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Post by Low Light Mike on May 15, 2011 7:29:33 GMT -8
If you look on the NRCan topographical map of the area, map 092G04, you'll find "Duke Point" at N49.15056 W123.88171. I don't have that map, but I checked on Google Earth, and Google Earth's style of degrees is different than what you've shown. - ie. Google Earth has: xxx"xx'xx.xx If you could please describe, with words, where "Duke Point" is relative to Jack Point, Harmac Mill, river mouth etc, that would be helpful. I'm looking at my map, and I don't see anything else that is a "point", other than considering the entire peninsula, which was my earlier guess. |
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Post by lmtengs on May 15, 2011 9:12:24 GMT -8
If you look on the NRCan topographical map of the area, map 092G04, you'll find "Duke Point" at N49.15056 W123.88171. I don't have that map, but I checked on Google Earth, and Google Earth's style of degrees is different than what you've shown. - ie. Google Earth has: xxx"xx'xx.xx If you could please describe, with words, where "Duke Point" is relative to Jack Point, Harmac Mill, river mouth etc, that would be helpful. I'm looking at my map, and I don't see anything else that is a "point", other than considering the entire peninsula, which was my earlier guess. Wikimapia accepts those co-ordinates, with a tiny bit of form modification: www.wikimapia.org/#lat=49.15056&lon=-123.88171&z=13&l=0&m=b&search=49.15056%20N%2C%20123.88171%20WI'm thinking that before the shoreline was artificially extended out, for the deepsea port and all that, the point was more visible. If somebody has access to a really old chart, like, over 50 years old, that would probably be better at identifying the point of Duke Point. |
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Post by Ferryman on Jun 3, 2011 11:16:37 GMT -8
I can't help but notice as a drive around, the Dogwood trees are in full bloom right now. At the Duke Point terminal parking lot, there is Dogwood trees everywhere. Here's a mission for any of you near that terminal this weekend. The weather is supposed to be awesome, and I'd appreciate a photo of the terminal with the Dogwood trees in full bloom.
Cheers
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Jun 3, 2011 17:51:09 GMT -8
I'm going up Nanaimo way tomorrow. I'll see if I can't stop by and take something.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 7, 2011 19:57:15 GMT -8
Views from August 6, 2011: I've never noticed the lovely beach at Duke Point before  ....here's the full setting, of course.  ----------------- On the employee-only service road that runs down to the berth, I noticed the little green street sign that is attached to the rock wall.  Here's a close-up  ....it must be an employee inside joke. Captain Dave Badior was the president of the Ships Officers Component of BCFMWU for a few years. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 16, 2011 18:13:47 GMT -8
Arriving at Duke Point on the Queen of Alberni. - July 2, 2011   |
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Oct 18, 2011 21:29:04 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 29, 2012 11:04:15 GMT -8
CBC.ca/BC Twitter feed @ 10:50 AM - 29 Feb 2011
So, what do people think?
Note: Bolding done by WCK to emphasize the main point.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Feb 29, 2012 13:38:46 GMT -8
Kind of reminds me of what cities have done to airports. Move the traffic out of central city and to a remote location which requires access by driving. However, this makes the airport less accessible by transit which is a major advantage of Departure Bay and why there are not as many walk-ons from Tsawwassen-Duke Point as there could be. However, we all know unless there was a massive expansion to Departure Bay, the traffic could not be handled by Departure Bay for two routes.
As for off-season, while you might cut employee expenses, there are still bills to be paid. Has the route terminating at Departure Bay been more beneficial? What about during holiday periods where traffic spikes occur? There are more passenger benefits departing out of Departure Bay but I am not sure about the capacity for large trucks.
