Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,189
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Post by Neil on Mar 24, 2007 22:33:46 GMT -8
I second Flugel Horn's sentiments. Different perspectives are welcome here, definitely including landlock's. There was no slap in the face; Mr Horn is just a big ol' kidder.
Have to admit, though, when I hear strong opinions expressed, backed up by what sounds like practical experience, and then note equally strong replies including references to horse anatomy, I sometimes think it might be helpful to the discussion for people to know just what perspectives those sentiments are coming from... to give some context to the remarks. Although, granted, people have a right to their anonymity.
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Post by landlocked on Mar 25, 2007 9:34:50 GMT -8
While I feel for Klatawa Teen, I hope I captured the 'essence' of the decision, not easily determined, to cease operations. I can only imagine what the investors discussed when they decided to pull the plug on HL, an entity that so many dedicated people worked so hard to build.
I know the whole experience has been frustrating for many of the ex employees of HL. I do have my fears however, that Ed is simply going to repeat history. A note concerning the Business Examiner article where it states with respect to Royal Sealink "the Nanaimo run was making money". According to Graham Clarke, who's company managed that business for most of its operating time, he states "not only did the Nanaimo run not make money, it didn't even pay for its own fuel." I think that says it all.
Victoria Clipper don't make money on their boats. They make it on hotel room and other product bookings. They are the number one wholesale buyer of hotel rooms in both Victoria and Vancouver. They are either the second or first largest single volume buyer of Amtrak tickets in the US. They have only been able to survive running their vessels by having a warehouse full of spares for the Fjellstrands.
Not only does Ed not have any spares, but he's putting the boat back to work with one very very suspect engine that may let go at any time. Don't forget, when MTU states you inspect all the counterweight bolts at 9,000 hrs, these ones now have in excess of 23,000 hrs on them. Ooops I forgot...Cullen Detroit Diesel game Ed a letter that says the port engine will go for another 4,000 hours. Apparently the starboard engine didn't pay any attention to what Cullen said.
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Post by NMcKay on Mar 25, 2007 10:38:32 GMT -8
it was on the evening / morning news on A channel in nanaimo / vancouver island, during thier VI Report, which is a program detailing special happenings on the island.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 25, 2007 10:47:54 GMT -8
I'm still looking for a clue as to the fundamental viability of this operation. Somewhere along the way here in the forum I saw something about a crossing time of 80 minutes vs. 95, and a fare cost of $26 one way vs. $10.55. I don't think I'd pay $1/min for the advantage... what is the attraction/advantage? I'm not being obtuse, at least not deliberately. Would someone kindly clue me in?
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Post by NMcKay on Mar 25, 2007 11:08:44 GMT -8
well...the advantage is, if you get on in downtown, your saving 15 - 20 minutes by not having to drive to HSB, and your not having to drive from DPB to Downtown either, saves you roughly 30 - 35 minutes, which if you calculate it means your costs run could be different. (11.50 + 5 - 8$ gas and approx 30 mins of time (which if you calculate it, even at 15$ an hour (so another 7, taking the total to 26.50) so you save .50 and 45 or so minutes of your time. plus the landing in downtown is near all major transportation hubs as well, which makes good sense if you need to get somewhere and dont have a car.
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Post by landlocked on Mar 25, 2007 13:03:42 GMT -8
There are two main factors that will make the service viable: 1) Time - The trip downtown to downtown is 80 minutes vs 150. Everyone seems to think Horseshoe Bay is in downtown Vancouver and it's far from it, so just because you are in HB, you still have to get downtown somehow. 2) Easy connections to carry on your trip. Imagine leaving downtown Nanaimo at and less than 3 hours later being in Mission. Or perhaps less than two hours to New Westminster from Nanaimo. That's a huge saving over taking BCFS, particularly once they start ramping up their 'fuel saving initiatives'. Case in point - Duke Pt. to Tsw - If they advertise 2 hours how come the last time I was on the Alberni dock to dock was 2hr15min?
