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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 2, 2014 18:23:41 GMT -8
Now that we are in the new-era of service cuts to most routes, some interesting impacts are beginning to be noticed. Here's what I've noticed:
By reducing numbers of sailings on a route, existing traffic is reallocated into fewer sailings. This gives the greater-utilization that the Government desires, but it has some negative side-effects:
1) Full and close-to-full sailings take longer to load and unload. Ferries will fall behind schedule more often. BCFerries really loves their on-time performance statistic, and this stat will likely get poorer. Late ferries are also an inconvenience to the customer.
2) Full and close-to-full sailings are more irritable for the travelling public. Longer lineups for cafeterias (once these cuts hit some major routes), more crowded car decks with those seldom-used last-resort rows & spots being used more often. We all know that a full ferry is less pleasant to ride. It can be pretty annoying with too many people crammed into spots.
3) Full and close-to-full sailings mean that the travelling public needs to get to the ferry terminal even earlier now, in order to ensure that they get a spot on the crowded sailing. I'm not talking about Quadra Islanders who now need to leave home 10 minutes before the sailing instead of just 5 minutes before - that's a simple change. But some routes will see their customers wasting maybe an extra 30 minutes or an hour in lineups, just to ensure that they get onto their desired sailing. More time in lineups for commercial customers will also mean more wages paid to those drivers, which increases transportation company costs, which will eventually impact retail prices.
4)Full and close-to-full sailings mean that tourism will decline, because it is harder for tourists to feel confident that they can get to a destination on time, and tourists will be unconfident that they will also be able to leave when they want to. Haida Gwaii is the best (worst?) example of this impact, where tourists are staying away, because it is impossible to get a reservation (that was their May 2014 reality). If commercial traffic uses up all the reservable space, then tourists will not want to risk stand-by in order to get to their reserved accommodation places on-island.
What the travelling public expects for being able to enjoy ferry travel and to be confident in getting to their destination is to have sailings that are say 50-75% full on-average. When too many loads get full and close-to-full, then the travelling public is inconvenienced. I believe that full sailings should only occur at those special busy times of the year, such as long-weekends and summer-weekends. I believe that the desired utilization should be 50-75% on average.
A full ferry is not always a good thing.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 2, 2014 20:30:26 GMT -8
Now that we are in the new-era of service cuts to most routes, some interesting impacts are beginning to be noticed. Here's what I've noticed: By reducing numbers of sailings on a route, existing traffic is reallocated into fewer sailings. This gives the greater-utilization that the Government desires, but it has some negative side-effects: 1) Full and close-to-full sailings take longer to load and unload. Ferries will fall behind schedule more often. BCFerries really loves their on-time performance statistic, and this stat will likely get poorer. Late ferries are also an inconvenience to the customer. 2) Full and close-to-full sailings are more irritable for the travelling public. Longer lineups for cafeterias (once these cuts hit some major routes), more crowded car decks with those seldom-used last-resort rows & spots being used more often. We all know that a full ferry is less pleasant to ride. It can be pretty annoying with too many people crammed into spots. 3) Full and close-to-full sailings mean that the travelling public needs to get to the ferry terminal even earlier now, in order to ensure that they get a spot on the crowded sailing. I'm not talking about Quadra Islanders who now need to leave home 10 minutes before the sailing instead of just 5 minutes before - that's a simple change. But some routes will see their customers wasting maybe an extra 30 minutes or an hour in lineups, just to ensure that they get onto their desired sailing. More time in lineups for commercial customers will also mean more wages paid to those drivers, which increases transportation company costs, which will eventually impact retail prices. 4)Full and close-to-full sailings mean that tourism will decline, because it is harder for tourists to feel confident that they can get to a destination on time, and tourists will be unconfident that they will also be able to leave when they want to. Haida Gwaii is the best (worst?) example of this impact, where tourists are staying away, because it is impossible to get a reservation (that was their May 2014 reality). If commercial traffic uses up all the reservable space, then tourists will not want to risk stand-by in order to get to their reserved accommodation places on-island. What the travelling public expects for being able to enjoy ferry travel and to be confident in getting to their destination is to have sailings that are say 50-75% full on-average. When too many loads get full and close-to-full, then the travelling public is inconvenienced. I believe that full sailings should only occur at those special busy times of the year, such as long-weekends and summer-weekends. I believe that the desired utilization should be 50-75% on average. A full ferry is not always a good thing. Mr Horn, I know that 75% was the top end of your suggested optimum capacity utilization, but in truth, that figure would be disastrous for most communities served by the lifeline routes.
