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Post by WettCoast on Feb 7, 2011 22:07:33 GMT -8
A bridge across the open strait will never happen. A floating tunnel maybe, perhaps when 'The Canadian Viking' is into his 90th year. The distance is more than twice that of the Confederation Bridge. The average depth in Georgia Strait is about 500 metres, I understand. But the biggest obstacle is the sea bottom. It is not solid rock. It is in fact a great depth of of Fraser River sediment (read muck) that has been settling there for millennia. Finding a solid bottom for bridge footings is pretty much out of the question. Tunneling under would have to be done at a very great depth below this muck that makes that option all but impossible. Dr. Pat McGeer dreamed about a bridge back in the 1970's and he continues to dream today.
As for the short ferry route I recall their being a lot of discussion on this back in about 1975, IIRC. I do recall proposed terminals at Iona Island near the YVR airport, and at Sears Island just off the east side of Gabriola. The crossing time would have been cut in half. The C class vessels then under construction would have been able to make a round trip in 3 hours, perhaps less. Each vessel would have been able to do 6 or more round trips daily. I understand that two or three bridges from Vancouver Island would have been required, one to get to Mudge Island, and a second to get from Mudge to Gabriola. Another bridge or causeway would have been required to get to Sears Island.
I believe that this idea, or something similar, still has merit. Furthermore, if a fixed link ever is built, this Iona to Sears islands alignment might be the routing of choice, and the highways and bridges from Gabriola to Vancouver island would become part of the fixed link.
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Post by gordon on Feb 7, 2011 22:08:00 GMT -8
The main issues with a fixed link to the Island are the depth of the water & the silty bottom which would make it very difficult to anchor the bridge supports to the bottom.
The water depth under the Confederation Bridge is 35m The Georgia strait's water depth's are 345 meters.
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Post by DENelson83 on Feb 8, 2011 16:04:27 GMT -8
An all-floating bridge would not work, as it would most likely block the shipping lanes in the Strait of Georgia. If you want to build a bridge from Vancouver Island to the Mainland and not have to duke it out with the Islands Trust, it would be better to build bridges across Discovery Passage to Quadra Island, across Hoskyn Channel to Read Island, across North Sutil Channel to Cortes Island, and then from Mary Point on Cortes to Sarah Point near Bliss Landing. And then you'd still have to get across Jervis Inlet to Nelson Island and across Agamemnon Channel to Sechelt, and then... Oops! The Islands Trust has jurisdiction over all the major islands in Howe Sound, so you'd have to somehow blast your way from Port Mellon to Squamish. But anyway, that would be too much work and too much opposition from environmentalists, so... scrap that idea.
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Post by Scott on Feb 8, 2011 22:58:08 GMT -8
An all-floating bridge would not work, as it would most likely block the shipping lanes in the Strait of Georgia. If you want to build a bridge from Vancouver Island to the Mainland and not have to duke it out with the Islands Trust, it would be better to build bridges across Discovery Passage to Quadra Island, across Hoskyn Channel to Read Island, across North Sutil Channel to Cortes Island, and then from Mary Point on Cortes to Sarah Point near Bliss Landing. And then you'd still have to get across Jervis Inlet to Nelson Island and across Agamemnon Channel to Sechelt, and then... Oops! The Islands Trust has jurisdiction over all the major islands in Howe Sound, so you'd have to somehow blast your way from Port Mellon to Squamish. But anyway, that would be too much work and too much opposition from environmentalists, so... scrap that idea. Yes, too much work, and also useless:) Who wants a 7-8 hour drive from Vancouver to Victoria? It might as well be Calgary! I think even building a highway from Squamish to Langdale would be a waste of money. Unless there were multiple sailing waits, I think most people would rather take a ferry than drive two hours to get to the Sunshine Coast. Then there would be a 100% subsidized highway replacing a ferry route that receives a $3,665,000 per year subsidy. I wonder what would cost more? Maintaining a ferry or building and maintaining a highway?
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Post by DENelson83 on Feb 9, 2011 18:07:11 GMT -8
What I would do is increase the federal apportion of the subsidy to BC Ferries along the same lines as what is given out to Marine Atlantic's Newfoundland routes, and have the Province insist to BC Ferries to better manage its finances and service. I think the Feds will only increase its subsidy to BC Ferries if Vancouver Island were to separate from British Columbia and become the 11th province of Canada.
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 11, 2012 11:02:44 GMT -8
The proposed route was from Iona Island to Sear Island just off the south east coast of Gabriola Island. New road accesses would have been required on both sides. On the VI side a substantial (& costly) bridge connecting from Gabriola to the Island Highway south of Nanaimo would have been required as would a lesser crossing from Gabriola to Sear Island.
The seas distance and ferry crossing time would have been cut substantially allowing each vessel to complete perhaps twice as many round trips daily as is currently (and was at that time) the case. Although initial development costs would have been very high, in the long run this scheme would have made some sense. It was, and remains, the closest practical & affordable alternative to a bridge to Vancouver Island. Someday this scheme just might become reality.
