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Post by Ferryman on Jul 7, 2010 15:25:44 GMT -8
Mr. Mill Bay,
You have clearly found your niche....bridge architecture. Look into taking some engineering and design courses, and design us some beautiful bridges, for a price that the province would be willing to pay.
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Post by Kahloke on Jul 19, 2010 11:59:59 GMT -8
The two Tacoma Narrows Bridges as seen from Point Defiance in Tacoma:
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Post by EGfleet on Jul 19, 2010 14:01:06 GMT -8
The two Tacoma Narrows Bridges as seen from Point Defiance in Tacoma: Great photo! Having grown up on the Kitsap Peninsula...it's still kind of odd to see two bridges on the Narrows.
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Post by lmtengs on Jul 19, 2010 17:34:02 GMT -8
Here's a nice bridge: soon to be opened, this bridge will take all through-traffic off the Hoover Dam. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_O'Callaghan_%E2%80%93_Pat_Tillman_Memorial_Bridge
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CFG
Deckhand
I used to be indecisive. Now I'm not sure.
Posts: 64
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Post by CFG on Jul 20, 2010 18:04:05 GMT -8
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Jul 20, 2010 20:59:07 GMT -8
Interesting, but sad for the poor neglected, misunderstood and soon to be discarded old bridge.
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Post by lmtengs on Jul 21, 2010 15:56:16 GMT -8
That's really cool! How did they move it? Did they use a similar process that they use when they launch ships, or did they just get a giant puller to drag the deck over onto the new pilings?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 31, 2010 8:04:04 GMT -8
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Post by Kahloke on Jul 31, 2010 9:34:29 GMT -8
I love going over the Deception Pass Bridge. Thanks for posting the article.
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Post by Kahloke on Jul 31, 2010 11:04:44 GMT -8
Another article on another great bridge, this one in Victoria. Apparently, the powers-that-be are at a bit of a crossroads concerning this bridge's future. Deadline looms for Johnson Street Bridge You have until Aug. 10 to tell Victoria council whether to replace or refurbish the Johnson Street Bridge. So why are residents and businesses so apathetic? By Bill Cleverley, Times Colonist July 31, 2010
Engineers have told the city to repair it or replace it -- or be prepared to shut it down within two years.
The 86-year-old Johnson Street bridge will collapse in an earthquake of any significance, they say. Its electrical and mechanical systems are obsolete and could fail at any time. There's extensive corrosion and rust on the steel structure.
At an estimated $77 million to $80 million to replace or repair the bridge, the project is the largest ever contemplated by the City of Victoria. Closing the bridge would shut down a major transportation link into the city, which sees 30,000 trips every day, and would leave only the Point Ellice Bridge on Bay Street as a direct link to Vic West, Esquimalt and the West Shore.
But the project is seemingly being met with a collective yawn by both residents and businesses. "The Blue Bridge is like electricity. You don't know it's gone until it's not there anymore," says Bruce Carter, CEO of the Greater Victoria Chamber of Commerce.
The lack of public interest is puzzling. In less than two weeks, on Aug. 12, Victoria city councillors will make a critical decision: build a new bridge or refurbish the existing span.
City staff have been in full public engagement mode -- hosting open houses, mailing surveys, conducting bridge tours -- to gather information to help councillors make a decision, but they're not getting far.
Fewer than 100 people toured the bridge over a recent weekend and so far, just 1,200 of 25,000 surveys sent out to Victoria households have been returned. On Thursday, in a bid to get more feedback, the city extended its deadline to Aug. 10 for the completed surveys.
Compare that to just six months ago, when almost 10,000 voters signed a petition demanding a referendum on financing for the project.
The petition was led by johnsonstreetbridge.org,
a group unhappy with city council's handling of the bridge project. In a decision hurried to take advantage of federal/provincial funding, council voted in April 2009 to replace the bridge without, the group argued, adequately studying the possibility of refurbishing it instead.
It was the first time in the city's history that residents successfully used the Alternative Approval Process, more commonly known as a counter-petition. Organizers needed to get 10 per cent of Victoria's 63,426 eligible voters to sign the document; they got 9,872, or about 15 per cent.
The petition was, according to Norman Ruff, University of Victoria political scientist emeritus, "symbolic of the public wanting to take back the local government agenda. The bridge has come to symbolize making the City of Victoria more responsive."
In the face of the petition, and because the funding the city wanted didn't come through, councillors agreed to spend several months and $840,000 to comprehensively study whether to replace or repair the bridge.
