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Post by Starsteward on Mar 13, 2020 10:55:14 GMT -8
In an attempt to curtain the spread of COVID-19, the Federal Government of Canada has thrown a real hay-maker into the mix regarding the Maritime Cruise Travel schedule,banning all cruise ships from entering Canadian ports for the next 3 months!
For the Port of Vancouver this means that the cruise ship season which was to begin April 2, 2020 with the arrival of the 'Grand Princess' is now suspended until July 1, 2020 The number of cruise ships destined to call at the Port of Vancouver for these three months are as follows: April:15 vessels May:56 vessels June:54 vessels Total of 125 lost sailings for the first half of the 2020 Cruise season! The revenue generated per ship visit is often estimated at One Million Dollars. And having followed this industry closely for many years, I believe those figures to be generally quite accurate.
The City of Victoria voted this past week to ban vessels from using the facilities at Ogden Point. All well and good except they have no power to do so as that power rests with Transport Canada. With the announcement today by the Federal Government of Canada, the good citizens of Victoria will now reap the loss of countless ship visits for the next three months. For the Ports of Vancouver, Victoria and elsewhere the loss of this vessel traffic will be felt throughout all sectors of the economy. This shut-down will of course bear directly on the traffic to the State of Alaska and it remains to be seen if that State makes any concessions for the vessels that would have been coming their way.
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Post by WettCoast on Mar 13, 2020 13:31:35 GMT -8
In an attempt to curtain the spread of COVID-19, the Federal Government of Canada has thrown a real hay-maker into the mix regarding the Maritime Cruise Travel schedule,banning all cruise ships from entering Canadian ports for the next 3 months! This will be a huge hit not only to the cruise ship lines, but also the tourism industry along the BC / Alaska coast. However it is an expected move, and as far as I can see necessary. Add to that the self-imposed exile of Princess Cruises already announced a few days ago.
Question: Was Princess Cruises the only member of the Carnival 'family' to go for the self imposed exile.
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Post by Starsteward on Mar 13, 2020 14:01:09 GMT -8
In an attempt to curtain the spread of COVID-19, the Federal Government of Canada has thrown a real hay-maker into the mix regarding the Maritime Cruise Travel schedule,banning all cruise ships from entering Canadian ports for the next 3 months! This will be a huge hit not only to the cruise ship lines, but also the tourism industry along the BC / Alaska coast. However it is an expected move, and as far as I can see necessary. Add to that the self-imposed exile of Princess Cruises already announced a few days ago.
Question: Was Princess Princess the only member of the Carnival 'family' to go for the self imposed exile.
To the best of my knowledge they were the only ones of the 'C' family to 'self-isolate', but another company, Viking River Cruises along with its new cruise ship are also pulling the plug for the foreseeable future. In my total of 125 cruise ships barred from the Port of Vancouver, that did include the first 5 or so Princess beauties.
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Post by Kahloke on Mar 13, 2020 15:48:05 GMT -8
I moved the 3 posts above into this thread - seems like a better place for this discussion.
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grk
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Post by grk on Mar 13, 2020 17:35:46 GMT -8
Other Carnival Corporation fleets to tie up are: Aida and Costa; although Holland America, Cunard and P & O are still sailing. Norwegian Holding have cancelled all sailing for their 3 brands; Norwegian, Oceania and Regent. Royal Caribbean International have done the same with Royal Caribbean and Celebrity, although their European brands continue to sail as does Azamara and Silver Seas. Fred Olson, Cruise and Maritime Voyages have also stopped sailing. There are other fleets, but they escape my mind.
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Post by northwesterner on Mar 13, 2020 19:06:40 GMT -8
In an attempt to curtain the spread of COVID-19, the Federal Government of Canada has thrown a real hay-maker into the mix regarding the Maritime Cruise Travel schedule,banning all cruise ships from entering Canadian ports for the next 3 months! This will be a huge hit not only to the cruise ship lines, but also the tourism industry along the BC / Alaska coast. However it is an expected move, and as far as I can see necessary. Add to that the self-imposed exile of Princess Cruises already announced a few days ago.
Question: Was Princess Cruises the only member of the Carnival 'family' to go for the self imposed exile.
Holland America has now tied their ships up, voluntarily.
