there that is part of why Victoria Clipper experimented with stopping at Whidbey would go the back side of the island aka Saratoga Passage all towns are that side IE Clinton, Langley, Freeland, Coupeville, Oak Harbor. So I say skip Whidbey and it might be possible. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 12:03:44 GMT -8
OK, beyond my better judgement, I'll bite, since you have obviously given this matter a lot of thought. 1) What specifically makes you think that Victoria Clipper (or a competitor) could do this trip for much less than the $79.00 one way that they charge during the low season? 2) The current Victoria Clipper does a one way trip in 2 hours 45 minutes. With the stops you propose, 3:30 is a more probable outcome. With an hour layover at Victoria or Seattle for customs and whatever, figure an 8 hour round trip. In this scenario, 3 boats would provide service to any given point in a given direction every 2 hours and 40 minutes. This doesn't seem like it would constitute "regular service" over the course of a day, by any means. Does it? 3) Lack of "amenities" on this boat vs. the Victoria Clipper doesn't account for fully half the fare. 4) In the current state funding environment, what makes you think that the State of Washington is going to subsidize a PT-Seattle passenger service. 5) Who is taking a passenger ferry to Freeland? Not from PT or Seattle. Who is taking one from Edmonds to anywhere? Doesn't Sound Transit take me there on the train from Seattle for about $6.00? Or by bus for about $3.00? Have we even established that PT-Seattle will work for more than a few weeks during the holidays or as a novelty? Will 3 new US Customs outposts be a problem? Hey, I'm all for making travel around Cascadia on the Salish Sea as convenient as possible. Would eliminating Victoria for now make it more feasable? Would a stop in Kingston, as in a PT-Kingston-Seattle service make more sense as a viable commuter option? There was a thread around here a while back where we talked about our "dream" ferry routes. And this likely belongs on that list. If you have a legitimate idea for a service that might work, you will find the most open-minded group of ferry aficionados here who would be willing to discuss ideas for making it work, or why it might not work. Please don't be offended when some of us offer constructive criticism. 1) Less amenities and luxuries. Get a public agency (WSF) to operate it on a nonprofit basis. If Victoria Express (a private, unsubsidized company) can manage $12.50, why not? 2) Adequate enough frequency for the expected volume of travellers along that corridor, no? 3) See 1). 4) It's only fair that they subsidize it as they do the other ferries. What's more, shouldn't they be encouraging and supporting carless transit? 5) The Freeland stop could serve as the boarding point for all of Whidbey Island. Build a park and ride and a transit exchange next to the dock. People might want to get off at Edmonds to go places in Snohomish or North King County, and people from those places might want to head up to Victoria. It's not aimed at Seattle-Edmonds traffic. Just providing an extra boarding/disembarking point for those who could use it. And because the ridership on the PT-Seattle segment would be insufficient, that is why the Victoria leg of it is included--to get ridership up to the critical mass needed to keep the service viable. If Victoria Clipper can have three round trips at $90 each way in peak season, there should be enough demand for 4 or 5 at half the price, right? As for customs and immigration clearance, do it all at the Belleville Terminal in Victoria. If Vancouver International Airport and Pacific Central Station can have US customs outposts, why not? Anyways, my best shot. I'm sure there are others who are better knowledgeable on the economics and technicalities associated with a ferry operation. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 12:14:37 GMT -8
It is a nice idea but the Admiralty Inlet side of Freeland would a logistical nightmare. That side of about 95% of the West side of Whidbey Island has zoning to protect it from having any kind of commercial buildings, docks, etc. It is for this reason there are only 2 restaurants on the island that face west and have a view of the water and Olympic Mountains. Also part of the reasons for all the headaches about the keystone ferry dock. Here is a link for a map that will show just how protected and big the area is there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Ebey%27s_Landing_National_Historical_Reserve.jpgBecause of the laws there that is part of why Victoria Clipper experimented with stopping at Whidbey would go the back side of the island aka Saratoga Passage all towns are that side IE Clinton, Langley, Freeland, Coupeville, Oak Harbor. So I say skip Whidbey and it might be possible. This might be a good place for a stop. maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.998121,-122.544712&spn=0.004042,0.011373&t=h&z=17 There's a pier already there, which I suppose could be converted for passenger ferry use, and a barren square of land right next to it which I would assume to be a parking lot. Maybe convert that into a park and ride and a bus loop. |
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Post by Barnacle on May 8, 2008 14:57:12 GMT -8
The silence caused by the absence of demand is deafening.