That is the decision council will make Aug. 12. Then voters will be asked in a November referendum to approve borrowing for the selected option, minus a $21-million grant from the federal government. (The city is restricted by legislation to asking voters for approval to borrow, not whether they favour refurbishment or replacement.)
If the referendum fails, the city estimates taxes would have to go up about 14 per cent to finance the project, or the bridge could close.
So why aren't Victoria residents fired up? Perhaps after having already stopped council's plans, they've already made up their minds, Ruff suggests.
"It's a question of whether they're prepared to consider the options with an open mind," he says.
In addition to sending surveys to households, the city has had Ipsos Reid conduct telephone polls of 600 residents and 250 businesses to gauge public opinion about the best option. The results will be provided to councillors prior to Aug. 12.
Polls conducted in May found the bridge was ranked as an important issue by only one per cent of the local business community -- far behind issues like homelessness, panhandlers, taxes, parking, and crime and safety.
Eleven per cent of residents polled ranked it as the most important local issue, but a far greater number --44 per cent -- rated social issues such as homelessness and drugs higher.
Coun. Chris Coleman says people seem to be more concerned about increasing taxes than the bridge itself. While there is a concern the bridge is "looming," that concern is focused on the effect on tax rates, especially just after the implementation of the HST, he says. "People are going: 'Life is costing us more money.' "
As for businesses, Carter has scheduled a special session for Aug. 4 to try to stir interest among the chamber's membership. The city estimates the economic impact to the downtown of closing the bridge for a year -- the length of time required by the rehabilitation option -- would be
$13 million. (The replacement option would result in a much shorter closure, perhaps only a few days, because the old bridge would not be taken down until the new one is ready.)
Meanwhile, Ruff says the real story of how the public is feeling might not be told until November, during the referendum on financing. "I guess it's a case of whether they believe the council or if they'll use it as an occasion to punish them," he says.
bcleverley@tc.canwest.comwww.timescolonist.com/news/Deadline+looms+Johnson+Street+Bridge/3346479/story.html
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Post by lmtengs on Jul 31, 2010 11:57:47 GMT -8
I say retrofit the bridge to meet current earthquake standards. The Johnston Street Bridge is a Victoria landmark, almost as much as the Empress or the BC Legislature are. I can't imagine the Blue Bridge being replaced by anything else, especially a cable-stayed hulk.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Jul 31, 2010 13:19:52 GMT -8
See, I am completely the opposite. I think the current structure is functional, if not rather ugly. It is a Victoria landmark, but does that mean that a new bridge can't be?
Considering that the revised cost estimates put the refurbishment option $20 million more than a replacement, as well as having a longer, more intrusive construction period, I think that replacement is the best option by far. Many people in Victoria are rather miffed at the fact that the City has to foot the bill on it's own though, especially since the bridge is used by many people coming to work from Esquimalt, and therefore don't directly pay Victoria taxes.
Personally, I think the whole bridge issue has brought to light the need to amalgamate some of the various district, town, and city councils in the area. Serving an area of 350,000 people, we have no less than 13 different municipal governments, each providing their own services. As well, the capital regional district (CRD) oversees SOME of the services and adds another layer of government.
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Quatchi
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Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
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Post by Quatchi on Jul 31, 2010 18:18:32 GMT -8
Replace it! It will be more functional It will cost less now and later It will be safer It will last longer It will be less intrusive As for Victoria whining about having to foot the bill, to bad. I'm sure there are Victorians that work in Esquimalt. And all those people that live in Esquimalt and use the bridge to get to work, work for companies that pay taxes in Victoria. Each township is responsible for their own property, whether they like it or not. I cant exactly expect my neighbor to pay to replace my broken front door on my house, just because he comes through it once in a while. I agree that replacing the bridge is the best option, I also think Victoria shouldn't be able to offload the bill onto Esquimalt. As for my favorite bridge, there is a bridge in the Yukon on the Alaska highway about half way between Watson lake and Whitehorse, so about 3 hours from nowhere in both directions, and its is made up of 10 or so 150 foot spans, it is all wood and is very cool as it winds over the shallow lake it spans. www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/eagle46/1/1218259200/longest-bridge-on-the-alaska-highway.jpg/tpod.htmlCheers,
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Jul 31, 2010 22:02:17 GMT -8
Are you sure that's a wood span bridge? The photo looks exactly like the Nisutlin Bay bridge on Teslin Lake. Very tasteful choice in any case. Open steelwork still has to be one of the most organic materials that can be used to build a bridge. One of my favorites used to be a nice four-span truss bridge across the Stave River outside of Mission. Nice and white, it almost looked alive and it always gave a sense of movement, and of passing through something when we drove across it. Unfortunately, it was long ago replaced by the ugliest type of bridge imaginable, a featureless concrete box span. You barely even know there's a bridge there anymore. As for the Blue Bridge, I dare not raise an opinion. Everyone here would probably be able to guess it anyway. Surprisingly, I would not be against replacing the bridge as long as some sort of consistency was kept in the design. My whole issue with new bridges is not the actual bridges themselves, but the lack of any creativity in the so-called designs. Slapping together concrete and steal beams is not a design... it's a cop out to look like money is being saved somewhere (generally not the case anyway).