Take Bowen, for example. At 50.7% CU, their commuter runs from the island in the morning and returning in the afternoon are close to capacity or overloaded. If that was bumped to even 60%, every commuter run would overload, people would be chronically late for work, or, they would have to leave home ridiculously early, and the liveability of Bowen as a community would really suffer, along with its economy.
Hornby's capacity utilization is given as 38%. This community lives or dies with the visitors who come in July and August. Without them, there would be no Co-op store, no bakery, no Ford's Cove resort, no pub, and only a fraction of the artisans who make this place their home. On a Friday afternoon in summer, the traffic coming over from Denman probably exceeds 150% of scheduled capacity; the Kahloke is in shuttle mode, but even with sailings every forty minutes instead of hourly, there can be two sailing waits. At a time when the community is taking in financial nourishment to get it through the rest of the year, that 38% figure is a very bad joke. And, again, I have to mention, transit planners are never taken to task when commuter buses run full one way, and empty the other. It's simply the nature of providing communities with the connections they need to get where they want to when they need to.
The new reduced schedules are causing overloads where none existed before, and connections are missed. Crews on Quinitsa and Kahloke communicate and try to wait for traffic if possible, but it's difficult. Some tight connections are great for Hornbyites if traffic is light, as you drive off one ferry, across Denman, and on to the other with no wait, but if things are busy, you're arriving after all the Denman Islanders, and the boat might be full. No doubt the capacity utilization figures will be nudged upward because of this, and BC Ferries and the Liberals will express satisfaction. Island economies will not be helped, but that apparently matters little.
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Post by Starsteward on Jun 5, 2014 8:58:18 GMT -8
Mr.Horn's overview and Neil's 'micro-view' example of the current problems being created due to reduced/cancelled sailings by BC Ferries, might well be excerpts from a text book titled " The Public Governance of Transportation Systems", subtitle:" Mis-Managemnet of the Socio-Economic Matrix",that could be found on any post-secondary institution's required reading list for a variety of courses. The Mis-Management chapter, should also include the socio-economic devastation being wreaked upon the communities once served by route 40! The present Provincial Government has demonstrated, beyond debate, their total ignorance of the Socio-Economic Matrix as well as a vulgar disdain for any public input relating to the public governance of transportation systems. Since"the proof of the pudding is in the eating",(current administration), the return of a positive socio-economic matrix in British Columbia, driven by transportation systems MUST be formulated by political parties currently occupying the 'other side of the aisle".
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 6, 2014 8:35:33 GMT -8
Tonight at 6:30, almumniUBC and the CBC are doing a ninety minute webcast of a panel discussion, 'Who should BC Ferries serve?'. Panelists are BC Ferries CEO Mike Corrigan, FAC co-chair Tony Law, former ferry commissioner Martin Crilly, and Mike Tretheway of UBC's Sauder School of Business. Moderator is CBC host Gregor Craigie.
www.alumni.ubc.ca/2014/events/dialogues/who-should-bc-ferries-serve/
OOPS! The discussion was last night... the webcast is available now.
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Post by Kahloke on Jun 6, 2014 13:13:36 GMT -8
Tonight at 6:30, almumniUBC and the CBC are doing a ninety minute webcast of a panel discussion, 'Who should BC Ferries serve?'. Panelists are BC Ferries CEO Mike Corrigan, FAC co-chair Tony Law, former ferry commissioner Martin Crilly, and Mike Tretheway of UBC's Sauder School of Business. Moderator is CBC host Gregor Craigie.
www.alumni.ubc.ca/2014/events/dialogues/who-should-bc-ferries-serve/
OOPS! The discussion was last night... the webcast is available now.