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Post by northwesterner on Apr 14, 2020 21:39:59 GMT -8
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Apr 14, 2020 21:58:04 GMT -8
I don't have any personal knowledge, but from what I've read and heard, many Alaskans have mixed feelings about the hordes of cruise ship visitors that inundate their communities each season. But this hit to the economy and individual employment might refocus some folk's perspectives. Every day, you read of ways this health crisis is impacting every sector of our political, social, and economic lives. Very unsettling. It just doesn't stop.
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Post by northwesterner on Apr 14, 2020 23:37:05 GMT -8
I don't have any personal knowledge, but from what I've read and heard, many Alaskans have mixed feelings about the hordes of cruise ship visitors that inundate their communities each season. But this hit to the economy and individual employment might refocus some folk's perspectives. Every day, you read of ways this health crisis is impacting every sector of our political, social, and economic lives. Very unsettling. It just doesn't stop. Correct. The economic impacts are massive, and will be extremely rough for specific sectors of the economy. Think about Vancouver and Victoria. How many hotel rooms will be empty, how many security guards at the pier will be looking for work, how many charter bus companies will need to make their lease payments with no cruise ship transfers to earn the revenue? These numbers are eye popping. Perhaps Transport Canada made the right decision with the blanket cruise ship ban through the end of June. Perhaps they didn't. I don't want to talk about the politics of the cruise industry specifically here so let me make the next comments more general. There is an absolute need right now to stop this virus in its tracks. And the best way we can do that, absent a vaccine, anti-virals, or even a reliable, rapid antibody test, is through social distancing and quarantine. It's awful. On every level. At least in the US, I've been relieved to see a conversation - led by America's odd couple - Cuomo & Trump - about getting as much of the economy back open as possible. We cannot sustain our lives if the vast majority of the population has to stay in lock down for 12-14 months, as some have suggested. To be honest, I don't know that we can make it another six weeks. Because the economic impacts - as outlined in that article - are just so massive. And that article was just looking at the impacts of a tiny segment of the broader global economy. This is where political leadership with a heavy dose of pragmatism is needed right now. We have to find a way, to get as much of the economy open, at the lowest possible risk, as soon as we can. And that absolutely has to become the priority - really in parallel with the efforts to manage the healthcare system. In the US we have Trump, obviously, but also menagerie of other governors of a diversity of political backgrounds - from Cuomo in New York to Abbott in Texas, looking into how we can get as much open, and operating, as soon as possible. And we have other leaders, such as my governor here in California, making statements that it's going to be a long time before we can reopen the economy. At least Gov. Newsom put out six benchmarks he wants to see fulfilled before he lifts the stay at home ban. Unfortunately, the bar is pretty high for a couple of them, and he didn't leave much room for nuance. Trudeau made similar statements earlier today in regards to Canada. Borders closed, economy shut down, we're going to have to ride this out, possibly until there is a vaccine. Clearly we're going to see what works play out in real time for us. I just hope we can find something that is tolerable from both an economic and public health perspective. We can't focus on one at the expense of the other.
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Post by Starsteward on Apr 17, 2020 7:48:36 GMT -8
With the recent announcement by Princess Cruises and Holland America, cancelling ALL 2020 sailings to Alaska, this will mean 145 sailing departures from the Port of Vancouver this Summer. As many analysts state, each sailing generates in the neighbourhood of One to Three Million dollars. Therefore the loss to the port just with those 2 companies cancelling their entire cruise seasons means that we will loose a minimum of $145 million dollars to the high end of $425 million dollars! Given that most major airlines have parked up the majority of their fleets, getting tourists to cruise-ship destinations, even with some sort of controlled roll-out, I would humbly suggest that all of us cruise ship enthusiasts on the West Coast from California to Alaska will not be shooting any photos or videos of our favourite vessels this year. I believe the airline industry will rebound at a faster pace than will the cruise industry. With unemployment in both the U.S.A., Canada and elsewhere, reaching levels we haven't seen since the great depression, I doubt there is going to be an excess of 'holiday money' kicking about in many households. Smaller cruise ships might fare somewhat better, (that would by my choice), as the horror stories emanating from vessels carrying 3-4 thousand passengers and crew are not going to be attractive for some time to come. (I wonder if the cruise lines that went gung-ho into building these mammoth vessels are now undergoing a severe case of 'second-thoughts')? With the State of Alaska being the end-point of most Western North American Summer cruise travel, they find themselves in a real catch 'twenty-two' as the lose of jobs/income is a major economic blow but those good folks, I would suspect are scared to death of having the hundreds of thousands of tourists descending onto their shores when we have no clear idea of; if, when, or how, this global pandemic will be brought to its' knees! As 'Northwesterner' has stated above my posting, one of the glimmers of hope for the entire world-wide tourism industry will be when there is a truly effective vaccine to ensure the health and safety of, well, The World! Stay safe everyone.