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Mar 1, 2012 8:26:59 GMT -8
CBC.ca/BC Twitter feed @ 10:50 AM - 29 Feb 2011 So, what do people think? Note: Bolding done by WCK to emphasize the main point.I don't think the savings would be all that much in the scheme of things. As far as I know, all the staff from Duke Point are currently working at Departure Bay, since DPB needs more staff to run 2 routes. As PK has pointed out, the fixed overhead like taxes would remain the same, and the maintenance costs would drop somewhat, but not much since the equipment would still need to be operational for summer. Also, we haven't seen Departure Bay during any major rush periods, other than Christmas. Ultimately, if they were to close Duke for the winter, I don't think they'd be able to do it for much longer than say Christmas to Easter, since the weekend peak loads pick up pretty good later in the spring. |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 1, 2012 17:59:41 GMT -8
For the mayor to make such a comment, my assumption would be local businesses are commenting on the increased business due to the additional off season traffic through Departure Bay.
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Post by WettCoast on Mar 1, 2012 20:14:59 GMT -8
For the mayor to make such a comment, my assumption would be local businesses are commenting on the increased business due to the additional off season traffic through Departure Bay. You could be right. Mayors usually are big fans of more people having to drive by the local businesses. Having said that it appears that lots of (maybe most) folks prefer Departure Bay over Duke Point. There should be no problem handling both routes through this terminal through most of the year, and BCFS could save some money. On the other hand, at peak periods, there are crowding issues for sure. We need to remember, though, that Departure Bay handled both routes in all seasons up until 1997. With declining traffic, the number of vehicles and passengers being handled these days is well below the numbers seen in the summers of the mid 1990's. |
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Nick
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Post by Nick on Mar 2, 2012 7:54:06 GMT -8
For the mayor to make such a comment, my assumption would be local businesses are commenting on the increased business due to the additional off season traffic through Departure Bay. You could be right. Mayors usually are big fans of more people having to drive by the local businesses. Having said that it appears that lots of (maybe most) folks prefer Departure Bay over Duke Point. There should be no problem handling both routes through this terminal through most of the year, and BCFS could save some money. On the other hand, at peak periods, there are crowding issues for sure. We need to remember, though, that Departure Bay handled both routes in all seasons up until 1997. With declining traffic, the number of vehicles and passengers being handled these days is well below the numbers seen in the summers of the mid 1990's. Sure, Departure Bay handled the traffic, but it was known at the time that it was a temporary measure until a new terminal was built. Do we have any numbers for how often the traffic backed up down Stewart Ave.? I'm guessing pretty much every weekend from June thru August. |
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Post by Kahloke on Mar 2, 2012 11:32:28 GMT -8
Would it ever make sense to consolidate the terminals at Duke Point? I know it probably wouldn't ever happen, especially with all the recent upgrades Departure Bay has gotten - lots of money sunk into that terminal now - and it would require huge amounts of $$$ to upgrade Duke Point to handle both routes, but it would alleviate a lot of the traffic issues in Nanaimo, and as has been mentioned by others, the expressway out to the highway and the Nanaimo Parkway gets travellers out of Nanaimo much faster. And, Duke Point to downtown Nanaimo can be done in 20 minutes, at least I've done it in 20 minutes, so it's really not that far.
Under such a proposal, here is what I would envision happening at Duke Point:
1. Add 2 more berths and possibly one tie-up/reserve berth for a net total of 3-4 berths
2. Extend overhead passenger walkways to the 2 new berths
3. Expand passenger facilities and relocate Nanaimo Quay Marketplace to Duke Point
4. Expand parking - possibly by adding a multi-level garage to keep the footprint down
5. Create a transit staging area directly in front of terminal building - bus service will be required if there's only one terminal
6. Expand vehicle holding area if possible - may require buying more property if there isn't enough room
7. Increase number of toll booths to accommodate additional traffic levels
8. Expand maintenance, storage, and operations facilities as required
I'm probably leaving some things out, and like I said above, this would require huge amounts of capital $$$ to make something like this happen, and I don't really see it happening, but it would eliminate one facility. Some of the structures from Departure Bay may be able to relocate to Duke Point, so it may not all have to be new construction. Anyway, I'm just throwing it out there as a "what if?". Yeah, losing Departure Bay may negatively impact some of the downtown businesses, but maybe not as much as people are thinking it will, especially if there is good transit connections to downtown from Duke Point.