Why would WSF want to run a PO boat from Victoria to anywhere in the US in pretty much direct competition with its Sidney run? We tried that on the Bremerton run, with disappointing results.
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 19:25:00 GMT -8
The silence caused by the absence of demand is deafening. Why would WSF want to run a PO boat from Victoria to anywhere in the US in pretty much direct competition with its Sidney run? We tried that on the Bremerton run, with disappointing results. It works for the Clipper. Maybe WSF might want to use the boats running that corridor to serve its in-state passengers. Let them hitch a ride along the way, so to say. As for competition with the Sidney run, they are completely different routes and serve a completely different clientele. One is entirely for those without a car, and as for the other, how many foot passengers make it all the way up to Anacortes from Seattle just to ride the ferry to a place 15 miles north of Victoria? It's like saying why would they run their Edmonds-Kingston ferry in competition to their Seattle-Bainbridge, but worse. It's also good if the intermediate communities served can grab some of the Seattle-Victoria passengers and tourists along the way, right? |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 8, 2008 20:21:08 GMT -8
It is a nice idea but the Admiralty Inlet side of Freeland would a logistical nightmare. That side of about 95% of the West side of Whidbey Island has zoning to protect it from having any kind of commercial buildings, docks, etc. It is for this reason there are only 2 restaurants on the island that face west and have a view of the water and Olympic Mountains. Also part of the reasons for all the headaches about the keystone ferry dock. Here is a link for a map that will show just how protected and big the area is there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Ebey%27s_Landing_National_Historical_Reserve.jpgBecause of the laws there that is part of why Victoria Clipper experimented with stopping at Whidbey would go the back side of the island aka Saratoga Passage all towns are that side IE Clinton, Langley, Freeland, Coupeville, Oak Harbor. So I say skip Whidbey and it might be possible. This might be a good place for a stop. maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.998121,-122.544712&spn=0.004042,0.011373&t=h&z=17 There's a pier already there, which I suppose could be converted for passenger ferry use, and a barren square of land right next to it which I would assume to be a parking lot. Maybe convert that into a park and ride and a bus loop. ruddernut, Aside from the facts that the dock is privet and a few miles away from town and the locals that live in that quite part of the island wouldn’t be very happy about all the traffic. The amount of rezoning needed to be able to do this and build anything around it such as paces to eat and any kind of stores just wouldn’t be worth it. Freeland already has a park and ride a few stores and places to eat but they are on the other side of the island for like I said before every town and city on Whidbey island is an East side, nothing west. It’s a nice idea but Not realistic. |
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Post by Kahloke on May 8, 2008 20:27:15 GMT -8
It's interesting that you bring up this passenger ferry idea right now. There was a video on KOMO 4 news today which showcases a small high speed passenger-only ferry. Go to komotv.com, then under their Top Videos section for "Speedy Boat Noted as Future Ferry Candidate". It probably won't ever happen, but the timing is interesting.