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Post by Dane on Apr 19, 2020 17:03:16 GMT -8
Interesting article here: www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-carnival-cruise-coronavirus/Worth a read, IMO, if you have some time. I've cruised in the past, and until about a month ago I assumed I would cruise in the future. I loved that you could just turn your brain off and enjoy a peaceful vacation, often in locations where work couldn't get in touch with me with the "oh just one question" phone calls I am inevitably privy too. Now, I don't see a future where I am willing to put my safety into the industry's hands. But the conduct of the big cruise lines, predominately but not exclusively owned by Carnival, at the outset of the pandemic showed an outrageous disconnect from the wellbeing of the customers, and maybe even more importantly the communities they docked in. Most all large companies do things that border on the unethical, sadly that's a norm; Carnivals group of companies lied about Covid positivity, sailed when it was obviously unsafe, and kept sailing when it was demonstrably identified as a bad idea - from that, in their own words, a humanitarian crisis was created when they couldn't dock their ships that clearly shouldn't have been sailing. And from a business side, the flags of convenience may finally come and create significant harm financially. Cruise companies are explicitly written out of aid packages most importantly in the USA but also in Europe. Employees are, literally, stranded on ships. Carnival has taken out a sizable loan to maintain some reasonable liquidity but at essentially guaranteed bankruptcy if ships aren't generating revenue in the next six to nine months. Without Covid-19 either dying out on its own, which doesn't seem to be on the table? or a vaccine, it makes the future of the industry seem very murky. At least in its present state.
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Post by Kahloke on Apr 19, 2020 17:48:23 GMT -8
Interesting article here: www.bloomberg.com/features/2020-carnival-cruise-coronavirus/Worth a read, IMO, if you have some time. I've cruised in the past, and until about a month ago I assumed I would cruise in the future. I loved that you could just turn your brain off and enjoy a peaceful vacation, often in locations where work couldn't get in touch with me with the "oh just one question" phone calls I am inevitably privy too. Now, I don't see a future where I am willing to put my safety into the industry's hands. But the conduct of the big cruise lines, predominately but not exclusively owned by Carnival, at the outset of the pandemic showed an outrageous disconnect from the wellbeing of the customers, and maybe even more importantly the communities they docked in. Most all large companies do things that border on the unethical, sadly that's a norm; Carnivals group of companies lied about Covid positivity, sailed when it was obviously unsafe, and kept sailing when it was demonstrably identified as a bad idea - from that, in their own words, a humanitarian crisis was created when they couldn't dock their ships that clearly shouldn't have been sailing. And from a business side, the flags of convenience may finally come and create significant harm financially. Cruise companies are explicitly written out of aid packages most importantly in the USA but also in Europe. Employees are, literally, stranded on ships. Carnival has taken out a sizable loan to maintain some reasonable liquidity but at essentially guaranteed bankruptcy if ships aren't generating revenue in the next six to nine months. Without Covid-19 either dying out on its own, which doesn't seem to be on the table? or a vaccine, it makes the future of the industry seem very murky. At least in its present state. I wish I could say I am sympathetic to the cruise ship companies, but truthfully, I am pretty ambivalent about their situation. I do feel for the employees, especially the hospitality staff from other nations whose families back in their home countries greatly depend on their income. That puts me in a bit of a dilemma, because I agree with the US and European countries that cruise companies should not receive aid packages. There are too few resources to go around, and cruise companies, in my opinion, are justifiably at the bottom of the list. The people, on the other hand, do need help, so how do you achieve that? On another note, I was in San Francisco when Grand Princess departed for Hawaii. We were walking back to the Fisherman's Wharf area from Golden Gate Bridge when she sailed past on her way out to sea. We met a couple from Ottawa at the hotel we were staying at in SF who were spending a few days in the city before boarding Grand Princess to go to Hawaii. I wonder how they made out, and if they got COVID or not. Scary stuff.