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Post by Neil on Mar 2, 2012 11:44:17 GMT -8
Would it ever make sense to consolidate the terminals at Duke Point? I know it probably wouldn't ever happen, especially with all the recent upgrades Departure Bay has gotten - lots of money sunk into that terminal now - and it would require huge amounts of $$$ to upgrade Duke Point to handle both routes, but it would alleviate a lot of the traffic issues in Nanaimo, and as has been mentioned by others, the expressway out to the highway and the Nanaimo Parkway gets travellers out of Nanaimo much faster. And, Duke Point to downtown Nanaimo can be done in 20 minutes, at least I've done it in 20 minutes, so it's really not that far. Under such a proposal, here is what I would envision happening at Duke Point: 1. Add 2 more berths and possibly one tie-up/reserve berth for a net total of 3-4 berths 2. Extend overhead passenger walkways to the 2 new berths 3. Expand passenger facilities and relocate Nanaimo Quay Marketplace to Duke Point 4. Expand parking - possibly by adding a multi-level garage to keep the footprint down 5. Create a transit staging area directly in front of terminal building - bus service will be required if there's only one terminal 6. Expand vehicle holding area if possible - may require buying more property if there isn't enough room 7. Increase number of toll booths to accommodate additional traffic levels 8. Expand maintenance, storage, and operations facilities as required I'm probably leaving some things out, and like I said above, this would require huge amounts of capital $$$ to make something like this happen, and I don't really see it happening, but it would eliminate one facility. Some of the structures from Departure Bay may be able to relocate to Duke Point, so it may not all have to be new construction. Anyway, I'm just throwing it out there as a "what if?". Yeah, losing Departure Bay may negatively impact some of the downtown businesses, but maybe not as much as people are thinking it will, especially if there is good transit connections to downtown from Duke Point. And now BC Ferries confirms that they are indeed thinking of closing a terminal, for at least part of the year. www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=c3e26e42-df21-4494-8129-730c071cd081 |
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Post by mrdot on Mar 2, 2012 12:53:37 GMT -8
:)you know, in hindsight, gov't could save one huge pile if consolidation of terminal facilities here and also the difficulties at restricted horseshoe bay, but, in hindsight again, as what huge capital expendature here as well! how wonderfull if we had piled all that development at Iona Isl., but that will never happen now, in our world of gov't restraint, where there in no money for healthcare, teachers, or the coming old age boom that I am allready part of! :)mrdot.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Mar 2, 2012 14:32:29 GMT -8
Back in the nineties, BC Ferries was run by a bunch of government appointed dummies who had no idea how to deal with traffic growth. They thought that if ferry traffic was increasing- which it was- the answer was to increase the schedule, perhaps try late night or round the clock sailings, or even build a new terminal, if growth projections warranted it.
Madness.
Then in 2003, the current group came in, with a more private sector mindest, and they instituted a very clever Traffic Growth Suppression Program, which involved constantly ballooning fares on all routes. Worked like a charm; growth came to a complete halt, and if these guys were around twenty years ago, Duke Point would not exist and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
So now in hindsight, it's like a fairy godmother guided a big Coastal' into the dock at Duke Point at a crunching five knots, because BC Ferries has a darned good excuse for closing one terminal, for at least part of the year. People seem to like using just Departure Bay. There doesn't seem to have been any huge outcry from local residents or truckers, and Nanaimo city officials like the extra traffic into the city proper.
I like Departure Bay better as well. From an operations standpoint, BC Ferries might like to amalgamate all three Nanaimo terminals into Duke Point, but there are good reasons for not doing so. Gabriola Islanders would lose a direct city connection that they've had for decades, and in an era where the dominance of the private auto is being questioned, do we really want to encourage more driving from a fairly remote terminal? Departure Bay has recently been redeveloped, and its passenger facilities are vastly better than Duke Point, and retail operators in the terminal would do much better business with two major routes there. There is no need to build a second berth for two boats in at the same time, unlike Duke Point.