Cost, sailing frequency and reliability are going to be the deciding factors for Sealink. One boat, no spare parts (at least at start up), and a $30 one way trip....hmmm...sounds more than a little pricy. What about folks wanting to come to Nanaimo for business? You land in Nanaimo at 1015 and you have to be back on the last sailing at 330? Short day.
It is going to be a VERY tough road for them. Sorry Ed, but changing the colour of the boat and renaming it isn't the only ingredient for success.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 25, 2007 13:14:08 GMT -8
Okay, that sounds theoretically feasible, though a fair amount of people don't value their time that highly (personally, I value mine on a sliding scale, depending on what I'm trying to justify ). How do the downtown transportation connections compare to service at HSB? Also, just out of curiosity, what is there for a tourist to do in Nanaimo beyond visit the bastion? I couldn't find dink. Heck, it took me twenty minutes just to find TimmyHo's. I think there are two fundamental hangups in the whole plan, myself. One is that people can look at the fare differential and, completely ignoring the cost of their time and gas, will balk. The other is, and I can attest to this from working for WSF, is that people don't want to get out of their cars.
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Post by NMcKay on Mar 25, 2007 13:46:04 GMT -8
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Post by Scott on Mar 25, 2007 14:01:56 GMT -8
I don't know if this new venture is going to be any more successful than the old one. What's changing? Maybe the reliability if they do it right. That's a step in the right direction, but it's not going to increase ridership that much.
The fact that it saves time and money is technically a benefit, but break it down a little more. How many people live in Downtown Nanaimo within walking distance of the ferry terminal? There are a couple apartment towers on either side of downtown within a 10-15 minute walk, but that's not going to bring enough business to justify a ferry. So people will have to bus or drive to downtown Nanaimo, then park (and pay for that) in Nanaimo. That all adds time and money to the whole trip.
I think maybe in 4 or 5 years when the waterfront development is completed and maybe some more towers along the waterfront (where the shipyard currently is)... if these things go ahead and more people move into Nanaimo's center area... there will be more commuters to attract. Nanaimo is growing, and there will probably be more business trips to the city from Vancouver in 4 or 5 years as well, although as it's already been pointed out the schedule isn't very convenient for that.
As far as tourism to Nanaimo goes... I think there is some potential. My wife is from Parksville, so we spent many days in the Nanaimo area and I think it's a great place. However, I can't imagine going to all the parks and places without having a car. Shopping is spread out away from downtown for the most part. Parks are all over the place, but many of them are a "car drive" away. There are buses (and the terminal is just a couple blocks from the main bus interchange), but they're not as frequent as in Vancouver. It's doable but complicated and inconvenient.
But even within walking distance of downtown Nanaimo there are some good places to visit. There's the Nanaimo museum, Nanaimo art gallery, Nanaimo library, the Port Theatre, Port Place Mall, Maffeo Sutton Park, Newcastle Island, the waterfront walkway, the Bastion, downtown shopping, Historic Nanaimo shopping district, Bowen Park isn't far away... I'm sure others could add some more. I've been to most of these places and I'd visit most of them again. But then again, that's probably only going to attract tourist passengers from May to September.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 25, 2007 16:57:47 GMT -8
For me, it is a service that I would see as a convenient way for downtown to downtown business travel......but I wouldn't be doing it frequently enough for me to have a positive impact on the ship's ridership stats.
One factor that puts the fast-ferry as more-conventient than Baxter/Harbour seaplanes, is the lack of a luggage weight restriction on the fast ferry. Baxter's beavers and Harbour's otters have a limit of 25-pounds of any total luggage. For me, my laptop-computer bag nearly uses up all of that limit, not leaving much room.
In fact, my only trip on the old HarbourLynx was because I was overweight for Baxter, as I had forgotten about the limit.
But again, that's my 3 times a year convenience factor, and for 1 person, that's not enough ridership to help the fast ferry to survive.