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Post by Starsteward on Apr 20, 2020 11:21:10 GMT -8
For some time now, local economies have enjoyed the economic boom created by the 'Cruise Industry'! We have built new berthing facilities to dock and replenish these glorified pleasure palaces, created thousands of jobs in shore-based industries, and businesses that have meant good times and good fortune for thousands of folks working in our cities! Woo Hoo!, we have all loudly proclaimed! The very sad fact is that we have been the recipients of the fruits of a very dark and frankly evil industry that is committed to one and only one principal; "PROFIT AT ALL COSTS"! How so one may ask? Many of our learned members will be aware of the term, 'Flags of Convenience'. If there a those within our membership who are unfamiliar with this term, now is the time to do some research! Operating deep-sea vessels under 'flags of convenience' does not only apply to the cruise industry but to all maritime industries. In all areas of maritime industry, there are companies operating vessels registered in countries that one could be excused for having to 'Google' the whereabouts of some of these nations. Many of which are NOT maritime countries, meaning that they are 'landlocked' countries. So, what's all the fuss about with sailing a vessel under a so-called flag of convenience? (because there's a reason it's called a "convenience"). Seamen who toil aboard any deep-sea vessel are governed by the laws of the countries in which a companies' vessel are registered. Human rights, Labour laws: working conditions, time-length of contracts, living accomodations/conditions, pay scales, holiday entitlements, health and sickness benefits, job training, and above all, recourse for crew-members to settle grievances that arise in the work-place. In many of these so-called 'flag of convenience' countries, there are no labour unions that we who live in most of the, I'll call them collectively as the G-20 countries of the world, often take as a matter of every-day practice. Maritime unions/labour laws in the U.S.A. and Canada for example are extremely vigilant in providing safe and equitable working environments, and we should be damn thankful that we prosper under those conditions. At a time when many of us need to revise our free-time activities, I suggest isolating at ones' computer, researching: 1) Vessel registry: Flags of Convenience: The pros and cons, not only in nautical operations/dollars and cents, but also in 'Human terms'? 2) Check out your local port pilotage registries and see where vessels currently at anchor awaiting/departing berths are registered. Question: Why do some G-20 country companies register some of their vessels in their home countries and some vessels abroad in non G-20 countries? 3) Peruse cruise industry company fleets and see what countries in which they register their vessels.(There will be some interesting discoveries). Why? 4) Source your local services like Missions to Seamen, Flying Angel organizations etc. and when social conditions allow, pay a visit to them. Seamen from all parts of the world are eager to chat with folks who wish to engage with them, especially fellow countrymen. If they have time, many crew members would appreciate going for a tour of your local area or taking them to a local ethic shop where they can purchase ethnic goodies to take back aboard. A visit to businesses where good-quality clothing at reasonable prices is available is always a hit with seamen. There's another retail outlet that seamen love to visit to pick up all manner of 'stuff', including reasonably priced souvenirs of your country/city etc. The 'Dollar-stores'! You will be deified if you take them on such a visit. Seamen are notorious collectors of travel memorabilia. I too am un-ashamedly guilty. To render a guilty or non-guilty verdict on the current practices of the cruise industry, one might be best to understand the human costs of this glitz and glamour industry. Now would be as good a time as ever to re-examine the human costs of all facets of maritime trade eh?
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Post by Starsteward on Apr 22, 2020 10:57:17 GMT -8
Does anyone have any further news of cruise ships still wandering the seas looking for a port of call that will allow them to dock, or have all vessels been accounted for? Further scanning of the world-wide cruise industry would appear to be headed for a very prolonged shut-down which leads one to wonder which companies may end up ceasing operations entirely.
