|
Post by herrbrinkmann on Mar 9, 2009 21:31:17 GMT -8
I haven´t read all the comments, but most and I want to add some thoughts. In the shipyard industry you do not sell a vessel because you have a fancy website, red balloons on a launching and some videos. Besides all the other "advertisement", when we offer ships or do a project, it is the hard fact, which make us sell a vessel. A colourful image, a 3D animation helps to do the job or can speed it up but it is not decided acc. "pictures". FSG was well known around RORO-specialists around the world but not in the "ferry community". We are glad, that we were able to go into this segment and will try to build more ferries.
Buider´s logo: If you buy a car, you have the builder´s logo in the front and on the aft - why not have it on a ship also. We were three persons having the idea to put the builders logo on the vessel. it was one from project dept, one from outfitting and myself. I saw it on an Aker-built cruise liner in Stockholm/Sweden three years ago. This logo should not be understood as an affront against BC shipbuilders but as to show the pride of FSG workers - and yes - it is something very special at FSG to work. I am here since Oct. 2000 and there was no single hour I did not like it. First of all it is the size - you are able to get to know most of the stuff in due time- then it is the hierachy. Everybody only has three bosses above. Every single persons has a quite big possible range of making decisions. That is motivating and makes you like your work instead of only doing what beeing told. Well, come here and visit us ;-) Free yard tour guaranteed!
Nevertheless, to come back to the thread - if someone wants to paint it over - paint it over. But please grind the weld marks before, otherwise you might see it though painted ;-)
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 9, 2009 21:57:06 GMT -8
I won't say every union is in the position to promote themselves in the eyes of the public, but many are and still don't. I look at the Philadelphia Carpenters Union as a good example. Failure to promote themselves and their members as equal hire/equal opportunity has cost the union one of the biggest ongoing projects in the city. So you know, their "slush" fund is valued in the hundreds of millions and they are not afraid to dip into it to win jobs...and they still fail to promote themselves. As for worrying about what the media says, it is no issue down here for those unions wishing to show their clout. US union have been known to seriously swing voting blocks in favour of the candidate of their choice...not something to scoff at. The boogeyman of union omnipotence is a canard best left to charlatans like Bull O'Reilly and Boss Limbaugh. I don't know about your tale of unions with the riches of Croesus, but a mere 12% of American workers are unionized, and many organized working people today are engaged in a downhill race to give back benefits and wages before the pink slips arrive. Most unions have little power to elect anyone outside of very local officials, and the notion of our shipyard workers playing a pivotal role in any election here is laughable. Your comments say that the situation in the industry is inevitable, couldn't have been influenced, and won't ever change. I didn't say that at all. Present conditions were not inevitable; they came about because of a combination of political decisions, business mindset on the part of the yards, and the increased efficiencies of government supported yards in Europe and Asia . Things most certainly could have been influenced, by politicians who saw the value of strengthening the industry, and by a corporate culture that was committed to renewing and improving their capacity to build. BC Ferries needs a lot of new boats in the next ten or fifteen years, and it's conceivable that a change of government in Victoria may bring a change in the mindset, and even the structure, of BC Ferries. One can hope. The shipyard workers have been consistent over the years in arguing articulately for a build in BC program. Too bad if some people are tired of hearing them. There seems to be the rather odd notion that the union should do the industry's marketing for them, which is a problem for two reasons; one, that the union doesn't have the resources or the public standing to really accomplish much in that regard, and secondly, the industry doesn't seem seriously committed to doing any more than bid for the secondary work. If WMG were to get serious about snaring the big jobs, I don't think anyone should assume that the union would not play a constructive role in helping make that a reality. Without corporate commitment, and a change in government, all this talk about union attitude seems entirely irrelevant.
|
|
D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
|
Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 10, 2009 5:50:39 GMT -8
I won't say every union is in the position to promote themselves in the eyes of the public, but many are and still don't. I look at the Philadelphia Carpenters Union as a good example. Failure to promote themselves and their members as equal hire/equal opportunity has cost the union one of the biggest ongoing projects in the city. So you know, their "slush" fund is valued in the hundreds of millions and they are not afraid to dip into it to win jobs...and they still fail to promote themselves. As for worrying about what the media says, it is no issue down here for those unions wishing to show their clout. US union have been known to seriously swing voting blocks in favour of the candidate of their choice...not something to scoff at. The boogeyman of union omnipotence is a canard best left to charlatans like Bull O'Reilly and Boss Limbaugh. I don't know about your tale of unions with the riches of Croesus, but a mere 12% of American workers are unionized, and many organized working people today are engaged in a downhill race to give back benefits and wages before the pink slips arrive. Most unions have little power to elect anyone outside of very local officials, and the notion of our shipyard workers playing a pivotal role in any election here is laughable. Sorry everyone, but some of the comments made above need to be addressed. [off topic rant] My response to the obvious attack...in the correct thread[/rant] Now back to your regularly scheduled program
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 10, 2009 6:34:19 GMT -8
To borrow some recently used words: "Laughable" and "entirely irrelevant".
