rt1commuter
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JP - Overworked grad student
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Post by rt1commuter on Jan 29, 2009 2:27:20 GMT -8
I don't think this has been posted yet... BC Ferries need armed guards: Terrorism expertDustin Walker, Nanaimo Daily News Published: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 NANAIMO, B.C. - BC Ferries needs an armed peace officer on vessels travelling major routes to protect the ships from attack, said a terrorism expert. John Thompson, an analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, said that $5.6 million announced by the federal government earlier this month to beef up security at BC Ferries will do little to prevent an organized attack by terrorists or other assailants. The federal money will likely be used to install perimeter fencing at the ferry terminals, more television monitors and increased employee training in security measures, BC Ferries said. "If they're just talking about new cameras, new lights and new passive defences I don't think much of it," said Thompson, who has researched security on BC Ferries vessels "from a bad guy's point of view." Thompson said these measures will help deter more routine criminal behaviour such as vandalism, but more security is needed in areas such as the bridge to deal with the rare event of a terrorist attack. "That's the one nerve centre where there should be an armed person," he said, adding many ferries in the U.S., such as those in the harbour of New York City, have armed peace officers onboard. Thompson also said that vital areas such as the bridge and engine rooms aren't properly secured. He also thinks more surveillance is needed below decks. "It didn't take much for me to disappear out of sight and go wandering around where I wanted to." BC Ferries spokeswoman Deborah Marshall said the company is already working to enhance security in those areas. That work will continue once BC Ferries finds out exactly which security projects will gain funding from the federal government. Marshall pointed out that the company has a strong working relationship with the RCMP and that costs of having a police officer onboard must be weighed against the risks. "It would certainly be an additional cost, I think we have to weigh the risks. We have over 500 sailings per day throughout the fleet and the majority of those go just fine," she said. BC Ferries announced last November that it was adding patrols of bomb-sniffing dogs at its terminals after a number of bomb threats disrupted service in recent years. Thompson said such measures are needed and improves security significantly. Just the bridge?!? I think there should be an armed guard in every passenger lounge. Big, tough, wearing full combat armor and carrying a large machine gun. He/she could monitor all of the passengers directly, looking out for any deviant behavior such as the wearing of head scarves, the speaking of foreign languages, or walking around the ferry aimlessly. It may seem invasive now, but remember folks, no liberty or freedom is more valuable than your safety.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Jan 29, 2009 11:27:20 GMT -8
Just the bridge?!? I think there should be an armed guard in every passenger lounge. Big, tough, wearing full combat armor and carrying a large machine gun. He/she could monitor all of the passengers directly, looking out for any deviant behavior such as the wearing of head scarves, the speaking of foreign languages, or walking around the ferry aimlessly. It may seem invasive now, but remember folks, no liberty or freedom is more valuable than your safety. Marzipan on Toast... that sounds like the kind of bed time snack that will give you nightmares. Seriously... what's the point? Ask again the questions, why would any terrorist target the ferries...? What message will they send by doing so? What damage do they think they could inflict on our beloved way of life? If fear and terror are their weapons, they've already done their job nicely be motivating someone into enough uncertainty to even make these recommendations. Then, while we're all focused putting armed guards on the ferries, are attention will be divided enough that they can attack something really important unnoticed. How many years has it been since September 11th, 2001, and we still haven't grown up. While some people attend think tanks to come up with big ideas, it seems there are also some who like to attack other people's time and lives by coming up with small ideas. Perhaps we should be more worried about the people making these recommendations and then implementing them being terrorists, because if they are the ones who devise a security plan, they will also know how to foil it, so are we sure we can really trust them anyway? On a plane, I can understand the Sky Marshall standing by to keep the plane from getting blown up. We've seen that it is a danger, and we know how easy it is for a plane to go down and kill everyone. For a ferry... i don't believe the risk is so extreme, and it would be harder to attack a ferry and not get noticed. Unlike a plane, where even blowing a small hole in it can be catastrophic, you'd need a much bigger bomb to do serious damage to a ferry, and a ferry is never as far away from assistance as a plane is at thirty-thousand feet, so surely any potential threat would get noticed before it got dangerous. But I still don't know who would want to attack a ferry, or why. For consideration, there was a threatening message left on a washroom mirror aboard WSF's Hyak yesterday which prompted an evacuation. So far, all we know, is that Bremerton ferry service was interrupted for two hours. Somebody probably had a good laugh. Personally I think it's more likely someone might look into the mirror the wrong way, and feel disturbed by their own reflection after they've been delayed two hours by a joker writing things on the mirror. On second thought... my inability to type clearly might be evidence to confirm just how easy it is to create a misunderstanding that could lead to suspicious activity. I now submit another healthy column by our good friend Jack Knox.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 29, 2009 11:56:26 GMT -8
It's always a good idea to look into the background of people or organizations that make recommendations like this, to get some perspective and context.
