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Post by Hardy on Nov 20, 2007 9:44:18 GMT -8
I'll risk getting locked and redirected, as I searched and could not find this answer anywhere Why are certain vessels assigned to Rte-30? I know the main vessels, QoNW & QoA, are designed for the route with their additional overheight capacity and more powerful engines. But how are replacement vessels allocated? I know that there is a toss up as to whether the V-class is QoVan or QoEsq (QoSaa has made a guest appearance or two, but very infrequently). This makes sense as the QoSaa is better appointed inside and therefore more preferrable on Rte-1. QoVan is in better shape than QoEsq and those two are therefore a crap shoot - keep the QoVan on Rte-1 for it's appeal, or put it on Rte-30 because it has a better chance of survival? Where I am looking for some input and clarification is regarding the C-class replacement vessel. As far as I can remember and ascertain, it does not matter what shuffling has to occur, but it always seems to be the QoCoq that ends up as the Rte-30 vessel. This confuses me, especially on this latest change over. The QoCow just came back out of a mini-refit but they still ended up swapping vessels. Would it not have made more sense to plug the QoCow into Rte-30 and leave the QoCoq on Rte-2? Or am I missing a finer point somewhere that I have overlooked? Has the QoCoq been modified in some way, or is there some advantage to the QoCoq over her sisters that makes her more suited for running Rte-30?. It is safe to assume that QoSur stays on Rte-3 unless she is out for maintenace. So why don't we see the QoOB on Rte-30? So, to reiterate my question, in case it got lost -- what dictates which vessels run Rte-30? Is there something special about the QoCoq that she ends up being shipped over to Rte-30 as a replacement vessel more often than any other?
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Post by Hardy on Nov 20, 2007 9:47:30 GMT -8
Bonus question/observation on my own thread:
At current, both regular Rte-30 vessels are out in refit ... Queen of New Westminster - being replaced by Queen of Esquimalt Queen of Alberni - being replaced by Queen of Coquitlam
We had this operational status before and it generated a lot of conversation in "Ferries Busy" when there were consistant overloads on Rte-30. Luckily this time we are in the winter season and this should not be quite so exacerbated as it was last time. That being said, I anticipate that we are going to have capacity issues again on this route due to the two primary vessels being out of service at the same time.
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Post by Dane on Nov 20, 2007 12:13:10 GMT -8
Coquitlam didn't recieve all the upgrades the other three primary C's did, so she's always the "spare," and thus utilized as such on Rte 30 replacements.
That's my understanding, anyways.
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Post by hergfest on Nov 20, 2007 12:31:03 GMT -8
The Cow is the regular Route 2 vessel, so they always leave her there. And the Vancouver is kept at Tsa for an additional boat for Route 1 if they need the capacity, while the Esquimalt is the spare V for vessel refits.
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 20, 2007 13:00:35 GMT -8
Let me give a bit of insight into the Queen of Coquitlam over the past 5 years.
I can remember pre 2003, that the Coquitlam was always used as a spare as well, so this is not a recent thing. Once the summer of 2003 came around, the "new" Queen of Coquitlam was unveiled after the Mid Life Refit, being the first of the five to get this upgrade. This refit was $18 million. She was put on Route 2 in the Oak Bays position, and everyone was amazed at this new interior we were seeing. The Oak Bay was given the "mule" position once this had happened, and she was used on Route 3 and 30 at times as well. A few months after the Coquitlam returned to service, BC Ferries announced that the Cowichan was next, and the budget for the project would double to $36 million. The Oak Bay assumed the position of the Cowichan until she returned to service in June 2004. It wasn't until June 2005 when the Oak Bay retured from her Mid Life refit, and the 'Coquitlam was given her "mule" status once again. The other 4 C-Class upgrades ended up costing around $40 million to do. So it's safe to say that the 'Coquitlam recieved a cosmetic upgrade.
By September 2003, just 2 months after returning from that Mid Life, she had to make a trip to Deas, and was limping on Route 2 for the final couple weeks of the summer, as she only had one of two engines working. There was also some controversy over the Marine Evacuation Chutes with elderly folks, and Women who her pregnant. BC Ferries actually then limited the amount of Elderly folks and Pregnant women to board the 'Coquitlam, as they could only fit a few on to the two zodiaks. This quick repair trip became another another refit, as it almost seemed as if they forgot to think of the safety with the evacuation system. Some inflatable rafts in those boxes are now stashed on the outer decks for people suchs as pregnant women, and elderly folk. Passenger deck windows located right below the davits which launch the Zodiaks and inflatable rafts were quietly covered up in this refit. The seats beside these new long blank walls were the last seats to be filled up with people. She remained like this until the following annual refit in 2004, when BC Ferries discovered modern versions of Fire Proof windows. These are the windows we tend to hate, especially on the Queen of Tsawwassen. If you have a weak stomach, I wouldn't recommend you look out these windows to watch the scenery go by, as they're like circus mirrors, but as windows.