The notion that the FSG logo should be painted-over simply because the BC built ships didn't have a similar logo is to me laughable and entirely irrelevant.
(wow, it feels good to use such absolute words.....I will use these more often ;D ).
Good on FSG for being proud of their work. Nothing prevented the BC Yards from doing the same on their builds. Sure, the BC Ferry company/crown-corp could have had a policy to remove them (maybe they do now?), but then the displayed logo would have simply been short-lived, just like the FSG logo.
I thought the logo was a great idea. The BC Ferry company doesn't have to accept it, but it makes its point even if it is short-lived.
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 10, 2009 7:09:02 GMT -8
To borrow some recently used words: "Laughable" and "entirely irrelevant". (wow, it feels good to use such absolute words.....I will use these more often ;D ). Wow first the overnight conversion into a digital photohound and now the abolutes movement. Times they are a changin.
|
|
D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
|
Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 10, 2009 7:25:21 GMT -8
To borrow some recently used words: "Laughable" and "entirely irrelevant". (wow, it feels good to use such absolute words.....I will use these more often ;D ). Wow first the overnight conversion into a digital photohound and now the abolutes movement. Times they are a changin. lol...and they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 10, 2009 11:25:34 GMT -8
To borrow some recently used words: "Laughable" and "entirely irrelevant". (wow, it feels good to use such absolute words.....I will use these more often ;D ). Wow first the overnight conversion into a digital photohound and now the abolutes movement. Times they are a changin. I'm out of control. ;D I expect that an intervention-meeting will be planned for me soon. In my office work and style, I may want to consider transitioning from being a "Les Nesman" to being a "Herb Tarlick". I'll let you know how it goes.
|
|
|
Post by Balfour on Mar 10, 2009 11:51:04 GMT -8
Wow first the overnight conversion into a digital photohound and now the abolutes movement. Times they are a changin. I'm out of control. ;D I expect that an intervention-meeting will be planned for me soon. In my office work and style, I may want to consider transitioning from being a "Les Nesman" to being a "Herb Tarlick". I'll let you know how it goes. Hey Flugel, John told me he wanted to have a word with you in his office... ;D ;D ;D
|
|
D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
|
Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 10, 2009 11:52:32 GMT -8
Wow first the overnight conversion into a digital photohound and now the abolutes movement. Times they are a changin. I'm out of control. ;D I expect that an intervention-meeting will be planned for me soon. In my office work and style, I may want to consider transitioning from being a "Les Nesman" to being a "Herb Tarlick". I'll let you know how it goes. I would have taken you for a Barney Fife type given your horny nature... ;D
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 10, 2009 16:06:18 GMT -8
In the shipyard industry you do not sell a vessel because you have a fancy website, red balloons on a launching and some videos. Besides all the other "advertisement", when we offer ships or do a project, it is the hard fact, which make us sell a vessel. A colourful image, a 3D animation helps to do the job or can speed it up but it is not decided acc. "pictures". FSG was well known around RORO-specialists around the world but not in the "ferry community". We are glad, that we were able to go into this segment and will try to build more ferries. Straight from the horse's mouth. (An English expression, Markus, meaning, approximately, the real deal from the right source.) And I expect that what work the local yards get, they get on the strength of their past work, and their reputation within the industry. Builder´s logo: If you buy a car, you have the builder´s logo in the front and on the aft - why not have it on a ship also. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Flensburger putting their name prominently on a ship they've built, and if we decide to continue the tradition of builder's logos not being on the side of our ferries, there's nothing wrong with that, either. Although, if we did have to build ferries overseas, Flensburger appears to have been an excellent choice.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 11, 2009 11:59:27 GMT -8
Great Caesar's Ghost, a simple fun betting pool as to when a manfacturer's logo would be painted over then turns over to the endless debate of "build 'em here, not there" that started when the initial announcement of FSG being the winner of the project to build the ferries? How long is this debate regarding local shipyards and ferries going to go on. It's going around and around like a propeller on a Merc outboard. Glad you were able to resist the temptation to get into the argument, Paul.
|
|
ProudCanuck
Chief Steward
Champ Car - Gone, but not forgotten!