The pressure to reduce ferry costs where possible just might lead us to reconsider bridges between some islands in the Salish archipelago.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,182
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Post by Neil on Jan 11, 2012 12:33:58 GMT -8
I agree with Paul. Routes 1&2 make money, and route 30 isn't far from breaking even. There is no cost saving for the province from any sort of bridge as opposed to ferry operations. The idea of a cross-strait bridge was dead and buried long ago, and when you consider the destruction of a large swath of Gabriola Island, not to mention the fantastic cost of new terminals, highways, and bridges to Mudge and Gabriola, even the idea of a shortened crossing makes no economic sense.
I don't think 'planning' of either of these ideas ever got past the concept stage, except in Pat McGeer's mind.
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 11, 2012 21:38:52 GMT -8
Paul (& Neil?)
I have no idea how you concluded that I was advocating for a bridge that would cross the full width of Georgia Strait. I do know (& have known for decades) that such is all but impossible.
The idea of a short ferry crossing, such as that proposed in the early 1970's that would cut in half the distance of the ferry crossing, does, however, have merit. It is technically feasible, and financially possible. In the long run it would save money and would eliminate both routes 2 & 30, as well as the Gabriola route. Each ferry, each crew, could make perhaps double the number of crossings per day as happens now. One ferry could do the work of two. That would mean significant savings on operating costs, and eventually on vessel replacement costs. It would involve a bridge between Vancouver Island and Gabriola, something that I believe would be comparable in size to the existing Port Mann bridge. This would mean the elimination of four terminals including all three of Nanaimo's.
I have also thought about a bridge between Mayne & Saturna islands which looks to be relatively easy to achieve (I just might be way off the mark on this one, though.) Such would mean one terminal where there are now two, and would eliminate the long run down Navy Channel thus providing significant savings in operating costs. The same goes for Thetis & Penelakut islands.
Note for moderator consideration: Perhaps this & preceding posts on shortened ferry routes/bridges could be moved to a more appropriate thread?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 11, 2012 22:11:21 GMT -8
Note for moderator consideration: Perhaps this & preceding posts on shortened ferry routes/bridges could be moved to a more appropriate thread? I answered a question in this thread this morning, where someone wondering about the design purpose route for the Coquitlam. And it was about that ship that this thread is for. Suggest a thread to move it to, and I'll move it tomorrow. How far back do we move from? Or is it ok to leave a day's conversation here, for something that we only talk about once every couple of years? (too tired right now.....)
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Jan 11, 2012 22:34:15 GMT -8
Paul (& Neil?) I have no idea how you concluded that I was advocating for a bridge that would cross the full width of Georgia Strait. I do know (& have known for decades) that such is all but impossible. The idea of a short ferry crossing, such as that proposed in the early 1970's that would cut in half the distance of the ferry crossing, does, however, have merit. It is technically feasible, and financially possible. In the long run it would save money and would eliminate both routes 2 & 30, as well as the Gabriola route. Each ferry, each crew, could make perhaps double the number of crossings per day as happens now. One ferry could do the work of two. That would mean significant savings on operating costs, and eventually on vessel replacement costs. It would involve a bridge between Vancouver Island and Gabriola, something that I believe would be comparable in size to the existing Port Mann bridge. This would mean the elimination of four terminals including all three of Nanaimo's. I have also thought about a bridge between Mayne & Saturna islands which looks to be relatively easy to achieve (I just might be way off the mark on this one, though.) Such would mean one terminal where there are now two, and would eliminate the long run down Navy Channel thus providing significant savings in operating costs. The same goes for Thetis & Penelakut islands. Note for moderator consideration: Perhaps this & preceding posts on shortened ferry routes/bridges could be moved to a more appropriate thread?...But you're still talking about a project with capital costs in the billions, not to mention the virtual destruction of Gabriola Island's way of life. All to replace two ferries routes which, put together, break even at worst. There also is no need to replace any of the current Nanaimo ferries for probably another fifteen years. All the current terminals have been upgraded (or are relatively new as in Duke Point), and even if you throw in the cost of an additional ferry in the next ten years or so, the operational savings on this new crossing would take many decades to realize, by which time we might all be getting over to the Island by Star Trek style transporters anyway. I've thought of the Mayne-Saturna connection as well, but I doubt there is any place in the entire world where hundreds of millions of dollars has been spent to serve a population of 400 people. Those four ferries a day are expensive, but not that expensive. Come on, Jim. Stop channelling your inner Phil Gaglardi.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 12, 2012 7:52:13 GMT -8
For Jim & Paul & Neil, here's where the Iona-Gabriola discussion has moved to....
