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Post by WettCoast on Sept 23, 2007 17:04:58 GMT -8
yes ,that`s true we did all that and ice breakers [MARTHA L. BLACK AND THE GEORGE PEARKES]too but now the yards that those double enders and coast gaurd vessels slid into the pacific from are the site of condominium development ,i wonder how this happened given that official port policy is "marine use first" can anybody shed some light on this abrupt shift in policy?? That question needs to be directed to Gordon Campbell, Kevin 'Cadillac' Falcon, and their federal pal David Emerson.
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Post by Nucksrule on Sept 24, 2007 12:16:44 GMT -8
So to get this straight FSG was selected only on the basis...of the way the wind was blowing on the tender closing day... i am sorry but if Canadian Ship Builders could be building the Super 'C's they would be. For whatever reason...please pick one or more or make up your own...price, capacity of workforce, technical knowledge, over confidence, etc...these ships were contracted to the bidder who put the best "package" together and made sure that it wasn't a plan full of holes...now i am not saying a Canadian ship builder couldn't put a package together but somewhere in the bidding system they did not try to make sure they were the yard of 'choice' rather than a yard of 'convenience'. this note isn't directed an anyone on this forum...just my thoughts. please correct me if i am wrong, as i am not sure...isn't the 'Canadian' shipbuilder in question, WMG an American entity. Washington Marine Group's title has very little to do with the U.S. and rather is merely the last name of founder Dennis Washington, who is Canadian. I happen to know a friend of Kyle Washington's ( Dennis Washington's Son) that is where I got the information.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 24, 2007 12:43:14 GMT -8
Sorry, you're wrong. Dennis Washington is quite American; born and raised there, and on the richest Americans list. WMG is also American, although it has operations here.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 24, 2007 12:49:55 GMT -8
i will ask this question once again..................instead of just skewering b.c. ferries all the time......... why did WMG also choose to build seaspans new container ships offshore? i`ll tell you why because the asian yards are bigger,cheaper and faster just like the ones in europe, so what we should really ask ourselves is what can b.c. do to gain a significant foothold in this industry again??? It's not so much that we're skewering BC ferries... we're calling into account the credibility and responsibility of the senior levels of government responsible. It's not a question of other countries being able to build ships cheaper, it's a question of what you might call cheap-ness on the part of BC institutions. B.C. has a certain standard of living, and the reason it appears so expensive to build a ship is because the shipyard workers need to be paid a decent wage in order to meet the standard of living we all like to be at. For some reason federal subsidies to the shipyards were stopped, probably because the federal government thought they could simply take away money, which belonged to taxpayers in the first place, and not use it to pay back those same taxpayers by supporting shipyards and shipbuilding, keeping industry in B.C. and keeping our workers employed. As someone explained to me recently, whatever the cost of the Coastal ferries, it is simply nothing less than an irretrevible loss to the B.C. economy, because that full amount (what was it, I think CTV stated it was half-a-billion dollars) is money that has left B.C., and Canada in general, and is never coming back. Sure it's good for someone else's economy, but how come they aren't thinking about our economy. They're removing money from our economy, and how are we gonna get it back? What can we build or manufacter for Germany in return that will get that money back... that's what fair trade is. In the end, the ships Flensberger built are beautiful and undoubtedly high quality, but they are also supported by their own government in stark contrast to our own shipyards, so why won't our governments? That's what they are supposed to be for... to protect our interests and build and strengthen our country. What it is they are actually doing, who can say.