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Post by landlocked on Mar 25, 2007 20:11:25 GMT -8
There is no doubt that changing people's travel habit is a key to the success of a passenger only (non destination) ferry. What I mean is that Clipper have made a success of 'holiday or vacation travel'. They do not cater to commuters or persons with family and relatives in Victoria. The Nanaimo/Vancouver route caters to the VFR (Visiting Family and Relatives) market. You will need to cater to this segment, build on the commuters, and build your connections to the tour and travel trade to make a go of it.
Pricing is important, particularly when you are competing with a highly subsidized public entity. Anyone who thinks route 1,2 and 30 aren't subsidized, think again. You have to offer something they can't. In this case it can't be price as the current system is underpriced. Can you offer speed and a ferry that doesn't drop you off in the middle of nowhere? YES! No half, three quarter or one hour commutes from the ferry terminal. In the six terminals that BCFS has serving Nanaimo/Vancouver/Victoria, the only terminal that is remotely central is Dep. Bay. Try to get to either H.Bay or Tsw from Langley or Maple Ridge, or Burnaby, or Surrey during busy travel times. From downtown Vancouver to Surrey is an effort free 28 minutes on skytrain. Try doing that from H.Bay. Heck, you can hardly get downtown from H.Bay in 28 minutes.
The other thing about another service is having the option. That won't put any money in the bank, but it will grow the market. If people can get to and from Vancouver Island easier and with less effort and hassle, they will. That's an opportunity for Sealink.
Build more economical vessels with smaller and less expensive crews, service the route with more sailings and the service will make a go of itself. Price it right and it will succeed.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 25, 2007 20:20:28 GMT -8
Bill (landlocked):
Do you think that the core commuter-customers that once used Harbourlynx on a daily basis will show up at Island-Sealink's door right from day-1 (or week-1), or will it take some time and effort for the new service to get those regular customer's back?
When you were at H-Lynx, did you get to know a lot of the "regulars"....and do you know what those people have been doing for travel in the past year?
Just curious...I suspect that there was a core-group that rode together everyday for a year....and even in today's "i-pod / cellphone society", I'm guessing that those people formed some sort of social connection re their frequent travels together.
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Post by NMcKay on Mar 25, 2007 20:55:49 GMT -8
they formed the Harbourlynx Commuters Group. to try and force the Nanaimo Port and other things into helping the Lynx prosper
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Kam
Voyager
Posts: 926
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Post by Kam on Mar 26, 2007 8:53:52 GMT -8
The old HL worked well for me because of the connections to transit on the Vancouver side. Being able to step on to the sky train at the other end made my trips to the big smoke that much easier.
Right now, I take my car over because it just takes too much time and hassle to get the buss all the way from HSB, connect to transit downtown, and not to mention the way over crowded bus from HSB.
So right now, its costing me over $100 round trip, with the Lynx it was $45, and it got me where I needed to go just as quickly as with my car.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 26, 2007 8:58:17 GMT -8
they formed the Harbourlynx Commuters Group. to try and force the Nanaimo Port and other things into helping the Lynx prosper I have a problem with that concept... I don't believe in having government subsidize private enterprise, especially a private enterprise that competes with another government-subsidized operation--one that is government-owned, despite all the hoopla about being 'private'... there's only one share as far as I can tell and the Crown owns it. (That's like calling a dictatorship One Man, One Vote. Technically accurate but completely misleading.)
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Mar 26, 2007 9:22:32 GMT -8
they formed the Harbourlynx Commuters Group. to try and force the Nanaimo Port and other things into helping the Lynx prosper I have a problem with that concept... I don't believe in having government subsidize private enterprise, especially a private enterprise that competes with another government-subsidized operation--one that is government-owned, despite all the hoopla about being 'private'... there's only one share as far as I can tell and the Crown owns it. (That's like calling a dictatorship One Man, One Vote. Technically accurate but completely misleading.) Unless I am misreading what Klatawa Teen is saying, I would assume the Harbourlynx Commuters Group was more about getting Nanaimo Port to give them a break on fees, and maybe get tax breaks from the local government. See reply 87 in ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=smallbcferries&action=display&thread=1120616985&page=4 for a little more about what was going on. A subsidy, yes, but nothing you don't see private or public companies attempting in almost any other industry in order to reduce overhead.