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Post by Kahloke on Jan 12, 2012 8:23:55 GMT -8
My grandparents used to talk about when there was discussion around bridging the San Juan Islands to the mainland, connecting at least the main ones (San Juan, Orcas, Shaw, & Lopez). I believe those ideas were floated sometime in the 60's, around the same time that bridges across Puget Sound were being discussed and dreamed. Obviously, nothing ever came of it. Even if it were technologically feasible (and that would have been a big achievement in the 60's), the costs would have been prohibitive, and the islands would have lost all of the charm that comes with being more isolated and rural.
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Post by Scott on Oct 19, 2013 13:02:28 GMT -8
www.news1130.com/2013/10/19/expert-suggests-selling-tsawwassen-ferry-terminal/?cid=dlvr.itNew spin on an old idea. "Ferry expert," Andre Lemieux, (former chair of the Gabriola Ferry Advisory Committee) proposes to sell Tsawwassen to Kinder Morgan to allow tankers to fill up on oil without having to go into Burrard Inlet. Tsawwassen would be replaced by a terminal at the airport, a bridge to and new terminal on Valdez would allow the closure of all the Nanaimo terminals. Apparently this would save money. Not sure how this made the news, but it's up there now. He'll probably get an interview on the Bill Good Show, someone will write a letter to the editor of the Nanaimo Daily News, and that will be the end of it. - John H
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Post by DENelson83 on Oct 19, 2013 19:31:04 GMT -8
Oh, the Short Link again.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,182
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Post by Neil on Oct 19, 2013 21:18:56 GMT -8
www.news1130.com/2013/10/19/expert-suggests-selling-tsawwassen-ferry-terminal/?cid=dlvr.itNew spin on an old idea. "Ferry expert," Andre Lemieux, (former chair of the Gabriola Ferry Advisory Committee) proposes to sell Tsawwassen to Kinder Morgan to allow tankers to fill up on oil without having to go into Burrard Inlet. Tsawwassen would be replaced by a terminal at the airport, a bridge to and new terminal on Valdez would allow the closure of all the Nanaimo terminals. Apparently this would save money. Not sure how this made the news, but it's up there now. He'll probably get an interview on the Bill Good Show, someone will write a letter to the editor of the Nanaimo Daily News, and that will be the end of it. What blows my mind is that a guy who's promoting the insanity of building a highway across Gabriola is the former chair of the Gabriola FAC. Makes me think that someone could make a lot of money on Gabriola selling 'Andre Lemieux' masks for Hallowe'en this year.
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Post by DENelson83 on Oct 20, 2013 12:04:08 GMT -8
And he apparently doesn't know that the north end of Valdes ( with an S, not a Z) Island is a provincial park. If this plan was actually acted on, all it would result in would be a lot of Clayoquot-style environmentalist resistance in that area. So best not to stir up the hornets' nest, and just leave things the way they are now.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Oct 20, 2013 12:31:50 GMT -8
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Oct 20, 2013 13:12:35 GMT -8
It's not an interesting article, it's utter nonsense, and it's probably the fiftieth variation on the same theme that's come up over the decades from people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. Some goofball sitting down with a map and a couple of magic markers drawing out hypothetical ferry routes doesn't make for an intelligent discussion. This guy and his plan will, thankfully, disappear as quickly as all the rest.
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Post by compdude787 on Oct 20, 2013 14:46:39 GMT -8
I'm not sure how likely this will happen, especially considering that Valdes Island is undeveloped, and many environmentalists will want to keep it that way. Plus, I'd highly doubt that Gabriolans would appreciate having their peaceful island being transformed with the presence of a busy highway. It would benefit them with increased tourism, but at the expense of their peace and quiet. Even though it is possible to build a set of bridges to Gabriola Island, many islanders would be opposed to it.
I don't think this discussion will amount to anything.
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SolDuc
Voyager
West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
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Post by SolDuc on Oct 20, 2013 15:08:01 GMT -8
Don't ask me how this made it to the news but it's most definitely, positively not happening. That would be as foolish as building a bridge over the strait of Georgia.
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KE7JFF
Chief Steward
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Post by KE7JFF on Oct 21, 2013 14:33:38 GMT -8
I could see them putting a passenger only ferry to Nanamio, but anything else beyond that would be crazy...
And my god, traffic would be WORSE around Richmond...
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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 27, 2013 15:59:14 GMT -8
I've moved posts from 2 other threads regarding recent forum postings on this "Never going to happen" project idea.
This here thread is where those silly story posts can go to. - it's not news.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Oct 27, 2013 20:55:34 GMT -8
I've moved posts from 2 other threads regarding recent forum postings on this "Never going to happen" project idea. This here thread is where those silly story posts can go to. - it's not news. Oh, of course, Mr Horn. You're just organizing things, again. Suuure. I can see you sitting at your computer in your battered Tilley, rubbing your hands together and cackling about all the weirdos and impressionable pre-teens who might jump out of the woodwork with goofy proposals about bridges and highways and super terminals. Anything to stir the pot, under the guise of thread organization. I'm on to you.
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