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 24, 2007 15:15:30 GMT -8
i will ask this question once again..................instead of just skewering b.c. ferries all the time......... why did WMG also choose to build seaspans new container ships offshore? i`ll tell you why because the asian yards are bigger,cheaper and faster just like the ones in europe, so what we should really ask ourselves is what can b.c. do to gain a significant foothold in this industry again??? It's not so much that we're skewering BC ferries... we're calling into account the credibility and responsibility of the senior levels of government responsible. It's not a question of other countries being able to build ships cheaper, it's a question of what you might call cheap-ness on the part of BC institutions. B.C. has a certain standard of living, and the reason it appears so expensive to build a ship is because the shipyard workers need to be paid a decent wage in order to meet the standard of living we all like to be at. For some reason federal subsidies to the shipyards were stopped, probably because the federal government thought they could simply take away money, which belonged to taxpayers in the first place, and not use it to pay back those same taxpayers by supporting shipyards and shipbuilding, keeping industry in B.C. and keeping our workers employed. As someone explained to me recently, whatever the cost of the Coastal ferries, it is simply nothing less than an irretrevible loss to the B.C. economy, because that full amount (what was it, I think CTV stated it was half-a-billion dollars) is money that has left B.C., and Canada in general, and is never coming back. Sure it's good for someone else's economy, but how come they aren't thinking about our economy. They're removing money from our economy, and how are we gonna get it back? What can we build or manufacter for Germany in return that will get that money back... that's what fair trade is. In the end, the ships Flensberger built are beautiful and undoubtedly high quality, but they are also supported by their own government in stark contrast to our own shipyards, so why won't our governments? That's what they are supposed to be for... to protect our interests and build and strengthen our country. What it is they are actually doing, who can say. i believe they did throw a half billion 1998dollars into the b.c. shipbuilding kitty and we ended up with fast ferries that couldn`t go fast because they used too much fuel and made tsunamis in their wake ,oh sorry i mean`t wmg got them .....don`t get me wrong nobody is rooting for the local industry more than myself, but there is no easy answer to any of these arguments because of their multi facited nature so i will agree to disagree at this point but you also make a good case
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 24, 2007 16:40:40 GMT -8
i believe they did throw a half billion 1998dollars into the b.c. shipbuilding kitty and we ended up with fast ferries that couldn`t go fast because they used too much fuel and made tsunamis in their wake ,oh sorry i mean`t wmg got them .....don`t get me wrong nobody is rooting for the local industry more than myself, but there is no easy answer to any of these arguments because of their multi facited nature so i will agree to disagree at this point but you also make a good case So, if I understand your logic, we needed to get this work done overseas so as to punish our shipyard workers because they built the fast cats? Is this correct? Would it also be okay then for someone to say that we should not have sent the work to a German yard because those yards back in the 1930's and early 1940's (i.e. 70 years ago) mostly built war ships for Hitler? I have been told that the Flensberg yard built U-boats. It was a German U-boat, built possibly at the Flensberg yard, that fired the torpedo that sank the pride of CP's Pacific Coastal fleet, the original Princess Marguerite. Quite frankly your logic escapes me?
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 24, 2007 18:31:20 GMT -8
i believe they did throw a half billion 1998dollars into the b.c. shipbuilding kitty and we ended up with fast ferries that couldn`t go fast because they used too much fuel and made tsunamis in their wake ,oh sorry i mean`t wmg got them .....don`t get me wrong nobody is rooting for the local industry more than myself, but there is no easy answer to any of these arguments because of their multi facited nature so i will agree to disagree at this point but you also make a good case So, if I understand your logic, we needed to get this work done overseas so as to punish our shipyard workers because they built the fast cats? Is this correct? Would it also be okay then for someone to say that we should not have sent the work to a German yard because those yards back in the 1930's and early 1940's (i.e. 70 years ago) mostly built war ships for Hitler? I have been told that the Flensberg yard built U-boats. It was a German U-boat, built possibly at the Flensberg yard, that fired the torpedo that sank the pride of CP's Pacific Coastal fleet, the original Princess Marguerite. Quite frankly your logic escapes me? wow.....no response to that
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 24, 2007 18:32:07 GMT -8
Good points, Mill Bay and WCK. I would just add that while many have criticized the design and concept of the 'cats, I haven't heard anyone criticize the workmanship. Give BC shipyard workers the right plan, and historically, we've built some pretty impressive vessels.