I watched a good part of this, about an hour or so of it - very interesting. Speaking as an outsider, it gives me a better idea of the issues involved. One of the things I gleaned from this discussion is how needlessly complex the Coastal Ferry Services Contract is. It seems like it's tying the hands and/or severely limiting the options BC Ferries has for gaining real efficiencies and streamlining the process. I liked what Tony Law had to say. I think he is right in that BC Ferries needs to be treated more like an extension of the highways and not as a private company. Thanks for posting the link, Neil.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 7, 2014 9:16:11 GMT -8
Tonight at 6:30, almumniUBC and the CBC are doing a ninety minute webcast of a panel discussion, 'Who should BC Ferries serve?'. This was much enjoyed by me, listening to it on a lazy Saturday morning. Thanks for that link. I enjoyed the intelligent discussion setup of this; much more productive than the "Build a bridge" hecklers. I appreciated the ongoing references to "The elephant that is not in the room" regarding Government. Unfortunately, all the progressive talk about long term vision and strategies is only academic unless Government steps up and gives some vision and explains why or why not economic-impact is being ignored. After hearing some of Minister Stone's legislature question-period responses, I've concluded that he would have been out-of-place in this forum of intelligent discussion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 12:48:18 GMT -8
i was invited to go to the event, but could not make it in time. However, i saw the webcast as it was streaming. It was a very informative session, I remember when some of the ferries were part of The Ministry of Highways, and thus part of the highway system. Fares were still charged on these boats but were much cheaper then.
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Post by WettCoast on Aug 27, 2014 19:01:10 GMT -8
Service cuts on northern routes means that that BC Ferry Services no longer provides a 'shoulder season' in terms of the schedule, but they do so in terms of the prices . As of September 8th both routes 10 & 11 revert to winter service levels with just one round trip weekly on the Inside Passage, and two round trips to Haida Gwaii. This same service level was in effect in May, also. I can accept that that level of service is perhaps appropriate following the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend through to the early spring, but the company, and the BC government should be recognizing a mid level of service through September until Thanksgiving, during the Christmas - New Year period, in March during the School Spring Break - Easter period, and throughout May and early June. The schedule, as it exists now, is just plain rediculas, and Tod Stone, Christie Clark & the BC Liberals are the ones who should be 'wearing this'. This lack of service impacts not just people who live up here, but also businesses in the tourism sector.
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SolDuc
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SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
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Post by SolDuc on Aug 27, 2014 19:08:46 GMT -8
Service cuts on northern routes means that that BC Ferry Services no longer provides a 'shoulder season' in terms of the schedule, but they do so in terms of the prices . As of September 8th both routes 10 & 11 revert to winter service levels with just one round trip weekly on the Inside Passage, and two round trips to Haida Gwaii. This same service level was in effect in May, also. I can accept that that level of service is perhaps appropriate following the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend through to the early spring, but the company, and the BC government should be recognizing a mid level of service through September until Thanksgiving, during the Christmas - New Year period, in March during the School Spring Break - Easter period, and throughout May and early June. The schedule, as it exists now, is just plain rediculas, and Tod Stone, Christie Clark & the BC Liberals are the ones who should be 'wearing this'. This lack of service impacts not just people who live up here, but also businesses in the tourism sector. I think that it's interesting to see that in late September and from March to June, AMHS vessels will sail the inside passage more than BC Ferries will. During that time AMHS will provide the regular Friday departure but also the Saturday cross-gulf sailing every other week, so 1.5 sailings a week versus 1 sailing a week for BC Ferries. Now if only we could get them to stop along the way...
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Aug 27, 2014 19:35:55 GMT -8
:)the short answer to people of the coast, our ferries don't have a 'shoulder season', just an all year 'shove it' season mrdot.