Still, Departure Bay would be badly overloaded at many times during peak season, although departures every hour or so would mitigate that.
Perhaps some accommodation will have to be reached with Seaspan somehow, over the long term. Seaspan and BC Ferries operate five separate terminals in the Nanaimo area. What is the sense in that?
As BC Ferries notes, there are problems with operating a terminal seasonally, partly from the logistics of a more fluctuating workforce.
Seems like that crash, er, pardon me, hard landing, has opened up a bigger can of worms than anyone foresaw.
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Post by Scott on Mar 2, 2012 18:33:00 GMT -8
I would travel through Departure Bay over Duke Point any day. Since I'm always headed up-Island, it makes sense just from a time and distance point of view. The extra 15 minutes from Parksville (or Comox, Tofino, etc.) is usually reason enough for me. But there's also the fact that I can walk into Nanaimo and easily hop on a bus that will take me downtown or to one of the malls in less than 15 minutes. Sure, you can run a bus out to Duke Point, but you're adding at least 15 minutes of travel time to anywhere you want to go (a bus making stops would be even longer).
If BC Ferries had a couple ships like the pre-lifted Queen of Alberni, they could run primarily commercial traffic between Horseshoe Bay - Duke Point and Tsawwassen - Duke Point, and the passenger/vechile traffic between Horseshoe Bay - Departure Bay and Tsawwassen - Departure Bay. This set up probably wouldn't save any money unless the "new" ferries were a lot more economical to run.
If BC Ferries were running the ferries purely for profit, without consideration for community, other businesses, customer convenience, the environment, etc., then consolidating all the Nanaimo terminals at Duke Point would be a common sense thing to do. But in my opinion, it would be the worst thing they could do for Nanaimo.
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Post by Scott on Mar 2, 2012 18:55:43 GMT -8
Perhaps some accommodation will have to be reached with Seaspan somehow, over the long term. Seaspan and BC Ferries operate five separate terminals in the Nanaimo area. What is the sense in that? This is an interesting point, Neil. Maybe they should think about moving the Duke Point terminal to the area where Seaspan comes in, adjacent to the Nanaimo Harbour terminal. Perhaps they could consolodate all three terminals there, using the rail right-of-way running south to connect to the freeway? Then you'd have the option of accessing the terminal via Terminal Street or a highway connector along the rail right-of-way or from walking downtown. It would be almost like 60 years ago when the ferries came in right down in that area! I doubt this would ever happen, but I wonder if moving all the terminals to Nanaimo Harbour terminal would provide the best of both worlds? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 8:03:04 GMT -8
The city's worries here seem to be history repeating itself, on a bigger scale....When Langdale was built and subsequently, the bypass, it was feared that tourists would miss Lower Gibsons in their rush to get to Earls Cove. At the time, Gibsons could not handle traffic at all. Didn't happen. Many tourists still stop to enjoy Lower Gibsons, and from what i've seen, not everyone uses the bypass...but that's just a sighting, not a statistic of course. Anyways, the idea here is to close it from January (after the x-mas season) to right before the Easter weekend, if i'm getting this right? What if they just operated one ferry (i.e. the Alberni), for commercial traffic on route 30 during this time? Four sailings on each end. Probably seems like a drastic measure, but it would obviously save a few extra $ by having one ship tied up. It would keep the commercial traffic out of downtown and the regular traffic would remain closer to downtown. In my view, this seems like the only cost effective way to shuffle traffic in Nanaimo. If traffic levels ever raise, then Departure Bay won't be able to handle it...no room for expansion. I like the idea of using Duke Point only for the slower period of the year...room for expansion, would work with adding transit etc etc... but with the poor planning and the amount of money poured into upgrades at Departure Bay, I would be amazed at seeing it close at anytime in the year. Many people like going thru Departure Bay, but seem to forget about the surrounding residents (when I say that, I mean the general public, not on the forum). As some residents have said on the news, they can tolerate it knowing it's a temporary change. Seems like that crash, er, pardon me, hard landing, has opened up a bigger can of worms than anyone foresaw. Has it ever! |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 3, 2012 9:14:54 GMT -8
To my thinking, consolidating both routes at Departure Bay would be a mistake, and I hope that it doesn't happen, even on a part-year basis.
