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Post by waterlogged72 on Mar 21, 2016 5:56:05 GMT -8
Staten Island is exactly where I got the idea from.
That's a good point about the demand for service, admittedly something I overlooked. Maybe at some point in the future, if the population in this area keeps growing the way it is.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 21, 2016 15:58:08 GMT -8
Staten Island is exactly where I got the idea from. That's a good point about the demand for service, admittedly something I overlooked. Maybe at some point in the future, if the population in this area keeps growing the way it is. Good evening, I'll be your designated buzzkill...
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lifc
Voyager
Posts: 471
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Post by lifc on Mar 22, 2016 7:24:27 GMT -8
Just use the KdT's, they already are rated fir750, by adding another cabin watcher, you can probably get another 300 capacity. Then get some properly designed 80-90 car boats to replace then on their usual routes.
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Post by waterlogged72 on Mar 23, 2016 6:24:29 GMT -8
Just use the KdT's, they already are rated fir750, by adding another cabin watcher, you can probably get another 300 capacity. Then get some properly designed 80-90 car boats to replace then on their usual routes. That's a possibility. Using those existing vessels, the mezzanine decks could be expanded into another full-size passenger cabin. Since the vessels would no longer carry cars in this scenario, they would effectively become passenger vessels with three full-length passenger cabins. I wonder what the passenger capacity would be in this configuration... However, there's still the big question of demand. Maybe 20 or so years from now, it might be there. Truth of the matter is, the demand simply isn't there now. One can dream, right?
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Post by Kahloke on Mar 23, 2016 6:51:26 GMT -8
Just use the KdT's, they already are rated fir750, by adding another cabin watcher, you can probably get another 300 capacity. Then get some properly designed 80-90 car boats to replace then on their usual routes. That's a possibility. Using those existing vessels, the mezzanine decks could be expanded into another full-size passenger cabin. Since the vessels would no longer carry cars in this scenario, they would effectively become passenger vessels with three full-length passenger cabins. I wonder what the passenger capacity would be in this configuration... However, there's still the big question of demand. Maybe 20 or so years from now, it might be there. Truth of the matter is, the demand simply isn't there now. One can dream, right? You're right about the demand. It simply isn't there. This is not New York. According to Wikipedia, the population of the greater New York Metropolitan area is roughly 20 million. The greater Seattle area, by contrast, only has around 3.5 million people, and out of that, only a relatively small number of people living on the west side of the sound. Most of the concentration, not surprisingly, is in King, Pierce, and Snohomish Counties. New York is the only metropolitan region in the country I can think of that warrants large passenger-only ferries, and they have them. Even the San Francisco Bay Area has much smaller P-O boats, and that region also is much larger in population than Puget Sound. I have a hard time seeing our region needing large passenger-only ferries, even 20 years out from now. As for the KD-T's, I think it will be a VERY long time before we see them replaced on the routes they are on. WSDOT has a lot more pressing demands for $$$ spent than replacing the KD-T's. The ailing Super Class fleet comes to mind. It's good that they are building 4 Olympics on this 1st wave of the new-build program. That should allow for 2 Supers to be put into reserve status once Suquamish enters service.
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Post by R30A on Mar 23, 2016 7:39:40 GMT -8
That's a possibility. Using those existing vessels, the mezzanine decks could be expanded into another full-size passenger cabin. Since the vessels would no longer carry cars in this scenario, they would effectively become passenger vessels with three full-length passenger cabins. I wonder what the passenger capacity would be in this configuration... However, there's still the big question of demand. Maybe 20 or so years from now, it might be there. Truth of the matter is, the demand simply isn't there now. One can dream, right? You're right about the demand. It simply isn't there. This is not New York. According to Wikipedia, the population of the greater New York Metropolitan area is roughly 20 million. The greater Seattle area, by contrast, only has around 3.5 million people, and out of that, only a relatively small number of people living on the west side of the sound. Most of the concentration, not surprisingly, is in King, Pierce, and Snohomish Counties. New York is the only metropolitan region in the country I can think of that warrants large passenger-only ferries, and they have them. Even the San Francisco Bay Area has much smaller P-O boats, and that region also is much larger in population than Puget Sound. I have a hard time seeing our region needing large passenger-only ferries, even 20 years out from now. As for the KD-T's, I think it will be a VERY long time before we see them replaced on the routes they are on. WSDOT has a lot more pressing demands for $$$ spent than replacing the KD-T's. The ailing Super Class fleet comes to mind. It's good that they are building 4 Olympics on this 1st wave of the new-build program. That should allow for 2 Supers to be put into reserve status once Suquamish enters service. In fairness, Staten Island is one of the least dense and least populous parts of the inner NY metropolitan area with a bit under 500K residents. It is a lot smaller than Seattle and has one of the most car centered cultures in the area. That all said, When you Staten Island to the west side of Puget sound, SI's population is substantially higher than Kitsap county+Island county+ San Juan County+ Vashon island, so yes, you certainly are dealing with a smaller market. (Just not quite as much smaller as you were implying.)