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Post by Starsteward on Aug 28, 2014 8:33:53 GMT -8
Service cuts on northern routes means that that BC Ferry Services no longer provides a 'shoulder season' in terms of the schedule, but they do so in terms of the prices . As of September 8th both routes 10 & 11 revert to winter service levels with just one round trip weekly on the Inside Passage, and two round trips to Haida Gwaii. This same service level was in effect in May, also. I can accept that that level of service is perhaps appropriate following the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend through to the early spring, but the company, and the BC government should be recognizing a mid level of service through September until Thanksgiving, during the Christmas - New Year period, in March during the School Spring Break - Easter period, and throughout May and early June. The schedule, as it exists now, is just plain rediculas, and Tod Stone, Christie Clark & the BC Liberals are the ones who should be 'wearing this'. This lack of service impacts not just people who live up here, but also businesses in the tourism sector. Nicely written as usual Wett Coast, although you have started my blood boiling. The present Liberal administration unfortunately doesn't give a damn about the Mid and North Coast of B.C. as that region is a Liberal wasteland when it comes to expecting to ever get an MLA of their stripe elected! Citizens need to get more proactive and start writing, e-mailing, their MLA, regardless of what stripe the MLA wears and what constituency that MLA may represent, and voice their displeasure at the total disregard for not only the transportation, economic needs of the citizens of the area, but also the harm, as you point out, that is being done to the tourism sector of that part of the province which has unlimited growth potential!
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 6, 2014 6:01:44 GMT -8
An opinion piece from Tom Fletcher of Black Press...
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Post by Starsteward on Sept 6, 2014 9:56:35 GMT -8
If there was ever the slightest doubt as to Minister Stone's level of incompetence, he has done a remarkably great job in demonstrating it with his quote: " ..my assessment is that the 'Nimpkish' is a good tourism product if tourists are made fully aware of the type of service it provides". If anyone is still in doubt that 'incompetence' should be replaced with 'totally ignorant' when Minister Stone puts a capital 'I' on Ignorant, by stating: "....to grow and to be viable in order to capture a share of the thousands of international tourists looking for exactly the the of adventure the 'Nimpkish' provides" One can hear our (what we have left of them), international tourists laughing uncontrollably at the garbage the Liberal government and BC Ferries is serving up as something worth sharing with the rest of the world. WHAT AN OUTRAGE! I offer my apologies to our international tourist friends who used to be treated with a much higher level of service, ...and respect!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 6, 2014 11:22:17 GMT -8
Roughly eighteen months from now, things will get even more interesting...
So we are now in the last "normal" full off-season for the 3 main routes. Then next year, we'll get a partial normal offseason before the changes happen in April 2016.
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Post by hwy19man on Sept 7, 2014 23:13:36 GMT -8
If there was ever the slightest doubt as to Minister Stone's level of incompetence, he has done a remarkably great job in demonstrating it with his quote: " ..my assessment is that the 'Nimpkish' is a good tourism product if tourists are made fully aware of the type of service it provides". If anyone is still in doubt that 'incompetence' should be replaced with 'totally ignorant' when Minister Stone puts a capital 'I' on Ignorant, by stating: "....to grow and to be viable in order to capture a share of the thousands of international tourists looking for exactly the the of adventure the 'Nimpkish' provides"One can hear our (what we have left of them), international tourists laughing uncontrollably at the garbage the Liberal government and BC Ferries is serving up as something worth sharing with the rest of the world. WHAT AN OUTRAGE! I offer my apologies to our international tourist friends who used to be treated with a much higher level of service, ...and respect! That is unbelievable what Todd Stone has said. He has (along with the rest of the provincial government) seriously missed the boat on what is happening!
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Sept 8, 2014 20:31:56 GMT -8
I think Minister Stone and Christy Clark do not know what people need and BC Ferries have proven this because people need more and not less sailings and also the referendum for TransLink.
Maybe Stone should take a look at changing management and government relations with BC Ferries to help reduce the costs for BC Ferries.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 10, 2014 21:44:21 GMT -8
as mentioned by 'hwy19man' in another thread... www.vancouversun.com/business/Ferries+fare+hikes+cost+billion+lost+economic+activity+report/10191576/story.html
This is an extremely important story, and credit to the Vancouver Sun for reporting it, along with Stephen Hume's articles a while back detailing the damage the Liberals' penny wise, pound foolish moves are doing to both BC Ferries and the province's economy in general.
The NDP, FACs, and ferry critics in general can rail about cutbacks, but what needs to be shown is that these idiotic 'cost saving' measures are costing far more than they're saving. The information has to be aggregated by accountants and others who don't necessarily have an axe to grind, for it to be effective. This report, commissioned by the UBCM, carries weight, and while I doubt the $2 billion plus figure they've come up with- money not spent on ferry travel may have partially been spent elsewhere- it is compelling information.