The MacKenzie Institute has been described as a right wing, conservative lobby group, and from what I can tell, it looks like they generally favor an aggressive anti-terrorist stance against what they see as pervasive and universal security threats. If you read some of their commentaries, you see an obsession with perceived dangers from Islamic immigrants, and people from many middle eastern nations.
This does not seem to be a group that looks calmly and objectively at terrorism and security issues. They have a very strong pro-active attitude, and while their viewpoint has a place, we have to recognize their bias.
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Jan 29, 2009 12:08:25 GMT -8
It's always a good idea to look into the background of people or organizations that make recommendations like this, to get some perspective and context. The MacKenzie Institute has been described as a right wing, conservative lobby group, and from what I can tell, it looks like they generally favor an aggressive anti-terrorist stance against what they see as pervasive and universal security threats. If you read some of their commentaries, you see an obsession with perceived dangers from Islamic immigrants, and people from many middle eastern nations. This does not seem to be a group that looks calmly and objectively at terrorism and security issues. They have a very strong pro-active attitude, and while their viewpoint has a place, we have to recognize their bias. Hmmmm... now if I go check out The MacKenzie Institute, are they going trace my IP and put me on some kind of watch-list?
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
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Post by Nick on Jan 29, 2009 12:27:01 GMT -8
Another fantastic article by Jack Knox. Thanks for posting that, Mill Bay.
When I first read that article, I scoffed out loud. Now that I think about it more, it seems even more ridiculous. Armed guards on ferries? What a joke. Now, last I heard BCF was still planning on installing key card access to the bridge and engine room on board the ships, where only employees with encoded ID cards will be able to gain access. I really don't think we need anything more than that, and even that seems a bit overboard.
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Jan 29, 2009 13:10:16 GMT -8
It is nice to see something coming from the Tyee that is actual fact... BC Ferries search for contractors to run routes sinksBy Andrew MacLeod January 28, 2009 11:48 am The latest attempt by B.C. Ferry Services Inc. to contract out routes has finished without finding a company to take over the service.
The Coastal Ferry Act, made law by the B.C. Liberal government in 2003, requires B.C. Ferries to seek “alternative service providers” who can provide safe, reliable and quality service, possibly at a lower cost, on routes now served by the publicly owned private company.
In August, 2008, B.C. Ferries released a Request for Expressions of Interest for companies to run ferry routes between Campbell River and Quadra Island, Quadra and Cortes Islands and Port McNeill, Sointula and Alert Bay.
“No respondent to the RFEOI has elected to proceed to the next phase and the process for seeking ASPs for these routes is, therefore, now complete,” B.C. Ferries vice president and corporate secretary Cynthia Lukaitis wrote in a January 26 letter to ferry commissioner Martin Crilly. Crilly is responsible for regulating ferry operators and to “encourage” the contracting out of routes.
“BC Ferries will continue to be the provider of service on these routes,” wrote Lukaitis.
Andrew MacLeod is The Tyee’s Legislative Bureau Chief in Victoria.Article located here.
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Jan 29, 2009 13:56:15 GMT -8
Wow.... big surprise there. So people DO know that those runs can't be run for a profit...