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Post by landlocked on Mar 26, 2007 9:55:15 GMT -8
Horn,
I don't think you'll see them back right away. Other arrangements have been made in most cases and I can't see them disrupting them, particularly if the boat has technical problems during the start up period. Having said that, what would bring them back? Reliability and pricing. Once bit, twice shy.
Barnacle,
Nobody was asking for subsidies only fair treatment. When a customer goes on a BC Ferry and pays the Port of Nanaimo 15 cents, he doesn't want to pay the port $1.00 to go on the fast ferry. If the government gives a private ferry company (bcfs) 10.00 to transport seniors mid week, why won't they do it for another private operator. In essence what they are saying is the mid week promotion subsidy is not to the traveller, but an additional subsidy to the ferry company. Fairness, fairness, fairness....that's all.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 26, 2007 13:55:08 GMT -8
Barnacle, Nobody was asking for subsidies only fair treatment. When a customer goes on a BC Ferry and pays the Port of Nanaimo 15 cents, he doesn't want to pay the port $1.00 to go on the fast ferry. If the government gives a private ferry company (bcfs) 10.00 to transport seniors mid week, why won't they do it for another private operator. In essence what they are saying is the mid week promotion subsidy is not to the traveller, but an additional subsidy to the ferry company. Fairness, fairness, fairness....that's all. Okay, I can see where I misunderstood Klatawa Teen--probably the use of the word "prosper." "Survive" may have been a mor appropriate choice. But as to BCFS being a "private" company, answer me this: who owns it? "The shareholders" is not an acceptable response unless you can say who the shareholders are... and from everything I've read on this forum, the Crown owns every single ounce of the shares. That isn't private; it's an offshore holding company.
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Post by landlocked on Mar 26, 2007 15:25:42 GMT -8
Barnacle,
I know the use of the word 'private' is in many ways semantics when it comes to BCFS. If you want the company to explain itself, it's private and shielded from the Freedom of Information Act. The company is private only so the issues cannot be debated in the house. What I have been saying is 1) 'if the Government of BC is providing a ferry travel subsidy to seniors, why do you only qualify if you take their ferry?' 2) 'if private operators provide discounts for travel under the medical 'travel assistance program' why do the private participants underwrite it and the government reimburses their ferry company the cost of providing benefits under the program?
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Post by Queen of Cowichan on Mar 26, 2007 18:43:36 GMT -8
Sorry Ed, I am afraid I will not be using your Resurected service. For 30 dollars ($27.50 plus Taxes, etc) I can travel via BC Ferries and return plus have money for a coffee onboard. Only the RICH can afford that kind of service. People on the lowerer end of the income scale have not the luxury of choosing the Fast Cat.
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Post by NMcKay on Mar 26, 2007 18:45:16 GMT -8
it even a little rich for my blood
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 27, 2007 7:13:25 GMT -8
Barnacle, I know the use of the word 'private' is in many ways semantics when it comes to BCFS. If you want the company to explain itself, it's private and shielded from the Freedom of Information Act. The company is private only so the issues cannot be debated in the house. What I have been saying is 1) 'if the Government of BC is providing a ferry travel subsidy to seniors, why do you only qualify if you take their ferry?' 2) 'if private operators provide discounts for travel under the medical 'travel assistance program' why do the private participants underwrite it and the government reimburses their ferry company the cost of providing benefits under the program? I see where you're going with it, and I understand why it is unfair. That having been said, I still don't think it's a particuarly viable operation because, like a lot of people, all I see is a $15+ difference in fares for a 15-minute difference in time saved, and being forced to 'abandon' my car in the bargain. I freely admit I don't like having my mobility restricted by having my car sitting on a different island than I am. That and I know the boat is probably a tad fuel-thirsty (though you should compare it to the four-engine versions that WSF ran!) and I suspect the fuel-per-person curve on the big boat is probably more to my token-evnironmental-concern liking. THAT having been said... how's the parking on either end of the run?