As in building ferries overseas because it's 'cheaper', intelligent people know you have to look beyond the figures that are right in front of your face to find the broader implications of cutbacks. Savings can actually be very expensive... but politicians like Christy Clark and Rob Ford count on the electorate being too lazy to investigate further.
This is research that could actually play a role in re-defining how we measure the investment necessary to carry on life and commerce in a maritime society. If the Clark Liberals ignore it now, it needs to be a part of the NDP's election platform next time around. Better facts and figures than rhetoric.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 11, 2014 9:24:45 GMT -8
Just read through it right, now. Most likely the article only summarizes the most important points, but to see the comparison of the province spending $150 million on the ferry system compared to over 2 billion in lost economic activity to the entire economy indicates the far reaching losses incurred by everyone, not just ferry users, through the current service model.
I did notice that the article referred to BCFerries as a Crown corporation when their own website states they aren't really one, and it also has a disclaimer that the report's information may need to be compared with government records and BCFerries company records for verification of the numbers. No doubt, the Liberals could provide documentation that would support their position to some extent, but probably not the whole, and they would probably try everything they could to try and gloss over the $2.3 billion estimate.
Hopefully you are right, Neil, and some people are reading the article and use the info to try and pull some heads out of the sand.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 11, 2014 10:36:13 GMT -8
... use the info to try and pull some heads out of the sand. BC 'Liberals', it seems, will never ever go back on fundamental changes that they have made to the coastal ferry system over the last 10+ years. To do so would be to admit that they had errored (i.e. 'screwed up'). This is true not just with the ferries but on so many other fronts as well. Some might say that their stubbornness trumps sound judgment.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 11, 2014 18:17:10 GMT -8
... use the info to try and pull some heads out of the sand. BC 'Liberals', it seems, will never ever go back on fundamental changes that they have made to the coastal ferry system over the last 10+ years. To do so would be to admit that they had errored (i.e. 'screwed up'). This is true not just with the ferries but on so many other fronts as well. Some might say that their stubbornness trumps sound judgment. Which still begs the question, how did they win that last election? Any one of those things should have been a government ending scandal, and yet they are still there.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 11, 2014 21:06:58 GMT -8
It is entirely within the realm of possibility that a family of four, with one child over twelve and one under, would pay up to $470 to get from Vancouver to Hornby Island and back. That is assuming they purchased modest meals on board both ways, bought a couple of items in the gift shop, and didn't make use of an Experience card. Rock bottom, if they purchased nothing and used the fare discount, they would pay at least $280 return.
The intriguing and maddening thing about the departed David Hahn was that, on one hand, he understood that BC Ferries couldn't operate as if it had a monopoly on coastal tourist travel, yet he was blind to the cost factors inherent in ferry usage. He denied that rising fares discouraged patronage.
This report, and other data, points out that since 2003, traffic in an out of Vancouver and Victoria airports has grown substantially. Highway usage, and congestion, has grown. Transit use is up dramatically. Cruise ship figures for Vancouver have recovered somewhat, and tourism in general is holding steady or is up. Of course, BC's population has increased. In other words, people are still getting out and about, and are not generally hunkering down, despite what Hahn claimed in explaining away declining ferry patronage.
Ferries are very vulnerable to cost factors. When a family decides to take the car and go on holidays, they have certain costs that are more or less fixed. They have to buy food. They have to buy gas, and they need accommodation at their destination. What they can control- and have been, since 2003- is whether they get on a ferry or not. Instead of spending that $280-$470 to go to Hornby Island, they go to a lake, or the mountains, or somewhere else nice in this beautiful province of ours. Ferry travel is not essential for people with discretionary travel dollars, but when they opt not to spend those dollars in coastal communities, it hurts local economies, and makes it difficult for residents there. Services are cut, and get more expensive. Revenue streams to government in the form of taxes are diminished. Islanders are squeezed, and buy less and travel less often.