I wonder (rhetorically) if they'll ever put routes 1, 2, or 30 out for tender... oh wait, they can make a profit on those.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 29, 2009 14:33:07 GMT -8
Hmmmm... now if I go check out The MacKenzie Institute, are they going trace my IP and put me on some kind of watch-list? Sorry to tell you this, but they're ahead of you. Under a section on their website called ' terrorist profiles'. they had a heading, 'Typical pale, lean and hungry middle eastern terrorist masquerading as innocent caucasian ferry fan', and the photo was.... migawd- Mill Bay! It is nice to see something coming from the Tyee that is actual fact... Don't know why, but the older I get, the less 'actual facts' I see... The Tyee seems to have ticked a number of people on this forum off with their reporting on the Coastals. I'm not sure why. A fair bit of what they've reported could indeed pass for 'factual'- some of it has been based on BC Ferries' own memos and figures. A lot more has been interpretation, and reporting on claims and allegations by people who have at least some credibility. In some cases they've been plain wrong. CanWest donates money to the Liberals at election time, and they certainly do not provide the opposition media watchdog role that the Tyee does. Think the Tyee has an agenda, or that they twist the facts? If the NDP were in power, and BC Ferries had spent over half a billion dollars on ferries that were only being used part time, the CanWest organs would be screaming bloody murder and running film of seagulls frightened away by the ' Renaissance's prop wash. The Tyee doesn't always get it right, but they're probably as dependable as any media source when it comes to BC Ferries.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Jan 29, 2009 16:31:37 GMT -8
Hmmmm... now if I go check out The MacKenzie Institute, are they going trace my IP and put me on some kind of watch-list? Sorry to tell you this, but they're ahead of you. Under a section on their website called ' terrorist profiles'. they had a heading, 'Typical pale, lean and hungry middle eastern terrorist masquerading as innocent caucasian ferry fan', and the photo was.... migawd- Mill Bay! Ya think, Neal...? I'm not sure how I feel about that kind of impersonation... would that be the prominent portrait of Sir Alexander Mackenzie that is featured on their site...? I must also admit, that I had feared the site was somehow committed to former prime minister W.L. Mackenzie-King, and that I was somehow going to become part of a seance, or that maybe that was where the institute was getting the information. I just don't think it's fair to David Thompson either... if Alexander Mackenzie gets an institute named after him, than it should stand to reason, Thompson deserves to have one as well.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 29, 2009 17:32:22 GMT -8
Ya think, Neal...? I'm not sure how I feel about that kind of impersonation... would that be the prominent portrait of Sir Alexander Mackenzie that is featured on their site...? I must also admit, that I had feared the site was somehow committed to former prime minister W.L. Mackenzie-King, and that I was somehow going to become part of a seance, or that maybe that was where the institute was getting the information. I just don't think it's fair to David Thompson either... if Alexander Mackenzie gets an institute named after him, than it should stand to reason, Thompson deserves to have one as well. Or maybe it's named after the other Alex MacKenzie, our country's 2nd Prime Minister (thanks to the Pacific Scandal and Hugh Allan). ....oh wait, which tangent we were going-off on? Yeah, Mill Bay the threat: I think his negative-views of the Spirit ships are well known to all. I've already sold his IP history to CSIS.
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Post by Ferryman on Jan 31, 2009 2:10:38 GMT -8
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 3, 2009 11:07:10 GMT -8
That "Terrorism Expert" is an idiot. For many years there has been an emergency plan in place which presumes a group of terrorists takes over a ferry. I was present at one of the exercises a few years ago. I will not reveal what it involves here for obvious reasons. The only real threat is from bombs which would probably be vehicle bombs and the defence against that is dogs in the parking lot and the hope that anti terrorist forces would get wind of any plot before it could be put into action.
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Post by Balfour on Feb 3, 2009 12:40:04 GMT -8
That "Terrorism Expert" is an idiot. For many years there has been an emergency plan in place which presumes a group of terrorists takes over a ferry. I was present at one of the exercises a few years ago. I will not reveal what it involves here for obvious reasons. The only real threat is from bombs which would probably be vehicle bombs and the defence against that is dogs in the parking lot and the hope that anti terrorist forces would get wind of any plot before it could be put into action. I think this so called "Terrorism Expert" is full of it. He's of the opinion that the only way to prevent terrorist attacks is to beef up security at the ferries up to an airport style standard which is not really true. It's good that BCF has a plan for just in case a scenario arises, however having metal detectors and peace officers for security would do more harm than good for BC Ferries. Those kind of things would want to make more people avoid the ferry. Having fencing and security guards makes sense for reasons such keeping the public out of unauthorized areas and to prevent fare evasion.
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Post by Hardy on Feb 3, 2009 18:43:19 GMT -8
As the VTC column quote also points out, "Fear Mongering" is an industry in and of itself. Armed maritime marshals? Nah. The occasional "undercover" (or plainclothes) BCF "security" employee or even RCMP officer? Sure, why not -- and how do we know they are not out there already?