Posts: 242
|
Post by ProudCanuck on Mar 11, 2009 12:10:55 GMT -8
Same thing can be said for the transportation facilities around here - very little was done from c. 1987 to now, the last large road project around here was the Alex Fraser Bridge and Highway 91, but even Highway 91 (Annacis and Richmond highways) were not completely finished until two years ago when an intersection in Queenborough was replaced with an overpass. Just a quick correction Paul... Hwy 91 is not complete. The interchange upgrade that the was to occur at 72nd Ave was cancelled. This was part of the Border Infastructure Program. The information I received from the BIP management team said it was cancelled due to funding.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 11, 2009 18:48:00 GMT -8
How long is this debate regarding local shipyards and ferries going to go on. It's going around and around like a propeller on a Merc outboard. Probably a lot of people who are tired of the topic have asked this question. Why do we keep talking about this stuff? For me, there's three reasons. One, I'm as interested in all the issues around the ferry world as I am in the boats and the fan stuff itself. The politics, the history, the social aspects, some aspects of the economics... I find it intriguing. Secondly, this whole issue hasn't necessarily been decided. Paul likes to say "Face the facts", when in 'fact' he's only offering an opinion (and I admit to a similar tendency to make flat, declarative assertions when I'm talking about something I feel strongly about), but a change in government in Victoria could bring about a change in focus at BC Ferries, and a different attitude about building in BC. I wouldn't bet on it, but it's a possibility. In which case, what has happened in the recent past regarding what we've built here and what we haven't, and the value of those decisions, could be very much in play again, and some of us may want to make our feelings known to the people making the decisions. Thirdly, even if this issue is indeed dead, it's still a part of our current politics, and when it ceases to be that, it will be a part of our history. History isn't just a collection of stories from the past; it's also a resource that we interpret and learn from, and can point the way to doing things differently if we feel we got it wrong the first time. How we handled the shipbuilding industry could provide some instruction for other areas of our economy, and it can say something about how we see ourselves as a society. One famous historian (can't remember who) once said that you can't really write objective history until 150 years or so after the fact. That might be a little extreme, but even if we're only looking at shipbuilding in the rear view mirror, people's perspectives on the subject are still very much affected by their political beliefs and biases, and the final verdict, even on the entire story of the fastcats, is probably a long way off. This forum is largely repetition, in one form or another. The only reason the latest picture of the Queen of Surrey looks new is because we can't remember the exact same angle we saw a year or so ago. There are only so many ways to describe a trip on the Queen of Vancouver. The ferry world doesn't re-invent itself every day, but we look at things and talk about the things that interest us, and skip those that don't, even if there's a certain sense of deja vu.
|
|
D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
|
Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 12, 2009 3:54:13 GMT -8
How long is this debate regarding local shipyards and ferries going to go on. It's going around and around like a propeller on a Merc outboard. ...and I admit to a similar tendency to make flat, declarative assertions when I'm talking about something I feel strongly about... lmao...well...as they say, "opinions are like rear entries , everyone's got one". I think we can all agree we sometimes suffer from this affliction.
|
|
|
Post by WettCoast on Mar 12, 2009 17:15:47 GMT -8
Paul,
I am not surprised that you would want to slag the NDP and their transportation policies. You are, after all, good buddies with Mr. Falcon - the man who labelled the Northern Adventure a 'Cadillac'.
When you slag the NDP on their lack of transportation initiatives you neglect to mention that the Spirit of Vancouver Island was ordered and completed under their watch, as was the Skeena Queen. They also at least tried to foster ship building in BC, something which your boys have turned their backs on.
Regarding highway projects, under the NDP the long neglected improvements on Vancouver Island (i.e. the Inland Island Hwy) was finally done. Your boys (Social Credit, Liberal or what ever label currently in use) have done little if anything on the Island.