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Post by lmtengs on Aug 1, 2010 11:05:21 GMT -8
Are you sure that's a wood span bridge? I believe he means the driving surface when he refers to 'span'... EDIT: Nope, I just checked Google Street View. That bridge has a grated metal driving surface: Link to Google Street View of bridge
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 2, 2010 9:24:48 GMT -8
;D ;D Similar to the Astoria bridge and the Confederation bridge in size and significance, I present to you the Kaien Island bridge, on BC Highway 16. It is the long anticipated fixed-link between Prince Rupert and mainland BC. I explored the shore looking for evidence of the pre-bridge ferry service, but I found none. I'm pretty sure that the MV T'Lagunna Beach or the MV Ethel Merman Hunter served this route for a while. ;D ;D
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Post by lmtengs on Aug 2, 2010 11:57:00 GMT -8
Right now, the 'long anticipated' bridge is one going to Digby Island. It's in the city's plans for sometime in the next hundred or so years.
I believe the reason that the ferry you are looking for wasn't visible is because there wasn't one in that location. Riverboats similar to those that traveled up the Fraser River until the 1950s served the Prince Rupert-mainland route traveled up the Skeena River to Terrace, where the highway formerly terminated. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I remember being told about ferryboats from Rupert to Terrace, so I assume that's what was meant.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 5, 2010 20:11:17 GMT -8
The Nass River bridge is on Highway 37, in Northern BC. I traveled across it twice in July 2010. It is located south of Meziadin Junction. Here is some history, from a display in the Stewart BC museum: The fast-flowing Nass, from the bridge. Going north: Going south:
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 6, 2010 20:44:26 GMT -8
I thought for a bit about Mr. Fluge's musings on bridges and I thought about 'Hagwilget'. I asked my wife and she too said 'Hagwilget'. Here's a web-page on this bridge: www.rdks.bc.ca/content/regional-district-community-heritage-registry?q=node/57And my photos of this bridge over the Bulkley River, from a Saturday in July 2010: - 1-lane bridge requires a game of chicken to see who's going to go first. There is no traffic light and no instructions. I think the generally accepted manner is to let a group of 2 or 3 vehicles across at a time, before it's the other side's turn to send a few vehicles.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 7, 2010 19:52:41 GMT -8
The Bridge of the 23 Camels, on Hwy 99 in Lillooet BC, over the Fraser River. Photos from July 18, 2010: - photo taken from west side of Fraser. Those mountains on the east side are spectacular, similar to what I'd see in Jasper ! Plaque explaining the historical name for this bridge.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Aug 7, 2010 19:59:19 GMT -8
The old 1913 bridge over the Fraser River at Lillooet. My photos from July 18, 2010, in the hot afternoon sun: - I've only been to Lillooet 4 times now, but each time I've stopped at this historic bridge. This time, it was a good rest break as we were on a drive from Vanderhoof to Pemberton. The explanatory sign: From above, near the railway bridge, on Hwy 99 north-east of the town. Views from my walk across the bridge: - I wanted to get sky, river and bridge into 1 shot. One of the towers has an osprey nest on it.
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Post by lmtengs on Aug 13, 2010 5:40:51 GMT -8
As of yesterday, according to the Chek 11pm news, Victoria City Council has voted to replace, not rehabilitate the Johnston St. Bridge.
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Post by Kahloke on Aug 13, 2010 7:15:52 GMT -8
As of yesterday, according to the Chek 11pm news, Victoria City Council has voted to replace, not rehabilitate the Johnston St. Bridge. Yep, here's the Times Colonist article: Victoria councillors vote to replace Johnson Street Bridge By Bill Cleverley, timescolonist.com August 12, 2010
Victoria councillors have once again voted to replace, rather than refurbish, the 86-year-old Johnson Street Bridge.