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
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Post by Neil on Mar 23, 2016 15:31:54 GMT -8
The Staten Island ferries carry about 21 million passengers a year. In 2015, WSF in total carried 6.8 million foot passengers. The Bainbridge Island and Bremerton runs accounted for 4.8 million of those. No other run was even close to a million. Doesn't seem to be a case for large passenger ferries anywhere, now or in the foreseeable future.
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Post by waterlogged72 on Mar 23, 2016 17:36:48 GMT -8
I was thinking along these lines because the powers that be will not let the concept of PO service between Bremerton and Seattle die. The same concept has been tried, and has failed numerous times; and the latest attempt by Kitsap Transit will meet an identical fate. Is it the type of vessels that have been used? I believe so. I feel that the small capacity of the vessels, in conjunction with the emphasis on speed is the problem. Granted, 2,000+ passenger capacity is admittedly overkill. I'm just thinking outside the box here, and I do welcome the constructive criticism. It helps to have more than one set of eyes looking at a situation.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Mar 23, 2016 17:50:18 GMT -8
I was thinking along these lines because the powers that be will not let the concept of PO service between Bremerton and Seattle die. The same concept has been tried, and has failed numerous times; and the latest attempt by Kitsap Transit will meet an identical fate. Is it the type of vessels that have been used? I believe so. I feel that the small capacity of the vessels, in conjunction with the emphasis on speed is the problem. Granted, 2,000+ passenger capacity is admittedly overkill. I'm just thinking outside the box here, and I do welcome the constructive criticism. It helps to have more than one set of eyes looking at a situation. In terms of 2,000+ being overkill, most of the time sure but the extra space on the Supers is especially valuable and is something I wish that was taken into account when building the Olympics given the usual weather here in the Pacific Northwest at least having a promenade with some inside space too. I know the Walla Walla had 1,500+ one time after a Seahawks game but the boats can usually handle the commuter loads for the most part.
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Post by waterlogged72 on Mar 23, 2016 18:54:26 GMT -8
I was thinking along these lines because the powers that be will not let the concept of PO service between Bremerton and Seattle die. The same concept has been tried, and has failed numerous times; and the latest attempt by Kitsap Transit will meet an identical fate. Is it the type of vessels that have been used? I believe so. I feel that the small capacity of the vessels, in conjunction with the emphasis on speed is the problem. Granted, 2,000+ passenger capacity is admittedly overkill. I'm just thinking outside the box here, and I do welcome the constructive criticism. It helps to have more than one set of eyes looking at a situation. In terms of 2,000+ being overkill, most of the time sure but the extra space on the Supers is especially valuable and is something I wish that was taken into account when building the Olympics given the usual weather here in the Pacific Northwest at least having a promenade with some inside space too. I know the Walla Walla had 1,500+ one time after a Seahawks game but the boats can usually handle the commuter loads for the most part. 2,000 passengers seems to be a good number for the car ferries on the Bremerton-Seattle run. While 2,000 is likely overkill for a PO boat, I don't see the small capacity of a vessel like the Rich Passage I being sufficient. I don't know how many people that boat carries, but unless the tickets to ride it are going to be $20 or more (just a wild guess on that price), it's going to be a financial disaster (again).
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 27, 2016 3:44:23 GMT -8
I was thinking along these lines because the powers that be will not let the concept of PO service between Bremerton and Seattle die. The same concept has been tried, and has failed numerous times; and the latest attempt by Kitsap Transit will meet an identical fate. WSF's experiment died because of lack of funding; someone finally put together the realization that we were competing against ourselves. And until the fare structure was changed to sell only one-way tickets at Bremerton, it was never going to work. And if fares were collected each way at Bremerton, the ticket sales for the PO boat still wouldn't have worked... plus an astonishing number of people would probably have driven to Bainbridge to avoid paying the one-way fare...