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Mar 12, 2009 17:55:21 GMT -8
Might I add the NDP also built Duke Pt terminal, and built the Millenium SkyTrain line which I commute on frequently...
|
|
|
Post by tigbc2001 on Mar 13, 2009 13:34:55 GMT -8
Don't forget the 3 catamar-boat anchors... that's also something lovely the NDP gloriously built, oh and even gave WMG a hell of a discount to take them off our hands. Yaaaaaaay NDP
|
|
Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
|
Post by Nick on Mar 13, 2009 13:41:44 GMT -8
Don't forget the 3 catamar-boat anchors... that's also something lovely the NDP gloriously built, oh and even gave WMG a hell of a discount to take them off our hands. Yaaaaaaay NDP Not that I wholeheartedly support either party, but it was actually the BC Libs that gave those pop cans away. Sold on March 24, 2003 for 19.4 million. They were originally put up for sale by the NDP, and they reportedly received a few offers for them, but the final sale didn't come until 2 years AFTER the Liberals took over. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Ferry_Scandal
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 13, 2009 19:00:05 GMT -8
In regards to the "turning the back" it might be wise to review some fundamentals, since BC shipyards at the time the C. Ferries were put to tender (and yes there were local participants in the bidding process) could not economically complete with FSG and other offshore bidders. If FSG had not brought forward a mix of cost and logistics agreeable to BC Ferries, then the project would have most likely gone to a consortia in Korea. Versatile Pacific's successful bid on the Spirits was not the lowest bid submitted. (source: Harbour & Shipping, April '93) A political decision was made that accepting a higher bid was offset by the value of building in BC. A different mindset was in play with the awarding of the Coastals, and you shouldn't characterize that decision as being some unarguable economic imperative.
|
|
Quatchi
Voyager
Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
|
Post by Quatchi on Mar 13, 2009 21:50:38 GMT -8
Ive got the fancy 1992 Dodge Dakota LE. Shes a beauty. I hit a Honda Civic last year at about 15 km/h and totaled it, I replaced my headlight.
Go American steel.
Cheers,
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 13, 2009 21:57:44 GMT -8
The reference was not the Spirits but rather the C. Ferries. As you remember the Spirits went to Vito Boats. There was a contention back then (c. 1990) that the Spirits be built locally (this was debated in the Legislature and the government of the day did infact state that the Spirits were to be built locally. Yes there was a different mindset, but also remember that when the Spirits were built the shipyard infrastructure existed, but did not when the C. Ferries were built. It's neither here nor there what kind of car anyone drives, nor does it matter if shipyard workers ride the Flensburger vessels. I don't think you're representing the truth of the matter accurately. WMG was part of the initial bidding process for the Coastals. Why would they have expressed interest if they couldn't physically build the ships? According to the shipyard union, they chose not to bid on the NorEx project, because they were busy enough already, not because they couldn't do it. Some press releases, from the SGWF site: David Hahn, president of BC Ferries told BCTV Friday while local industry “can and should” build three new Super C-Class vessels for his fleet, he is prepared to send 2,000 jobs and half a billion dollars to an overseas company in defiance of political pressure from local industry.
VANCOUVER – Throughout an interview with a local television reporter Friday, David Hahn, president of BC Ferries denounced the BC shipbuilding industry and its practices and defended his prerogative to award a lucrative contract to an overseas company. In a contradictory statement during the same interview, Hahn said that while British Columbia shipbuilders “can and should” build the vessels here, he believes local industry is using politics to try to “slip in to the back door” of BC Ferries' process and he is not prepared to give way. “It's closed,” he says of the bid process.
Hahn also raised the spectre of the “fast ferries” saying more contracts to local shipbuilders would be “money down the drain.” --------------------------------------------------------- ..... MacPherson said an email from David Hahn to Kevin Falcon dated July 28, 2004 shows that BC Ferries was reporting directly to the government about its plans to build the ferries in a foreign shipyard. The email tells Falcon that Hahn will launch an “all out media campaign” on July 30, with Hahn to “lead the media blitz myself” and that Hahn will “ arrange for your office to receive an advance copy” of the material.---------------------------------------------------------- VANCOUVER - With the Washington Marine Group confirming today that it has been excluded from bidding on construction of 2 Super-C Class ferries for BC Ferry Services, the Shipyard General Workers Federation is calling on the provincial government to intervene and demand new ferries be built in British Columbia.
“With just this one disastrous decision alone, BC shipyards and workers will lose more than 1,500 jobs and $220 million in investment,” says Federation president George MacPherson. “But BC Ferry Services plans on spending up to $2 billion in total for new ships in the years ahead – that investment and those jobs should be in British Columbia, not South Korea or Germany or China.”