“Now is the time to put the political swords down and aside and say let us come together as a community, because fundamentally we need to fix this bridge,” said Mayor Dean Fortin.
The city plans a referendum Nov. 20 to get voter permission to borrow for the $77-million project.
The decision to replace the bridge follows weeks of open houses, tours and surveys, including an Ipsos Reid telephone survey that found 64 per cent of residents and 68 per cent of businesses preferred replacement over the rehabilitation option, estimated to cost $80 million.
As well, some 2,600 residents filled out householder surveys in which support for replacement ran about three to one.
Only Coun. Geoff Young voted against replacement, arguing that a third, less expensive option should be considered.
“People are very concerned about cost. That came through from all of the responses, the polling and the letters,” Young said later. “I think we have to say: ‘What is the least work we can responsibly and reasonably do to keep this bridge operating for another few decades?’ ”
Ross Crockford, a director of the group johnsonstreetbridge.org, which led last year’s counter-petition campaign against borrowing for bridge replacement, was not surprised by the council vote.
“Even I didn’t agree with the rehabilitation option the way it was put forward, so I’m not surprised the majority of people did not,” Crockford said.
Crockford maintains the refurbishment cost was inflated dramatically because council demanded that its amenities mirror those provided by a new bridge. For example, the refurbished bridge would have to have all new electrical and mechanical systems, would be expected to last another 100 years and would need to be seismically upgraded to withstand an 8.5-magnitude earthquake.
Consultants said the existing bridge would have to be dismantled to do the work, which would mean closing it for a year, resulting in a loss of $13 million in economic activity to downtown.
“What does disappoint me is that I think there are a lot of really crucial questions that the council thinks that they’ve asked which they really haven’t,” Crockford said. “They have not really grilled the engineers as to why the same team was saying that this was going to be $35 million back last November, and now we’re talking $80 million to rehabilitate the bridge.”
But Fortin rejected the notion of looking at other options.
“You get into paralysis by analysis,” he said. “We’ve had nine different engineering [studies] — three major engineering groups — MMM, Stantec and Delcan — come forward and say: ‘Here’s your options. Here’s the prices.’ We actually spent an extra $50,000 having a peer review so there was confidence in those.”
Under provincial legislation, the city must seek authority through a referendum to borrow the $49.2 million it needs for the $77-million project. The balance will come from a $21-million federal grant and $6.8 million through consolidating other planned capital works into the bridge project and land sale funds.
The replacement cost does not include bringing the E&N Rail line across. That component was eliminated to shave off about $12 million. The city is looking for funding from other sources, such as the Capital Regional District, the province and the federal government, to pay for a rail crossing.
“We will continue to go out and work for the next six months to try to find all that money. We have up until the end of December to actually include rail into the construction,” Fortin said.
Besides Fortin, councillors Pam Madoff, Chris Coleman, Charlayne Thornton-Joe, John Luton, Philippe Lucas, Lynn Hunter and Sonya Chandler voted in favour of replacement.
Council voted by the same eight-to-one margin in April 2009 to replace the bridge, but that was shot down in January after johnsonstreetbridge.org successfully held a petition campaign to force a referendum on the city’s plan to borrow $42 million to finance the project. Council then agreed to seek further information on rehabilitating the bridge, instead of replacing it.
bcleverley@tc.canwest.co © Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonistwww.timescolonist.com/news/Victoria+councillors+vote+replace+Johnson+Street+Bridge/3391119/story.html
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Post by fargowolf on Aug 13, 2010 8:00:47 GMT -8
Are you sure that's a wood span bridge? The photo looks exactly like the Nisutlin Bay bridge on Teslin Lake. Very tasteful choice in any case. Open steelwork still has to be one of the most organic materials that can be used to build a bridge. Yup. That is the Nistulin Bay bridge all right. Not only is it the longest bridge on the Alaska Highway, it's also the longest steel deck bridge on the Alaska Highway.
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Post by fargowolf on Aug 13, 2010 8:07:25 GMT -8
That's really cool! How did they move it? Did they use a similar process that they use when they launch ships, or did they just get a giant puller to drag the deck over onto the new pilings? Hydraulic rams I would think, as they give the best control for moving something that big. The same process was used in Fernie when the bridges on either side of the town were replaced.
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