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Post by landlocked on Mar 27, 2007 8:32:26 GMT -8
Barnacle, I think you might find the price difference more than $15, actually, more like $18, as I've heard the rack rate will be in the order of $30 vs $12 for BCFS. There is a certain percentage of the population that have accepted the notion to use 'public' transportation, in addition, in the case where an automobile is not required, you could capture that market as well. I'm not going to share #'s in the forum, but suffice it to say that is is a small percentage of population, however, based on the specific run and the customer's travel intention, the number of folks not requiring an automobile can be significantly higher. Don't forget, the ferry industry customer, by and large are the dinosaur of the travel world. Folks that fly into Nanaimo annually don't use their cars, nor do the bus passengers and walk ons, all of which add up to a fairly tidy sum of folks. Back to specifics, I do have to say that I have worked the numbers 17 different ways to Sunday, and I can't make it work with a single 40 mtr Fjellstrand on this run either, but hey, who the heck am I?
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Post by landlocked on Mar 27, 2007 10:33:51 GMT -8
The TAP program is administered through the Ministry of Health. You apply for travel through your doctor/ministry. When approved, you take that form and present to carrier for travel, whether it be an airline, bus line, or ferry. ALL OF THE CARRIERS subsidize this travel with discounts, EXCEPT BC Ferries. While you and a companion, if approved, show up at the ferry, pay nothing, however, your travel in it's enitirety is reimbursed by the Ministry of Health to BCFS. Every other participant (carrier) must provide their discount on their own hook.
The Ministry of Transportation funds the seniors program. Show your gold card and you get on for free (auto not included). In turn, your travel expense is re-imbursed to BCFS from the Ministry of Transportation. The travel subsidy is ONLY provided if you travel on BCFS, which seems contradictory. Is this a travel subsidy for seniors as advertised, or an additional subsidy to BCFS? I would say the latter rather than the former. Last years estimate for these two subsidies is in the order of $15M up from about $10 when BCFS went 'private'. And yes, these subsidies are paid on the major routes, so don't let anyone tell you they aren't subsidized!
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Post by kylefossett on Mar 27, 2007 14:44:08 GMT -8
The TAP program is administered through the Ministry of Health. You apply for travel through your doctor/ministry. When approved, you take that form and present to carrier for travel, whether it be an airline, bus line, or ferry. ALL OF THE CARRIERS subsidize this travel with discounts, EXCEPT BC Ferries. While you and a companion, if approved, show up at the ferry, pay nothing, however, your travel in it's enitirety is reimbursed by the Ministry of Health to BCFS. Every other participant (carrier) must provide their discount on their own hook. The Ministry of Transportation funds the seniors program. Show your gold card and you get on for free (auto not included). In turn, your travel expense is re-imbursed to BCFS from the Ministry of Transportation. The travel subsidy is ONLY provided if you travel on BCFS, which seems contradictory. Is this a travel subsidy for seniors as advertised, or an additional subsidy to BCFS? I would say the latter rather than the former. Last years estimate for these two subsidies is in the order of $15M up from about $10 when BCFS went 'private'. And yes, these subsidies are paid on the major routes, so don't let anyone tell you they aren't subsidized! seeing as there are no specialists on any of the gulf islands alot of people need to go to victoria or vancouver for these appointments. they now have an added expense that is a ferry trip so this is a good thing to have. the gold card getting you free travel for passenger only monday-thursday helps get people who can travel during the week away from the busier times like the weekends. also i look at this as a thank you to the senior citizens of this province, many of which are likely ww2 vets, for what they have done for the development of this province and country
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