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 20:41:37 GMT -8
This might be a good place for a stop. maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=47.998121,-122.544712&spn=0.004042,0.011373&t=h&z=17 There's a pier already there, which I suppose could be converted for passenger ferry use, and a barren square of land right next to it which I would assume to be a parking lot. Maybe convert that into a park and ride and a bus loop. ruddernut, Aside from the facts that the dock is privet and a few miles away from town and the locals that live in that quite part of the island wouldn’t be very happy about all the traffic. The amount of rezoning needed to be able to do this and build anything around it such as paces to eat and any kind of stores just wouldn’t be worth it. Freeland already has a park and ride a few stores and places to eat but they are on the other side of the island for like I said before every town and city on Whidbey island is an East side, nothing west. It’s a nice idea but Not realistic. The immediate neighbours might be pissed, but the rest of the island would be more than happy to have a convenient transit connection and a potential tourist draw and source of economic activity in their midst, wouldn't they? NIMBYs need to be dealt with heavy handedly. ;D And I believe it's just a short hop from the east side of the island by car or by bus. Who owns that dock anyways, and what is it used for? Would they not be willing to loan and share it, especially if some nice juicy upgrades are to be made to it at no cost to them? If they're going to be incompatible, then another one will have to be constructed nearby, I guess. |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 8, 2008 23:16:28 GMT -8
ruddernut, Aside from the facts that the dock is privet and a few miles away from town and the locals that live in that quite part of the island wouldn’t be very happy about all the traffic. The amount of rezoning needed to be able to do this and build anything around it such as paces to eat and any kind of stores just wouldn’t be worth it. Freeland already has a park and ride a few stores and places to eat but they are on the other side of the island for like I said before every town and city on Whidbey island is an East side, nothing west. It’s a nice idea but Not realistic. The immediate neighbours might be pissed, but the rest of the island would be more than happy to have a convenient transit connection and a potential tourist draw and source of economic activity in their midst, wouldn't they? NIMBYs need to be dealt with heavy handedly. ;D And I believe it's just a short hop from the east side of the island by car or by bus. Who owns that dock anyways, and what is it used for? Would they not be willing to loan and share it, especially if some nice juicy upgrades are to be made to it at no cost to them? If they're going to be incompatible, then another one will have to be constructed nearby, I guess. ruddernut, Being from South Whidbey I will tell you that I can think a few times passenger ferries have been tried to Seattle waterfront and they have all failed. Victoria Clipper also used to stop in Langley that didn’t last long either. It is a nice idea but the island really won’t support it let lone want it. They have changed zoning laws to make it so no more developments or subdivisions can happen. Here is a link about Passenger ferries.. From Passenger Only Ferry Coalition www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?id=56 |
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Post by ruddernut on May 9, 2008 2:45:58 GMT -8
ruddernut, Being from South Whidbey I will tell you that I can think a few times passenger ferries have been tried to Seattle waterfront and they have all failed. Victoria Clipper also used to stop in Langley that didn’t last long either. It is a nice idea but the island really won’t support it let lone want it. They have changed zoning laws to make it so no more developments or subdivisions can happen. But Langley's on the wrong side of the Island to be in the Clipper's path. What's more, times are different. Gas prices are at a record high, and there's a greater push for mass transit. |
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Post by BreannaF on May 9, 2008 4:03:58 GMT -8
What's more, times are different. Gas prices are at a record high, and there's a greater push for mass transit. That explains how I have heard in three different sources over the last two days (NPR, the end of that KOMO-TV report above, and my local fishwrap The Oregonian) of news stories telling us that one transit agency or another is considering cutting service soon because rising costs have affected their budgets to the point where they feel they must raise fares or reduce service or both. We do live in a world where government bureaucracy moves slowly. Despite a public effort to increase transit service for the common good, and despite the obvious need for an increase in services, we deal in the real world with some shortsighted people who think that cutting services will be best in the long run. Frankly, if