I drive Hwy-19A every day, and the access from Hwy19A to the terminal is not good for big trucks nor for large volumes of traffic.
- The approach from the north is on 19A turning down to Brechin Rd. (near Brooks Landing Mall) is poor, as it is a narrow highway constrained by the E&N rail on one side, with not enough room for a decent left-turn lane (let alone an interchange, which would be impossible at that location).
- The approach from the south is on Hwy19A in downtown Nanaimo, turning onto Stewart Ave after crossing the Pearson bridge. That Hwy19A corridor in downtown is a bad bottleneck at most times, and does not need more truck traffic. Also, it's impossible to do a left-turn (for cars or trucks) at the Hwy19A - Stewart Ave. intersection, as that land is constrained by a narrow corridor with ocean on one side and the Millstone River on the other side.
Duke Point terminal is necessary for keeping the truck traffic out of the city. Duke Point has made a big positive difference in that regard, and I hope that it resumes soon.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 3, 2012 12:01:19 GMT -8
At some point in the future, 5 or 10 years or more down the road, I could see all services consolidated at Duke Point. Why? Development would be the factor. Given that Dep. Bay is in a semi-residential area, it could be prime redevelopment for a couple of condo towers and a mixed residential development of townhomes. It would have to be on the dense side on what is normal for Nanaimo to pay for any environmental clean up of the site and remediation. However, any developer would have to have deep pockets, and the Nanaimo economy would have to be strong. As prices in Victoria continue to climb, further up Island will benenfit. Any water facing and adjacent land will lead the way in higher prices. You could also see a small marina become part of the development if demand warrants.
Any current real estate/land owners in the area would experience a substantial rise in value as their lots would be prime for redevelopment if the ferry terminal was gone.
There is room at Duke Point for additional passenger/car facilities, plus maintenance docking. Even if additional land isn't used there is room for both parking structures and a second deck of car staging, like at Horseshoe Bay. Obviously a far distance ways in the future, all dependant on real estate demand and prices, and economy. But possible.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 15:23:09 GMT -8
Do we expect Departure Bay to ever close permenantly?
-I highly doubt it, but i'm not part of BCF nor do I live in Nanaimo.
Adding bus service to Duke point would likely divert more traffic from Dep. Bay, especially in the summer months.
If BC Ferries ever decides to move forward with the idea of closing Departure Bay for part of the year, I hope it is done with the proper input of surrounding residents, unlike the so called "public information meetings" done on Denman Island, which is what they later referred to "extensive public consultation" for the cable ferry project.
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Post by Scott on Mar 3, 2012 21:55:11 GMT -8
I suppose if the Inland Island Highway was improved, the time distance from north of Nanaimo to Duke Point could be reduced by a a few minutes. If they changed the lights to interchanges, it would probably make Duke Point more popular. Unfortunately that's not something BC Ferries can change.
Bus service from Nanaimo to Duke Point would help a bit. But transit to Tsawwassen is sadly lacking compared to any of the other major terminals - it would have to be improved as well.
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Post by lmtengs on Mar 4, 2012 0:29:42 GMT -8
If they changed the lights to interchanges, it would probably make Duke Point more popular. That was originally the plan with the Nanaimo Parkway, but Nanaimo's businesses complained that including interchanges would divert even more business away from the city, so they ended up installing traffic lights instead. Horrible decision on whoever's part, those traffic lights congest traffic so much whenever Duke Point ferry traffic is running North up the Pkwy. |
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