PACIFICAT EXPLORER, DISCOVERY, VOYAGER - Photos & Discussion

[Retrovision]

tsawwassenterminal said:

well, here's the link to the CBC story:

www.cbc.ca/bc/story/bc_fastcats20051216.html

In the first paragraph it talks about Duke Point being used:

"The company that bought the three controversial fast ferries has confirmed it's considering putting the catamarans into service between North Vancouver and Duke Point on Vancouver Island."

Duke Point does make some sense, as it sounds like the proposal is for 6 round trips per day, and Duke Point is only used by BCF for about 1/2 an hour out of every 2 1/2 hours during the day. As for a terminal, Duke Point is already built, and BCF is obliged to let competitors use it. Also, (wishful thinking for WMG) Duke Point was originally built to easily accomodate the construction of a second berth (a picture of mine sort of demonstrates this: community.webshots.com/photo/506349204/507750316PsKKGk ).

Now I'm starting to have my doubts, as slight as they may be. On Golbal News last night, a more extensive story was done about these developments, and although there was no mention of the exact location of the Nanaimo-end terminal, they showed the mill on the actual duke pt, not the terminal

[kylefossett]

remember this is still in the study phase. they don't actually plan to run this route until 2007 if they even run it at all

[Retrovision]

kylefossett said:

remember this is still in the study phase. they don't actually plan to run this route until 2007 if they even run it at all

Of course; and as cascade has pointed out, they might just be drumming up some publicity in order to show the ships during the winter months.


"they don't actually plan to run this route until 2007"

I keep on hearing late 2006, for Xmas, but, again, this is probably for publicity, in order to lodge it into peoples minds this Xmas, to be thought about again by the travelling public next Xmas.

Publicity makes the corporate world go 'round.

[Dane]

cascade said:

I really don't think that WMG is out to make money by starting up this service.

I do.

cascade said:

They can re-map the engines so they use less fuel, run them at slower speeds also. But where are the "terminal plugs" - so they can use any of the BCFS terminals. These "plugs cost $70M to design and build, which was done by Sandwell in Vancouver.

I have no idea what the disposition was. One would think they would come with the ships if they're portable. I can't even remember what they look like anymore.

cascade said:

The additional 10tons they have on the bow, plus the additional weight in the stern to balance the vessel out - could be replaced - which would cut out maybe around 15tons - which in theory reduces some of the wake / wash from them - not much...but some.

It'll be interesting to see them at 21 knots. They were operating in excess of 25 when complaints came in from the Bowen residents.

cascade said:

Now on to the Crew - where are they coming from? It has been a few years since they ran - so the crew need to be re-certificated to operate these vessels. Has anyone seen notices asking / looking for crew?

Well seeing as they havent even decided if they're going forward with this yet, one should probably wait before placing crew adds...

[Retrovision]

cascade said:

These FastCats are from the very early 1990's designs - which we view as a cross over between 2nd and 3rd Gen FastCat designs. We are now on the 5th Gen designs - so really who wants a 15 to 20 year old design - which as the World knows - just doesn't work?

I count myself among the masses as a layman when it comes to the 'FastCats' and why they didn't work for BCF, so I was quite surprised to hear something that's been pointed out by the media so little that I had never heard it before:

In that story on Global News that I mentioned before, they played a clip of WMG's CEO Frasher explaining why the cats didn't work for BCFC (I'm paraphrasing a little):

"They (the FastCats) are low in the water, and the goal of catamarans the world over is to get them high out of the water in order to get as little water resistance as possible to achieve the highest speed for the fuel burn.

BCF was stuck with a problem: In order to do what typical catamarans do throughout the world, they would have to build new terminals because they're higher out of the water. They (BCF) decided to build the Cats to match the current terminal configuration. once they did that, they made the ability of the fastcats to sustain high speeds very difficult to do..."



I know how obvious that is, and I vaguely remember hearing that explaination years ago, but it needs to be pointed out how simple the problem is and, therefore, how obvious it must have been from day one at the drawing board to Glen Clark that these ships weren't going to work for their intended purpose/route.

You order a white elephant, you get a white elephant, no matter your intentions or motivation.

BTW, I recently found a pamphlet that I picked up years ago advertising the FastCats while the project was still in its preliminary stages, and I will scan and post it the next chance that I get.

[kylefossett]

if this route is to start in march 2006 then what terminal will they use. right now in this province the construction industry is going crazy busy, so there will be a wait for terminals of there own. these terminals also have to be approved by the right people. this approval could take weeks, months, or even years. so i agree that they will be running in march, march 2007

[Balfour]

There is a shortage of skilled trades people in this province right now.

[Retrovision]

cascade said:

We also need to give a little bit of credit back here. Designers in 1990 - 1993 - really didn't know what they know now about FastFerry performance - weight - hull designs ect...