anyone has any energy to expend on convincing our leaders to continue funding transit as a public policy choice, it would probably be best spent on maintaining or increasing service levels on existing public transportation, rather than trying to find new customers to serve. To put it another way: as much as the romantic ferry fan inside me wants to see a "Mosquito Fleet" of ferries running around everywhere, in my own microeconomic world, I would rather see my local transit agency find enough buses so that the #12 that I take to work doesn't pass me by too many times before I find one with room to stand. It's good we have so many riders now -- yeah for my neighbourhood! As long as I can still get to work in the morning. And the agency wants to cut back now! It would make more sense to try to upgrade/replace the current Keystone terminal before we try to add another one. It would make sense to get people reliably from Vashon or Kingston to work in Seattle before trying to add Port Townsend. When you have limited resources and limited political capital, it pays to attempt the possible rather than attempt what has been tried and failed. |
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Post by Kahloke on May 9, 2008 5:52:41 GMT -8
When you have limited resources and limited political capital, it pays to attempt the possible rather than attempt what has been tried and failed. Amen to that! If ANY passenger-only ferry service gets re-introduced, it should be on those heavy commuter routes such as Kingston-Seattle. As far as Whidbey Island is concerned, the inter-modal ferry terminal at Mukilteo, which will link the ferry with the Sounder commuter train (and Amtrack), is probably the best solution. Now that the money for that project has been diverted to build new ferries, I'm not sure where this project sits in terms of funding or timeline, but it's still a good idea, utilizing the resources we already have. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 9, 2008 6:13:07 GMT -8
When you have limited resources and limited political capital, it pays to attempt the possible rather than attempt what has been tried and failed. Amen to that! If ANY passenger-only ferry service gets re-introduced, it should be on those heavy commuter routes such as Kingston-Seattle. As far as Whidbey Island is concerned, the inter-modal ferry terminal at Mukilteo, which will link the ferry with the Sounder commuter train (and Amtrack), is probably the best solution. Now that the money for that project has been diverted to build new ferries, I'm not sure where this project sits in terms of funding or timeline, but it's still a good idea, utilizing the resources we already have. The thing is, Victoria-Seattle already exists in the form of the Clipper, so there would hardly be any "reintroduction" to it. As already put, it would be a matter of "hitching a ride", as well as capitalizing on the tourist potential of the Seattle-Victoria corridor. |
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Post by Barnacle on May 9, 2008 7:27:08 GMT -8
As far as Whidbey Island is concerned, the inter-modal ferry terminal at Mukilteo, which will link the ferry with the Sounder commuter train (and Amtrack), is probably the best solution. Now that the money for that project has been diverted to build new ferries, I'm not sure where this project sits in terms of funding or timeline, but it's still a good idea, utilizing the resources we already have. I'm not even sure it's still on the timeline. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 9, 2008 17:55:11 GMT -8
To put it another way: as much as the romantic ferry fan inside me wants to see a "Mosquito Fleet" of ferries running around everywhere Speaking of which, here is a map of a fantasy passenger ferry network for Washington State, which I hope something similar to becomes a reality in the long term. As you put it, more local transit support is a greater necessity, but considering the idea here is to reduce car usage and use of the big car ferries, I'd say there's some merit to the idea.  Red - Victoria-Port Townsend-Freeland-Edmonds-SeattleGreen - Kingston-SeattleBlue - Bremerton-SeattleOrange - Southworth-Vashon Island-SeattleBlack - Bellingham-East Orcas-Friday Harbor-VictoriaPurple - Friday Harbor-Lopez-Shaw-Orcas ConnectorThe red route's already been thoroughly discussed. The green, blue and orange routes would be for commuters. The black route would give the San Juan Islanders someplace to go without a car, including a direct Amtrak/Greyhound connection at Bellingham, and lure visitors over during tourist season. And the purple shuttles people between islands. The area is blessed with a great and unique natural waterway. Might as well make the best use of it. I've also made one for BC here. |
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. So if the airline is willing to take a dollar or two hit per passenger (Flight attendant 
as convenient as possible. Would eliminating Victoria for now make it more feasable? Would a stop in Kingston, as in a PT-Kingston-Seattle service make more sense as a viable commuter option? 