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Post by waterlogged72 on Mar 28, 2016 19:15:41 GMT -8
I remember the whole funding issue, it's been a long time now. Is there a demand for PO service between Bremerton and Seattle at all? I can't help but think Kitsap Transit is going to have the same problem with using the Rich Passage 1.
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Post by R30A on Apr 24, 2016 18:09:17 GMT -8
Now this idea has been done before, especially in rebuilds, but can we bring individual character back to each boat in a class? Even an Issaquah-esque color stripe on the floor would do something to give each of the new class boats their own identity. The state has done a fantastic job with the rebuilds of the Evergreen, Issaquah, Super, and Jumbo I/II classes- Each boat has its distinct feel.
Also, I'd love to go back to the 1990-2000s seats. I find them MUCH more comfortable than the new ones in either the KDT or Olympic classes.
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 26, 2016 18:23:17 GMT -8
Now this idea has been done before, especially in rebuilds, but can we bring individual character back to each boat in a class? Even an Issaquah-esque color stripe on the floor would do something to give each of the new class boats their own identity. The state has done a fantastic job with the rebuilds of the Evergreen, Issaquah, Super, and Jumbo I/II classes- Each boat has its distinct feel. Also, I'd love to go back to the 1990-2000s seats. I find them MUCH more comfortable than the new ones in either the KDT or Olympic classes. I too would love to have some individualism in the interiors of the vessels. The Issaquah-class boats are all different in their interiors (though the Issaquah and Sealth use similar colors); the three Supers that have had their interiors "officially" renovated all look different too. (The Hyak's interior had a great deal of its interior materials renewed a few years back, but it was in the original 1967 colors and, well, nobody noticed.) I spent three-plus months on the Samish last fall and for the life of me I can't recall what the chairs looked like...
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Post by rwbsparks on Jun 13, 2018 19:19:17 GMT -8
While it’s likely that the Super Class will be replaced by additional Olympic Class Ferries, the Jumbos are only 5 years away from 50 years old. Does anyone have any concepts or ideas for what we may see 10-15 years from now when the two vessels hit replacement age? Is it likely that they’ll be larger to handle traffic at Kingston better or the same size so that they’re flexible between Kingston and Bremerton?
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Post by Kahloke on Jun 14, 2018 5:40:51 GMT -8
While it’s likely that the Super Class will be replaced by additional Olympic Class Ferries, the Jumbos are only 5 years away from 50 years old. Does anyone have any concepts or ideas for what we may see 10-15 years from now when the two vessels hit replacement age? Is it likely that they’ll be larger to handle traffic at Kingston better or the same size so that they’re flexible between Kingston and Bremerton? It's probably too early to gauge where the ferry system will be at that time regarding demand, funding, etc., but assuming that passenger and vehicle volumes are going to grow, I would be inclined to build something a little larger than the Mark II's with a small increase in vehicle capacity and a much larger increase in passenger capacity. I would then assign the two new vessels to Bainbridge, where that extra passenger capacity is needed, and shift one of the Mark II's up to Kingston to join Puyallup, with the other Mark II in reserve. Bremerton will likely be fine with the Olympic Class vessels; I can see two of those going there in the long term.
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Post by theoanderson23 on Sept 11, 2018 18:15:41 GMT -8
Hello,
After browsing through the new 2040 plan proposal, I thought it would be fun to share my idea for the state’s next class of ferry. I thought here might be a good place to do that.
Now while the state wants to continue building 144’s and is apparently researching building more 202 car, Jumbo Mark II’s, I’ve wondered if perhaps a class of ferry in-between the two might work? I’m currently looking into following a career in naval architecture and this is my concept for what I call the “172 Auto ferry” or I guess could be called the “Jumbo Mark III” class ferry perhaps? I came up with this design a couple years ago but never finished it as you will see the design is missing many things like bow anchors and such which I haven’t yet added. As you will notice the ratio of car capacity to vessel size is probably not the most realistic but this design started out as more of an exterior design study for my portfolio but I am now drawing up more realistic designs.
This 172 design concept is based on the original Jumbo’s and I envision would be direct replacements for the Walla Walla & Spokane. The current design is about 440 feet in length and would carry about 1,700 passengers. On the top decks, I enclosed and modernized the bridges and added a wrap around sun deck promenade with sun deck level cafeteria like on the Super Class which I think would make for a really fun & attractive ferry to ride. While I figure that the state won’t be building anything like this anytime soon, it’s fun to imagine what a new large ferry might look like after the completion of the Olympic class ferries. Hope you all enjoy.