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Post by northwesterner on May 14, 2020 19:59:34 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2020 10:46:03 GMT -8
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Post by Starsteward on Jun 20, 2020 12:17:58 GMT -8
Those vessels Carnival is expected to jettison from their fleet are approximately 30 years old or thereabouts. Time really does fly as it seems it wasn't that long ago that they were just coming into service. Cruise lines that have gigantic-sized vessels under construction must be wondering how they are going to market 4000+ passenger vessels to the public as we slowly inch our way back into the post-pandemic cruise era. Might some cruise lines be considering utilizing smaller capacity vessels? It is going to be extremely interesting to see how the general public reacts to the reopening of the cruise industry after all the rather horrific tales we've heard about the treatment of passengers when this whole pandemic first broke onto the world stage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 12:40:11 GMT -8
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Post by Starsteward on Jun 20, 2020 15:36:21 GMT -8
A very interesting article to say the least. Noted that the article was dated May 30th, I concur with the writer's findings that we are at our peril in opening up our borders to ALL forms of travel, both within their borders but also opening our borders to 'the world' as well. The writer's Australian proposal is more 'do-able' given that Australia and New Zealand are basically geographically separated from the rest of the world and could
establish a nationalized cruise industry, given that cruise vessels of appropriate size and amenities be sourced from either country. Perhaps both national governments could obtain vessels that companies such as the Carnival corporation is looking to delete from their inventory but whether or not either government would, or has the financial capacity to establish new cruise line companies would be purely speculative at this point given the financial strain, on National budgets this pandemic has created in both countries. The writer's proposal of an all Australian registered, crewed, and subject to Australian labour codes while commendable, would raise the cost of cruising immensely, just as it would should a similar proposal be contemplated in Canada or the U.S.A. There is a reason vessels of all purposes, are operated under the 'flags of convenience' and I have written previously in this Forum as to the pitiful conditions many seafarers live and die whilst employed deep-sea. Seafarers in Canada are well protected by maritime and federal regulations, however, there is no escaping the fact that the 'cost of doing business' in Canada is excessively higher than that of many companies operating under 'flags of convenience'. The American shipping industry which employs many thousands of seamen, is also tightly regulated and oversight is highly regulated and enforced. There again, costs of doing business, especially in the cruise industry, limits that industry to localized cruising and there is also the debate as to the 'benefits' or not of the 'Jones Act'. I can foresee an opening of the cruise industry in the U.S. (to some limited degree), once the levels of infections of the COVID-19 virus have been brought under control. Given the 'open it up at all costs' stance of the Trump administration, I fear that many countries including Canada will not be opening our borders to cruise ships any time soon. But I offer a glimmer of hope for the international cruise industry in terms of visiting Canada. Let's take Carnival Cruise Lines for example. Under their corporate umbrella, they operate the venerable Holland America Line which continues to register ALL their vessels in Rotterdam, of course under the flag of the Netherlands. Under strict oversight by Transport Canada, companies such as HAL could be granted special operating permits in Canadian waters. The same might also apply to London-registered vessels of the Cunard Line. Vessels operating under the flags of Norway, Denmark, Sweden and also Finland would also be permitted to operate with generous amounts of Canadian oversight. Historically, we did have a Canadian passenger/cruise industry and if it existed today we could really open up some travel possibilities on both our coasts, regulated by both federal and provincial edicts. But then again, I know I'm only dreaming.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 16:52:51 GMT -8
Even though I agree with the writer's proposal, I think the governments of all countries should come together and create a new organization such as we do with NATO and WHO for example to create protocal as to address the needs of cruise ship passengers and arranging for their quick and safe transportation to their countries. And to manage what to do with all of these ships stuck out at sea, and their crews.
Under this new organization nations can come up with a new set of Industry wide rules and regulations that all ships must adhere to. If a cruise line fails to meet up to these requirements they could be banned from entering any country.
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Post by Starsteward on Jun 22, 2020 14:17:04 GMT -8
Even though I agree with the writer's proposal, I think the governments of all countries should come together and create a new organization such as we do with NATO and WHO for example to create protocal as to address the needs of cruise ship passengers and arranging for their quick and safe transportation to their countries. And to manage what to do with all of these ships stuck out at sea, and their crews. Under this new organization nations can come up with a new set of Industry wide rules and regulations that all ships must adhere to. If a cruise line fails to meet up to these requirements they could be banned from entering any country. I commend your ambitious and well-intentioned proposal for the establishment of such an organization, however I wouldn't bet anything substantial on that concept becoming a reality any time soon. A less complicated model might be to mandate that cruise line companies who operate fleets under the 'flags-of convenience' countries be denied entry into U.S. and Canadian ports of call. Imagine the riotous scenes in the boardrooms of many of the existing cruise line companies when they sat to discuss such an edict from our respective governments! Oh but to be a fly on the wall! Bluntly, if governments of the so-called 'developed world' were to exercise their powers to protect and enhance the human rights of all sea-farers, we could weed-out those companies who profit from unscrupulous human rights practices. In a re-organization of exiting fleets, what would the Carnival Corporation do with companies such as Holland-America Lines which register all their vessels in the Netherlands port city of Rotterdam.?