WMG senior vice-president Rollie Webb confirmed in Province and CKNW reports today that the firm, which owns Vancouver Shipyards, has been told by BC Ferry Services that it will not be allowed to bid for the 2 new superferries.----------------------------------------------------------- VANCOUVER – The BC Shipyard General Workers' Federation is charging the BC Ferry Services Board of Directors with dereliction of duty after the Board refused a request from the Washington Marine Group for a meeting to discuss the BC shipyard's exclusion from bidding for three new Super C Class ferries worth $500 million and 2000 direct jobs. MacPherson said he was told late Monday that the BC Ferry Services board had rejected a request to meet with Washington Marine Group representatives prior to the Board making a decision this Friday to ratify a tentative deal with Germany 's Flensburger Shipyard to build the three ferries.----------------------------------------------------------- VANCOUVER – The Washington Marine Group is sinking the British Columbia shipbuilding industry by refusing to make a bid to construct two new BC Ferries' North Coast ferries worth about $350 million, the BC Shipyard General Workers' Federation said today. In a letter to Washington Marine Group President Rollie Webb, MacPherson said the company's stated reason that it is “too busy” with other work to make a bid simply doesn't make sense and asked why shipyard unions and other smaller shipyard companies were not consulted.
“We are also shocked that devastating decisions that affect your entire organization as well as the entire industry are done with absolutely no consultation or involvement with your labour unions or with the rest of the industry,” MacPherson wrote. “We have also suggested in the past that if the Washington Marine Group is not capable of undertaking these projects on their own, then there are other players in the industry that would step up to the plate and assist you to make sure the work remains in BC.”------------------------------------------------------- Of course, the union was probably making all this stuff up. Can't trust those featherbedding lefties.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 13, 2009 22:59:28 GMT -8
But this concept of complaining about the C. Ferries and N/E being built off the Coast is spinning around faster than a good sized propeller mated to a Merc outboard. Okay, Merc outboard...I gotcha the first time... You didn't answer the question. So... Why did WMG submit a preliminary bid for a project they couldn't build? Why did they say "We're too busy", if, again, the real answer was "We can't"? Why did they and Allied Shipyard allow the union to conduct a tour of their facilities designed to show provincial politicians that it was indeed possible to construct major ferries here?
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,192
|
Post by Neil on Mar 14, 2009 10:21:31 GMT -8
But there will be a next time, since the Jumbo Ferries (Oak bay, Coquitlam, etc. are reaching the end of their service lives soon. The Shipbuilder Union should work with WMG and other yards such as Allied to see what can be done now to being the process of preparing to bid locally for the next group of ferries. I don't believe the Cs are scheduled for retirement until some time after 2020. I agree with you, in principle. The two parties need to forge the best, and most flexible relationship possible, and soon, if they're not working on it already. That could all be rendered moot by two other factors however; if BC Ferries is determined to always take the lowest bid, unlike with the Spirits, and if WMG is simply content to keep to the lower profile jobs that they have now. As I said before, a change in government might alter the first factor. Who knows about the second.
|
|
|
Post by Starsteward on Mar 14, 2009 11:46:36 GMT -8
By the time the C's are scheduled for replacement, the local shipbuilding industry will be in even worse shape than it is now with respect to the number of available trained trades people as there is no great incentive for folks to train in some of the specific areas that will be needed down the road. In terms of logistics, where is the land going to be available to create suitable shipyards to do the work? All in all it is a very messy question with a future that is as unpredictable as the next set of winnining numbers for the 6/49.
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 14, 2009 19:06:20 GMT -8
In complicated bids, companies often set up a multi-stage process. Even with the large number of them I have been involved with, the thought puts me into an immediate sweat of dread.
The first stage is an empression of interest. The company looking for a product or service, puts forward a first stage of information that gives the bidder the broad scope of what will be required. Broad dates, budget, and some details are provided.
If a bid company feels they can meet these broad parameters they submit an expression of interest. They often then get substantially more information. Only those bid companies see that. And it is not unusual for those bid companies to also have signed a number of agreements including confidentiality agreements. If the bids are well prepared you don't get much of a surprize at this second stage.
It is not unusual for bid companies to not submit detailed proposals once they see the complete information. You look at everything and first of all see if you can fulfill the details. Then you make a guess what your competitors will do. Then the most important part is you look to see if you can make any money on the deal. Even though the first stage of expression of interest can take a lot of time and expense, the viewing of the complete bid information can be a good learning experience, even if you think you may not even end up submitting a bid.
A short list if often decided by the company and a number of the bidding companies become finalists. The company scrutinizes these bid companies very carefully and often has a whole range of other hoops they as the bidders to jump through.
Someone on the forum eats, drinks and sleeps bids so may have a few comments.
Times change and you never want to close the door on business in the future. Saying you are too busy makes your company look good while you don't want to submit a bid. It says you are successful. So if you don't think you can make enough money on the job, if the clients are too difficult, or if you really can fulfill the requirements of the bid may all be part of the picture.
|
|