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 24, 2007 19:01:45 GMT -8
Good points, Mill Bay and WCK. I would just add that while many have criticized the design and concept of the 'cats, I haven't heard anyone criticize the workmanship. Give BC shipyard workers the right plan, and historically, we've built some pretty impressive vessels. just to clarify my post was not in any way intended to impune the good works done by b.c. yards it was just to underline the fact that while you guys were saying b.c. yards never get any money [from the government/taxpayer] that just simply wasn`t so, sorry guys i had no idea i was on the angry shipbuilders thread.....my apologies
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 24, 2007 20:47:20 GMT -8
shipchandler: I would have thought that you wouldn't mind a response to your post. Just because the response was asking for a clarification, or not in total agreement, doesn't make this the 'angry shipbuilders thread'. (Although I like that line.)
In reference to an earlier point from Mill Bay... European ship builders are no longer subsidized by their governments, at least, not overtly. They were, in the past, and that played a role in getting them as big and efficient as they are today. Shipyards in the EEC have in recent years complained loudly about tax and financing structures between Korean banks, yards and government that give those yards an unfair advantage.
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Post by shipchandler on Sept 25, 2007 7:45:51 GMT -8
shipchandler: I would have thought that you wouldn't mind a response to your post. Just because the response was asking for a clarification, or not in total agreement, doesn't make this the 'angry shipbuilders thread'. (Although I like that line.) In reference to an earlier point from Mill Bay... European ship builders are no longer subsidized by their governments, at least, not overtly. They were, in the past, and that played a role in getting them as big and efficient as they are today. Shipyards in the EEC have in recent years complained loudly about tax and financing structures between Korean banks, yards and government that give those yards an unfair advantage. of course i welcome your post, and my apology was quite sincere being new to this discussion i definately don`t want to come off as rude that`s all and as far as my facetious side, i just fancy myself as an amateur comedian, so please don`t take me too seriously, i certainly don`t ,i am also a proud BRITISH COLUMBIAN AND CANADIAN who served in our armed forces ,just so you know im not a proponent of anything that undermines our way of life...........
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Post by Hardy on Sept 30, 2007 11:21:33 GMT -8
As someone explained to me recently, whatever the cost of the Coastal ferries, it is simply nothing less than an irretrevible loss to the B.C. economy, because that full amount (what was it, I think CTV stated it was half-a-billion dollars) is money that has left B.C., and Canada in general, and is never coming back. Sure it's good for someone else's economy, but how come they aren't thinking about our economy. They're removing money from our economy, and how are we gonna get it back? What can we build or manufacter for Germany in return that will get that money back... that's what fair trade is. I take issue with this statement. While it is unlikely that Germany will be making any single (or in this case TRIPLE) purchase from BC in the near term that amounts dollar wise to the same amount as the ferries, what is to say that this will not enhance trade relations between Germany and BC? What about the soft benefits? IE: Tourism -- how many Flensberg-erites may potentially come as tourists to BC as a result of learning where BC is while the ships were built there? Remember that these things are HUGE billboards. If anyone at Tourism BC is on their game, I would hesitate to guess that they have a kiosk set up somewhere near Flensberg. (HINT: if they don't yet, then they bloody well should!) And then the hard data. Someone else posted that it would be more expensive in the long run to have the ships built offshore at a cheaper price, rather than having them built locally at a higher labour cost. But what is the HARD AND ACCURATE cost differential? This is what I would look at! As there was no competitive bid from a BC shipyard, this is a hard thing to ascertain. And, was there even a shipyard anywhere within Canada that had the capacity and manpower to bid competitively on this project? I know that we have previously debated all this, but lets look at this thing realistically. As a user of the ferry system, I fully support getting them built offshore at FSG at the cost and timetable that we are on. Could they have been built locally? Maybe. At this cost and timetable? No. Time is money, and cost is the bottom line. I would not want to pay TRIPLE the cost and wait another year for the same product. This is my opinion. I'll look forward to the differing or supporting comments of others....
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Post by queenofcowichan on Oct 3, 2007 19:36:13 GMT -8
I find it realy interesting that the 2 main ship building yards in BC are Bi-----g about the BC Ferries going off shore for shipbuilding but I wonder why they decided to build the Coastal Spirit in China. Coastal Spirit is the barge that the Seaspan Challenger pushes to and from Nanaimo everyday. In addition they have orderd other barges from China. So who are they to complain about lost shipbuilding jobs when they themselves order overseas. They are beign Hiprocrates.