Earlier you were mentioning that the 'FastCat' design was a crossover between the 2nd and 3rd gen.s of world fastcat designs. I would think that the world's fastcat designers would have found out about such an obvious flaw by the second or third generation of their ships; that being said, was this a sound design to begin with, only to be made unsound with the addition of the bow door (and aft counter-weight)? Or was it that this weight *had* to be added in order to make the FastCats compatible with BCF's terminal congigurations?

cascade said:

...Plus as I have mentioned many times - I don't know of any world credited Naval Designers from BC - who's designs are sold around the world. That is Ferry designs - (slow or fast)

I would also think that if they (or should I say he... i.e. King Clark) truly wanted to inject life into BC's shipbuilding industry, they would have spent the extra money on a sound design. And if a sound design for cats that matched the current terminal config. wasn't found, it seems to me that any prudent investor, polititian or not, would start looking at a different design than a cat (and in the early stages, for that matter, so money isn't wasted on a ship that won't be built).

[Dane]

March 2006 isn't the start date of service.. That's when they decide if they do it.

[BrianWilliams]

A late response to a nice compliment --

"Where else can you find ... a BC historian with an adorable black dog named 'Bo' ..."

Thanks for the mention -- and all the message was exactly right. The eclectic membership of this forum is its strength. The depth of knowledge here is sometimes astounding.

Love of our coast is what brings us all together. So a very Merry Christmas to all BC Ferry enthusiasts!

[Political Incorrectness]

The Pacificats are just one example not to follow and learning from mistakes is very vitale do not put millions of dollars down the drain.

[Ferryman]

That's why David Hahn is being careful this time, by paying only a little bit of money for now ( I forget just how much) to prevent another disaster.

[kylefossett]

the fastcats could have worked. if the ndp was still in power they would not have been sold off for such a cheap price. this was just an example of one gov't trying to make the previous gov't look bad

[Retrovision]

kylefossett said:

the fastcats could have worked. if the ndp was still in power they would not have been sold off for such a cheap price. this was just an example of one gov't trying to make the previous gov't look bad

Finally someone states the obvious! If there's any consolation to us bereaved nautical aficionados, it's that the same sensationalistic news-outlets that Lord Gord was counting on to knock the NDP down to size surely (we hope, unless backroom deals prevail) won't let the BC "Liberals" get out of this one without some bruising.

[markkarj]

So I guess it's pretty safe to say this isn't going ahead. So what's the fate of the cats? Do they just sit on the North Shore? Or will they eventually be recycled for beer cans?

I understand the engines on board could have fetched a fair bit if sold. I think that had been one proposal at the time when the ships were sitting at Deas... sell the high-speed engines, refit with regular engines and propellers rather than water jets, and keep them at conventional speeds.

[Dane]

I know one ship (not sure which one) is suffering from extreme mold. I learned this on the Trains 2007 Layout Tours, one of the homes belonged to the gentlemen charged with overseeing the Fast cats! Apparantly all the interiors are in rough shape although they have recieved very limited attention to the engines. When BC Ferries had the ships they had them in the plastic seel with heaters on 24/7 to ensure these issues don't occur. Alluminum is a bad metal for our weather conditions if it isn't heated and sealed.

[Ferryman]

Here's an interesting article I've found on the net. It was written three and a half years ago, but gives some perspective on to the Pacificat construction. To sumarize it all up, it basically states that the Pacificat Explorer was the worst of the three to be built, and the Pacificat Voyager was the best the best. It was considered to be the best because they learned from all of their mistakes from the first two with them. Have a look.

www.republic-news.org/archive/94-repub/94_potvin_ferries.htm

[ferrytraveller]

i agree with the article. THe first ship had many problems as did the second, this is partly due to the fact that the government kept changing the design before they tested the model and largely due to the shipbuilding industry being use to welding steel, not aluminium. This meant most of the welders had to be re-trained and the welds tested. a costly process. I believe had the 3rd boat been sea trailed and even used. we would have seen more pacific cats and maybe many more exported!

[DENelson83]

So then why not fix up the Pacificat Voyager, sea-trial her and then put her into service on route 10 or route 11?

[Nick]

Umm, maybe because they don't meet TC requirements for those routes? Those routes cross stretches of pretty open water, that even in the summer can be pretty rough. They can't run the Spirits or Cs up there, let alone an aluminum catamaran.

[WettCoast]

I had heard a so-called 'marine expert' on CBC Radio back in the spring of 2006 (in the days following the demise of the QotN) say that a Pacificat could, with relatively minor modifications, operate on the North Coast routes, at least in summer. I have no idea whether he was, in fact, a marine expert, or whether his opinion had any substance. I do know that he was the 'guest' expert on a phone-in segment on Mark Forsythe's program 'Almanac'. The subject under discussion was how to cope with just one boat on the north coast routes during the summer of 2006. He said BC Ferries could have solved the problem with relative ease by putting a fast cat to work.

A fast cat would make short work of the Hecate Strait crossing, if in fact, one was suitable at all.

[Nick]

Hey, to be able to do the inside passage in 8 hours (averaging 34 knots) would be great. Depart at 8am, be in port in time for dinner.

I really don't think they would be capable of handling the seas without extensive modifications. Although really, it's just Queen Charlotte sound that poses an issue.

[Ferryman]

The wake would be way too substantial along the shores, if it were to operate at its normal speed. There's no way the Environmentalists would let that slide.

[WettCoast]

Wake would not be an issue in Hecate St.

[Balfour]

wetcoastkidjst said:

Wake would not be an issue in Hecate St.

Yes, but it would be an issue on the Inside Passage...