Jumbo Mark III Aerial by The023, on Flickr Jumbo Mark III Profile by The023, on Flickr
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Sept 11, 2018 19:43:54 GMT -8
Hello, After browsing through the new 2040 plan proposal, I thought it would be fun to share my idea for the state’s next class of ferry. I thought here might be a good place to do that.
Now while the state wants to continue building 144’s and is apparently researching building more 202 car, Jumbo Mark II’s, I’ve wondered if perhaps a class of ferry in-between the two might work? I’m currently looking into following a career in naval architecture and this is my concept for what I call the “172 Auto ferry” or I guess could be called the “Jumbo Mark III” class ferry perhaps? I came up with this design a couple years ago but never finished it as you will see the design is missing many things like bow anchors and such which I haven’t yet added. As you will notice the ratio of car capacity to vessel size is probably not the most realistic but this design started out as more of an exterior design study for my portfolio but I am now drawing up more realistic designs.
This 172 design concept is based on the original Jumbo’s and I envision would be direct replacements for the Walla Walla & Spokane. The current design is about 440 feet in length and would carry about 1,700 passengers. On the top decks, I enclosed and modernized the bridges and added a wrap around sun deck promenade with sun deck level cafeteria like on the Super Class which I think would make for a really fun & attractive ferry to ride. While I figure that the state won’t be building anything like this anytime soon, it’s fun to imagine what a new large ferry might look like after the completion of the Olympic class ferries. Hope you all enjoy. I like the design, I could see modify version of your design being used for 202 car because the Jumbo Mark II would be decades order. Also what the point of middle part of vessel striking out?
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Post by theoanderson23 on Sept 11, 2018 20:52:02 GMT -8
Originally, the amidships “bump out” was envisioned to create more sun deck space and an expanded amidships lounge & gift shop areas below in the passenger cabin overlooking the water. In afterthought, it might not be a good idea from a maintenance perspective as it is a bit radical and would probably cause complications financially and physically for WSF crews to clean the windows but I would like to see a ferry with a year round gift shop so I will have to update this design with a relocated gift shop area. I think I will remove that middle “bump out” back to a traditional WSF amidships design.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Sept 12, 2018 15:54:20 GMT -8
Originally, the amidships “bump out” was envisioned to create more sun deck space and an expanded amidships lounge & gift shop areas below in the passenger cabin overlooking the water. In afterthought, it might not be a good idea from a maintenance perspective as it is a bit radical and would probably cause complications financially and physically for WSF crews to clean the windows but I would like to see a ferry with a year round gift shop so I will have to update this design with a relocated gift shop area. I think I will remove that middle “bump out” back to a traditional WSF amidships design. That is resonable solution to expanding the passenger cabin without going to upper deck. I would prefer WSF to use upper deck instead of bump out. Also wouldn’t the docks need to be modifying for the bump out to work?
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Post by Barnacle on Sept 18, 2018 10:52:59 GMT -8
Also wouldn’t the docks need to be modifying for the bump out to work? Got there before I did. I think the bump-out, while visually appealing, would encounter difficulties with the dolphins at low tide. Mostly by encountering the dolphins.
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Post by maximase86 on Sept 18, 2018 19:51:57 GMT -8
A helicopter landing/hovering point on the boat?
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Sept 18, 2018 21:07:31 GMT -8
A helicopter landing/hovering point on the boat? I think helipads are common because Cruise ships, Northern Adventure, Northern Expedition and Coastal Class have helipads.
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Post by Barnacle on Sept 19, 2018 4:58:15 GMT -8
A helicopter landing/hovering point on the boat? I think helipads are common because Cruise ships, Northern Adventure, Northern Expedition and Coastal Class have helipads. But only marginally useful when a boat is somewhere that it is seldom more than 20 minutes from a dock. To say nothing of the difficulties of clearing the space of passengers wanting to take video of the event and post it on Facebook...
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Sept 19, 2018 18:08:38 GMT -8
I think helipads are common because Cruise ships, Northern Adventure, Northern Expedition and Coastal Class have helipads. But only marginally useful when a boat is somewhere that it is seldom more than 20 minutes from a dock. To say nothing of the difficulties of clearing the space of passengers wanting to take video of the event and post it on Facebook... True but I think they would could closed the out decks when they call the Helicopter to get ready for the arrival of it. I think a boat would be be able to get into dock before helicopter arrives on a 20 minutues.
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