In conclusion, there seems to be a trend with BC Ferries where the oldest of the Class of Ferries will be treated the worst, and then retired first. Some examples: Queen of Sidney, Queen of Victoria, Albert J. Savoie. I've even seen the Spirit of British Columbia look scruffier than the Spirit of Vancouver Island at times as well.
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Post by Hardy on Nov 20, 2007 15:22:39 GMT -8
The Cow is the regular Route 2 vessel, so they always leave her there. And the Vancouver is kept at Tsa for an additional boat for Route 1 if they need the capacity, while the Esquimalt is the spare V for vessel refits. Thanks for information. I am aware that the Esq is the "dog" of the fleet and gets kicked around to where-ever they tend to need her on whatever "fill-in" basis. She has spent a lot of time lately as a replacement tug on Rte-30 and for the most part seems to "schedule-wise" do rather well. Her limiting factor on this route is not necessarily her speed (although that is not one of her strong points) but her lack of overheight capacity.
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Post by Hardy on Nov 20, 2007 15:29:18 GMT -8
Let me give a bit of insight into the Queen of Coquitlam over the past 5 years. Thanks for the detail into this situation. When we see the lesser dollar value put into the upgrades, do we know where the scrimping and saving was? Was the QoCoq's upgrade merely cosmetic? I do not ask this as a rhetorical question. I believe that we all know that as time has gone by that the "cosmetic" part of these upgrades can suck up a rather large and disproportionate share of the actual refit dollars. This being the case, is there any documentation of the mechanical & structural 'welfare' of the C-class boats? I know that there has been a lot talked about with regards to the V/B-class boats, and the mechanical and structural shortcomings thereof.
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Post by kylefossett on Nov 20, 2007 16:09:21 GMT -8
Vessel placement has to do with available vessels and which vessels the crew are familiar with.
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Post by Hardy on Nov 20, 2007 16:55:13 GMT -8
Vessel placement has to do with available vessels and which vessels the crew are familiar with. This of course, goes without saying. That is the good thing between the Alberni and any of her sisters. This notwithstanding, I pose one of my initial questions again ... QoCow came out of refit and steamed over to Departure Bay to replace QoCoq. At the same time (or slightly thereafter, due to reprovisioning) the QoCoq went to Duke Point to replace the QoA. Rather than do this double switcheroo, why not sub the QoCow for the QoA directly? There is no argument that the QoCow and QoCoq are currently two of the MORE identical ships in the BCFS fleet. Chris may have had the most convincing set of facts so far with regards to the "dollar store upgrade" that QoCoq got in comparison to QoCow. We haven't ripped any decks or amenties out of either boat so far, so .... In any case, while more informed than I was before, I am still somewhat in the dark in regards to BCFS vessel assignments and placement.
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Post by Hardy on Nov 20, 2007 16:58:00 GMT -8
Just as I anticipated, we are having o/h capacity issues out of Duke Point. As at 1510, the next 3 sailings were all but filled up (98% and 95%) in terms of MCD (ie o/h) space.
I can only wait and see how this will continue to affect this route in the absense of Alberni and New West.
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Post by Hardy on Nov 20, 2007 17:04:48 GMT -8
Quick note to my above post: I am getting my information from the CURRENT CONDITIONS page, and saving time, rather than clicking on each of the next three displayed sailings, there is a little trick to reading what %age of deck space is allocated... mouse over the sailing that you want information on (ie its time). In the bar at the bottom of your browser, read the last 3 numbers that are displayed in the link bar .... for example, currently off of the 11:50PM Duke-Tsa .... shown as 35% full ... the link shows this: orca.bcferries.com:8080/cc/conditions/sailingDetail.asp?route=30&dept=DUK&ID=2350&est=35,69,1 note the last three numbers .... 35 - 69 - 1 35% is the total capacity used 69% is MCD space used (o/h space) 1% is the UCD space used (note: for smaller routes, -1 as the last number indicates that there is no UCD) Hope someone else finds this information useful for quickly seeing what is going on rather than clicking thru a bunch of screens .....
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Nov 20, 2007 17:15:10 GMT -8
Rather than do this double switcheroo, why not sub the QoCow for the QoA directly? The Cowichan is Departure Bay's boat... The crew lockers, and most of their personal material remain on her. There is also a personal connection and a sense of pride with your home vessel, thus they maintain her to a higher extent. Her regular crew (especially the engineers) would not like to see their main boat moved around to another terminal where she will be treated differently...