This report goes far beyond the impact on small communities like Hornby, and points out the cost to the provincial economy as a whole. This is something we've needed for a long time. Whether it has any impact with those in power... I'm very doubtful. Christy Clark blathers on about families, but seeing her determination to financially starve the families of teachers until those teachers capitulate to her contract demands, I doubt that there's any more empathy with families in ferry dependent communities, despite the math available to her in this report.
(Edited to correct fare figures downward.)
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 13, 2014 20:39:00 GMT -8
Reposting the link here, because this is the more relevant thread. In case anyone wants more detail, the the complete report appears to be available from the UBCM website in PDF form : www.ubcm.ca/assets/Resolutions~and~Policy/Policy~Papers/2014/UBCM_PolicyPaper_Book01_2014.pdfIt appears the impact of ferry services is going to be their spotlight discussion at an upcoming convention, with the intent to develop a policy response to BCFS service model going forward. It might be an interesting discussion to hear.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2014 20:24:27 GMT -8
It is entirely within the realm of possibility that a family of four, with one child over twelve and one under, would pay up to $470 to get from Vancouver to Hornby Island and back. That is assuming they purchased modest meals on board both ways, bought a couple of items in the gift shop, and didn't make use of an Experience card. Rock bottom, if they purchased nothing and used the fare discount, they would pay at least $280 return.
(Edited to correct fare figures downward.) Post un-liked, because the big difference makes your point invalid. $280 is much more reasonable than your $395 figure, and no one is forced to eat on the ferry...
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 14, 2014 22:04:43 GMT -8
It is entirely within the realm of possibility that a family of four, with one child over twelve and one under, would pay up to $470 to get from Vancouver to Hornby Island and back. That is assuming they purchased modest meals on board both ways, bought a couple of items in the gift shop, and didn't make use of an Experience card. Rock bottom, if they purchased nothing and used the fare discount, they would pay at least $280 return.
(Edited to correct fare figures downward.) Post un-liked, because the big difference makes your point invalid. $280 is much more reasonable than your $395 figure, and no one is forced to eat on the ferry... Fair enough if you disagree about the effect of the figures, but I maintain that we reached a tipping point some time ago where a lot of discretionary tourist dollars were diverted out of the ferry system... and BC Ferries' own numbers seems to back that up. Travel is down, even for residents, and local economies have been impacted. You might think $280 is fine but $395 is not; traffic figures say otherwise.
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Post by northwesterner on Sept 14, 2014 22:47:50 GMT -8
Fair enough if you disagree about the effect of the figures, but I maintain that we reached a tipping point some time ago where a lot of discretionary tourist dollars were diverted out of the ferry system... and BC Ferries' own numbers seems to back that up. Travel is down, even for residents, and local economies have been impacted. You might think $280 is fine but $395 is not; traffic figures say otherwise. One of the biggest problems with BCF is the total unwillingness to understand the basic Econ 101 concepts of supply and demand. They seem shocked that by raising the price, they have reduced the demand for their services. Is there a single manager there who's taken a business class? There are many very creative things that could done to provide flexible fares based on demand and seasonality to increase revenue while maintaining baseline costs. In the early days of the forum there was a running thread called "Ferries Busy" where the members would track overloads, sailing waits, and extra managers discretion sailings (done with the crew on overtime to clear the loads - totally not cost effective). When was the last time we had a "Ferries Busy" thread? Are the ferries ever that busy anymore? When you had three-sailing waits, all day Friday/Sat/Sun in the summer, in both directions, on Route 1, service was underpriced. Now... its overpriced. How is BCF going to meet equilibrium? They could consider going to dynamic pricing. Want to ride the ferry on a Sunday afternoon with no reservation? 20% surcharge above the base tariff. Last summer, I took Route 1 westbound from Swartz Bay to Tsa on a Sunday night. I just missed the 2000 sailing (with a Coastal). She sailed full. I ended up on the 2100 (on a Spirit). We were less than half full. Could BCF entice some travelers to take the last sailing by offering it at a 10% discount off the base tariff, leaving more room for those willing to pay to travel at peak times? Wouldn't it be better to fill that Spirit up (even at a reduced tariff) rather than do the whole "sailings wait" thing with cars lined up all afternoon? These are just some examples of what BCF could do if they had any imagination or business acumen (not necessarily what they should do). When are they going to show a little imagination?
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