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Post by SS San Mateo on Jul 17, 2020 9:52:22 GMT -8
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Post by roeco on Sept 20, 2020 18:07:43 GMT -8
In recent Cruise News...Carnival has sold the following Ships..and remember Carnival owns 105 ships. Sold for Scrap from Costa; Costa Victoria, From Carnival Carnival Fantasty,Imagination,Inspiration. The Fascination has been sold to but no official word if for scrap as its currently idle in Cadiz Spain where its been since end July. Also for further service is Amstredam and Rotterdam,sold to Fred Olsen UK. Venndam and Maasdam sold to Seajets of Greece. Oceana of P&O sold to Seajets of Greece,sisters Sun and Sea Princess)from Princess Cruises)...Sun rumored to be sold to Peaceboat of Japan. Two other Costa Ships Mediterranea and Atlantica will transfer to Costas new division in China. Plus 2 ships transferred to P&O Australia. Theirs still Pacific Aria and Pacific Dawn whos futures are unkonwn too (they were in Australia) and were supposed to go to CMV which went bankrupt.
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Post by roeco on Sept 20, 2020 18:13:29 GMT -8
In other Cruise news. The MS Soverign and MS Monarch (both former RCCL) ships were sold by RCCl after the bankruptcy of Pullmantur (Royal Caribbean) owned the ships) Both were sold for scrap and are currently at Aliaga Turkey being scrapped, as well Horizon also part of pullmantur currently laid up in Eleusis Greece will be scrapped in the coming months as well as the Marella Celebration (former Thompson Celebration) former owned by Holland America.Their are many other ships with uncertain futures also as the entire fleen of CMV of England is currently laid up in Britain (due to CMV bankruptcy).
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Post by roeco on Sept 20, 2020 18:19:52 GMT -8
With the recent announcement by Princess Cruises and Holland America, cancelling ALL 2020 sailings to Alaska, this will mean 145 sailing departures from the Port of Vancouver this Summer. As many analysts state, each sailing generates in the neighbourhood of One to Three Million dollars. Therefore the loss to the port just with those 2 companies cancelling their entire cruise seasons means that we will loose a minimum of $145 million dollars to the high end of $425 million dollars! Given that most major airlines have parked up the majority of their fleets, getting tourists to cruise-ship destinations, even with some sort of controlled roll-out, I would humbly suggest that all of us cruise ship enthusiasts on the West Coast from California to Alaska will not be shooting any photos or videos of our favourite vessels this year. I believe the airline industry will rebound at a faster pace than will the cruise industry. With unemployment in both the U.S.A., Canada and elsewhere, reaching levels we haven't seen since the great depression, I doubt there is going to be an excess of 'holiday money' kicking about in many households. Smaller cruise ships might fare somewhat better, (that would by my choice), as the horror stories emanating from vessels carrying 3-4 thousand passengers and crew are not going to be attractive for some time to come. (I wonder if the cruise lines that went gung-ho into building these mammoth vessels are now undergoing a severe case of 'second-thoughts')? With the State of Alaska being the end-point of most Western North American Summer cruise travel, they find themselves in a real catch 'twenty-two' as the lose of jobs/income is a major economic blow but those good folks, I would suspect are scared to death of having the hundreds of thousands of tourists descending onto their shores when we have no clear idea of; if, when, or how, this global pandemic will be brought to its' knees! As 'Northwesterner' has stated above my posting, one of the glimmers of hope for the entire world-wide tourism industry will be when there is a truly effective vaccine to ensure the health and safety of, well, The World! Stay safe everyone. It surely affected the Carnival Group which is the largest player in Alaska both land and sea. With Carnival,Holland America and Princess and their related assets.
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