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Post by kylefossett on Nov 20, 2007 17:26:04 GMT -8
Rather than do this double switcheroo, why not sub the QoCow for the QoA directly? The Cowichan is Departure Bay's boat... The crew lockers, and most of their personal material remain on her. There is also a personal connection and a sense of pride with your home vessel, thus they maintain her to a higher extent. Her regular crew (especially the engineers) would not like to see their main boat moved around to another terminal where she will be treated differently... Also the vessels may look the same to our eyes but they have small differences in them that could become life or death differences when it comes to emergencies. Most of the Queen of Alberni crew have operated the Queen of Coquitlam before so have knowledge of the layout of fire hoses, life jackets, etc. The Queen of Cowichan may have a different layout so the crew is not aware of the layout. I remember talking to one of my connections on the Queen of Nanaimo once and this person mentioned that if they ever went to work on the Queen of Burnaby they would take the 3 day familiarization time they are alloted and use it. This person has worked on the Queen of Burnaby before but that was over 15 yrs ago. There are small differences when it comes to operations and safety stuff on all the vessels even though they are "sister vessels"
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,187
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Post by Neil on Nov 20, 2007 22:33:18 GMT -8
Some trivia: Today, the 'Esquimalt did one sailing at the advertised 2 hrs, 20 mins., but did five sailings at an average 2:11. The 'Coquitlam has averaged 2:03. I've noticed that other days as well, that the old V often doesn't actually take 2:20- so she's not as much a drag on the schedule as one might think.
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Post by ferryes on Dec 15, 2007 20:23:24 GMT -8
Has the Oak Bay been on rte 30 before(question mark)
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Post by DENelson83 on Dec 15, 2007 21:43:46 GMT -8
Quick note to my above post: I am getting my information from the CURRENT CONDITIONS page, and saving time, rather than clicking on each of the next three displayed sailings, there is a little trick to reading what %age of deck space is allocated... mouse over the sailing that you want information on (ie its time). In the bar at the bottom of your browser, read the last 3 numbers that are displayed in the link bar .... for example, currently off of the 11:50PM Duke-Tsa .... shown as 35% full ... the link shows this: orca.bcferries.com:8080/cc/conditions/sailingDetail.asp?route=30&dept=DUK&ID=2350&est=35,69,1 note the last three numbers .... 35 - 69 - 1 35% is the total capacity used 69% is MCD space used (o/h space) 1% is the UCD space used (note: for smaller routes, -1 as the last number indicates that there is no UCD) Hope someone else finds this information useful for quickly seeing what is going on rather than clicking thru a bunch of screens ..... Does MCD stand for "middle car deck" and UCD stand for "upper car deck"? And if that's the case, shouldn't the MCD actually be the LCD? Edit: Oh, "main car deck!" I get you now.
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Post by shipyard on Dec 15, 2007 23:48:23 GMT -8
Yes, Oak Bay filled in on the run shortly before her MLU.
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Post by Ferryman on Jan 7, 2008 19:18:48 GMT -8
Would just like to put a note on this, just to put a bug in everyones ear.....I know this has sort of been touched upon in another thread, but I just can't find it right now.....
-On March 1st, the Alberni switches her home port to Tsawwassen. The Esquimalt will then serve as the Duke Point based vessel until the Coastal Inspiration comes into service sometime in April (?)
I'm still having a hard time trying to figure out where the Queen of New Westminster will be once she's back from her big refit. I've had a glance at the Easter Long weekend, and all I can find is the usual vessels running in the usual spots on the Long Weekend.
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Post by Balfour on Jan 7, 2008 19:24:59 GMT -8
My best guess would be that the New West will end up as the TSA based vessel on route 1.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Jan 7, 2008 20:38:16 GMT -8
I think that the New West will take the Vancouver's position as the No. 2 route 1 vessel from Tsawwassen. The Van would then be spare, or would take the place of the Saanich, which would become spare.
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Post by Dane on Jan 7, 2008 21:35:01 GMT -8
I would agree with Jordan's guess. It would seem by placing the Alberni at Tsa for 01 Mar, if it happens, than we BCFS is serious about getting the V's off line when the New West gets back. All going well the CI, as Chris mentioned should be in place and operating before the New West is out of her refit. Good bye Vancouver, I would imagine.
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Post by Nickfro on Jan 7, 2008 21:36:55 GMT -8
Might this be the first summer season for us to see 3 different ferries running on Route 30? If so, that would be a likely placement for the QoNW since it operates at a faster service speed than the Saanich and Vancouver. It would then run on Route 1 for the fall/winter/spring period.
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Post by Dane on Jan 7, 2008 21:45:32 GMT -8
Might this be the first summer season for us to see 3 different ferries running on Route 30? If so, that would be a likely placement for the QoNW since it operates at a faster service speed than the Saanich and Vancouver. It would then run on Route 1 for the fall/winter/spring period. Perhaps the first for those of us that haven't been watching BC Ferrries for 20 years but there has been occasion for three vessel types I believe? There is if you consider the Alberni a creature unto herself pre-lifting, which would be logical since we consider the New West similarly. For the average passenger, I don't think it's going to make much of a difference (Notwithstanding the interior). It's sort of like a BMW, they all look the same, just one has twice the guts under the hood.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Jan 7, 2008 21:52:20 GMT -8
I would agree with Jordon's guess. OOPS! I think you meant "Jordan". Meanwhile, up there in North Vancouver under the great mountains, what's being done on the QUEEN OF NEW WESTMINSTER for her transfer to the TSA-SWB run?
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Post by Balfour on Jan 7, 2008 21:55:44 GMT -8
I would agree with Jordon's guess. OOPS! I think you meant "Jordan". Exactly why I modified that post...
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