Washington Marine Group owns the Vancouver and Victoria shipyards and many of the marine towing companies on the coast.
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Post by Balfour on Oct 3, 2007 19:58:46 GMT -8
In my opinion, I think the shipyards and the shipbuilder unions seem to have a "Go big or go home" mentality. They aren't sweating small things like barges, but they're getting all pissed off about the Super C situation. I think it might have to do with how BC Ferries have always been a "Political Hot Potato."
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 3, 2007 20:06:42 GMT -8
You are entirely right QueenofCowichan. Hypocrasy tends to turn a blind eye to whatever they choose to ignore that doesn't help it make its case. In the global economy we live in we can't be just stupid complainers anymore, we need to move out and carpe diem a whole lot more. I hear you Hardy. I have taken the Inside Passage in the shoulder season, or have stood in line at the rental car kiosks during the Christmas. If anyone has done so you would understand the $ that German tourists bring to BC each year. About 1/3 of a pretty full QoftN was German. And a friend who works for the parent company of Werthers Candies in Germany tells me it is cheaper for him to come to Vancouver to visit his brother and ski then go to the Alps and he has to book well in advance to get a seat. I don't claim for a minute that any of these is worth the price of the three coastals and one northern vessel. However, I know it is significant. Being in marketing myself, it will be interesting to see what media mentions it gets BC, Vancouver and the Olympics. None of the these individual things can really be measured totally but all of a sudden the sum total of them all tends to bring about a landslide response. We will only know after the fact. Building the coastals in Germany would be rediculous if it weren't clear the product that we are getting from them. The side benefit, while certainly not worth the whole exercise may be the proverbial gravy on the mashed potatoes. I am a extremely pro Canadian. I look at the label of the vegetables and fruit I buy and more often than not buy from Ontario or BC than south of the border or further away. However, I no longer drive a car manufactured in my backyard here in Ontario. My car comes from offshore. There is a reason for that and it isn't blind fashion sense or a desire to outdo the Jones. While I would love that everything I buy and use is built here, it is naiive and silly to think that I can reorder my life totally to only buy from here. However, I do try and do my bit, and even beyond my bit. As a businessman I have been fully impressed with our German friends. I don't have the full information and never will. From the information I have and what I have seen in the whole process, I cannot fault BC Ferries one bit for the decision they have made. In a perfect world it would never have been necessary to buy from Flensburger because a BC yard would have done a better job, and delivered a better product, and supported our next door neighbours in their jobs. However, that asside, as I have said before and is my rant of late, Canada get off your big toes (a subtitute body part to keep this g rated but you know exactly what I am thinking ) and do what we are capable of doing and quit living in the past, moaning and complaining. It is time we do more of what we are the best at and less of trying to be everything we are at time only capable of being second or third best at.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Oct 3, 2007 20:20:09 GMT -8
Well, since the shipyards are owned by our friend Mr. Washington, how much do they really feel compelled to keep everything in B.C.
Maybe you could say that they have only tentative connections with B.C., so they may not be so concerned with maintaining an absolute loyalty to B.C.
I don't know how much of a demand for loyalty to B.C. we want to make about the shipyards, but at least they are building something here...
I'm just not sure how I feel about a barge being named Coastal Spirit... I wonder what kind of spirit it will be...