To that end, what is to say that there are not armed security forces out there already? I myself do not have a CCW permit, but I am usually wearing a windbreaker or other bulky top clothing; frequently carrying a backpack. I could very easily be holstering a semi-auto pistol under my clothing, or even have a submachine gun in my backpack (I have tried a replica HK MP-5K in it and there is PLENTY-O room....); 30 rd 9mm banana clip, collapsible stock, flash suppressor ... I could chew through the food line up on a Spirit in 2-3 clips, take out the catering staff in under another 30 rds, and then still charge up the bridge with 10 or so more clips left in my backpack...
Of course, the old yellow Ryder truck of Oklahoma City infamy would still be parked on the MCD full of it's deadly cargo of drums of diesel fuel, sacks of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and cases of nails ....
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 3, 2009 19:00:31 GMT -8
If you really wanted to do some damage and get attention just plant explosives on the millionaire's highway ( aka. sea to sky) and wipe out a bunch of tourists while blocking access to the games. There are all sorts of scenarios and the only real defence against them is to find out about them before they happen.
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Post by DENelson83 on Feb 3, 2009 21:00:52 GMT -8
SHHHHHHHHHHHH! Don't give them any ideas!
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Post by Esquimalt Queen on Feb 7, 2009 11:03:05 GMT -8
Someone at work stuck this to my locker... I'm not sure what newspaper it is from, or what date it was published but it's a letter to the editor from that John Thompson fella. (From a quick glance, I thought the headline said Ferries are Terrorist Treats)
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 8, 2009 10:22:21 GMT -8
He was fired some time ago for putting up what he thought was a "prank" poster suggesting someone pie Mr. Hahn. The union tried to defend him but was unsuccessful. It may just be co-incidental that he was also a strong union supporter and quite outspoken.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 8, 2009 12:47:54 GMT -8
He was fired some time ago for putting up what he thought was a "prank" poster suggesting someone pie Mr. Hahn. The union tried to defend him but was unsuccessful. It may just be co-incidental that he was also a strong union supporter and quite outspoken. Anything that suggests violence or harassment (and that's what throwing a pie in someone's face is) against a co-worker is inappropriate for a workplace. Joking or not. In this case, being a union supporter and being outspoken would just be co-incidental. Good thing that the union was unsuccessful in grieving his termination.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 8, 2009 13:31:47 GMT -8
He was fired some time ago for putting up what he thought was a "prank" poster suggesting someone pie Mr. Hahn. The union tried to defend him but was unsuccessful. It may just be co-incidental that he was also a strong union supporter and quite outspoken. Anything that suggests violence or harassment (and that's what throwing a pie in someone's face is) against a co-worker is inappropriate for a workplace. Joking or not. In this case, being a union supporter and being outspoken would just be co-incidental. Good thing that the union was unsuccessful in grieving his termination. If someone is going to be vocal and stand out then they should have the brains to know what they do will be noticed. Too often strong union supporters forget they are there for the good of the whole of the workers. Being on the constant anti-management bandwagon is a shortsighted way of fostering us vs. them that is good for the union only in the shortterm. It forgets that all the constant negativity makes the workplace a much less pleasant place to be and harder for the average guy to do his job properly. It starts the downward spiral that results in worsening relations. And of course the union blames the management for it all ignoring their role in it, in a self serving way. Everyone makes mistakes and there should be room for some forgiveness. However, when it is part of a pattern, or the person thinks because of their union affiliation they are teflon and can get away therefore with unacceptable actions, or the seriousness of the situation goes beyond a reasonable level, then action should be taken. I doubt the full story on this particular case was aired publically, nor should it.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 8, 2009 14:40:30 GMT -8
He was fired some time ago for putting up what he thought was a "prank" poster suggesting someone pie Mr. Hahn. The union tried to defend him but was unsuccessful. It may just be co-incidental that he was also a strong union supporter and quite outspoken. I know we have 'invisible users', but do we have invisible posts as well? I don't see the one this seems to be replying to.
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Post by Taxman on Feb 8, 2009 18:27:11 GMT -8
IIRC, the poster was aboard ship.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 8, 2009 22:23:39 GMT -8
IIRC, the poster was aboard ship. ...which has... what to do with my question?
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 9, 2009 5:37:37 GMT -8
Yup, I quite agree, it was a dumb thing to do. The union, by law, must defend all its' members equally.
That newspaper cutting is from the Times Colonist
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 9, 2009 7:07:36 GMT -8
Kerry:
Are you saying that John Thompson of the MacKenzie Institute is the pie-poster guy?
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