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Post by Balfour on Oct 3, 2007 20:29:44 GMT -8
As a businessman I have been fully impressed with our German friends. I don't have the full information and never will. From the information I have and what I have seen in the whole process, I cannot fault BC Ferries one bit for the decision they have made. In a perfect world it would never have been necessary to buy from Flensburger because a BC yard would have done a better job, and delivered a better product, and supported our next door neighbours in their jobs. However, that aside, as I have said before and is my rant of late, Canada get off your big toes (a substitute body part to keep this g rated but you know exactly what I am thinking ) and do what we are capable of doing and quit living in the past, moaning and complaining. It is time we do more of what we are the best at and less of trying to be everything we are at time only capable of being second or third best at. Hear, Hear! Our ship-building industry is a thing of the past here. It's just the reality of how the world has changed in the last 3 decades thanks to yards overseas building better quality ships thus being the choice over BC shipyards.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Oct 3, 2007 20:44:10 GMT -8
Hear, Hear! Our ship-building industry is a thing of the past here. It's just the reality of how the world has changed in the last 3 decades thanks to yards overseas building better quality ships thus being the choice over BC shipyards. Don't be so fast to disregard our shipyards or their quality of work, or to bless the quality of overseas shipyards. Hear, hear! None of us doubt the quality of the new ships coming from Germany, but you might want to do a lot of research into what goes on in shipyards in other countries around the world before you give them the seal of approval... And don't believe everything that you're shown about the so called world of economics at face value... it's very hard to remain unbiased in today's world especially within the realms of media, politics and business... they all too often pursue their own agendas and make up their own realityies to suit.
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Post by Deep Boat on Oct 3, 2007 21:43:32 GMT -8
A little clarity.
WMG - or rather Seaspan is a Canadian company staffed by over 1000 Canadian employees that is owned by the Washington Corporation of Montana USA.
Seaspan has built vessels in China 10 delivered since 1998 but only when local yards were unable to deliver in the time frame required, usually because they were full of BC ferries construction.
All of the vessels, but two, built in China had significant finishing work done them in Canada, as much as 80% of total value.
all duties were paid on those hulls.
Seaspan has built over 16 new vessels for itself in Canada since 2001.
the container ship company Seaspan Corporation is an independent publicly held company. They buy off the line containerships kind of like buying a 767 you don't ask a custom builder to replicate a mass produced item.
the only group making statements about the 3 FSG ferries is the local shipbuilding unions. Last time I checked they don't speak for the compaines where their members work.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 4, 2007 6:17:38 GMT -8
Thanks Deepboat that is good to know your insights are good and consider keeping on joining us here or becoming a member. And a good reminder about the difference between union and management statements.
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Post by Queen of Vancouver on Oct 4, 2007 17:59:43 GMT -8
Yes thanks Deepboat.
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Post by shipchandler on Oct 4, 2007 18:08:58 GMT -8
A little clarity. WMG - or rather Seaspan is a Canadian company staffed by over 1000 Canadian employees that is owned by the Washington Corporation of Montana USA. Seaspan has built vessels in China 10 delivered since 1998 but only when local yards were unable to deliver in the time frame required, usually because they were full of BC ferries construction. All of the vessels, but two, built in China had significant finishing work done them in Canada, as much as 80% of total value. all duties were paid on those hulls. Seaspan has built over 16 new vessels for itself in Canada since 2001. the container ship company Seaspan Corporation is an independent publicly held company. They buy off the line containerships kind of like buying a 767 you don't ask a custom builder to replicate a mass produced item. the only group making statements about the 3 FSG ferries is the local shipbuilding unions. Last time I checked they don't speak for the compaines where their members work. "deepboat" lol that`s funny, i think we should all wish washington marine group well in trying to win the bid for the navy`s new strategic sealifter program which........ironically they are up against pks[peter kiewit and sons] who would build it in an east coast [newfoundland]yard ,i say ironically because pks is currently building the new sea to sky hwy and getting 600 million of our b.c. taxdollars and then bidding against our yards ,politics sigh.......... - - - - - - - - Moderator Note: Edited for fixing broken quotation tags.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 4, 2007 20:04:20 GMT -8
re "Deep Boat"
I'm just acknowledging the clever guest nickname. ;D Very good name for an informant of shipyard news.
Even if it wasn't intentional, it's still funny. ....at least to anyone alive between 1972 and 1974....
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 5, 2007 6:37:58 GMT -8
I wasn't going to comment Flug because I didn't want to date myself. And as well I didn't feel like explaining who Richard Nixon was .
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Oct 5, 2007 7:28:23 GMT -8
I wasn't going to comment Flug because I didn't want to date myself. And as well I didn't feel like explaining who Richard Nixon was . Richard who??? ;D
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