Transit Expansion in BC

[Retrovision]

In light of recent transit expansion in our province, and talk of more from our provincial Transportation Minister, Flyin' ...err, umm... Kevin Falcon, I've started this thread to put all discussion and news into one place.

The most recent development is talk of transit on Salt Spring Island:
www.gulfislands.net/news.asp?ID=1742

[Political Incorrectness]

I'm not too sure if a transit system on Saltspring is a great idea, maybe because it is mr falco . Isn't there a need of transit expansion in some other parts of the lower mainland?

[ruddernut]

There's more to BC than the Lower Mainland.

Bowen Is. has 1/3 the population of SSI, but already has transit service.

[Neil]

Agreed. Plus, Saltspring has a fair number of seniors, and lots of organic types who don't want to drive. It's a logical candidate for transit.

[Ferryman]

Yeah, I agree with transit on Saltspring. It's becoming more of a popular destination for tourists, and people on the Mainland wanting to get away from it all for a few days.

Another place I've always wanted to see transit is in Ladysmith. Chemainus and Crofton have transit, and both of those places put together have half the population of Ladysmith. Ladysmith has the population to be considered a City now, believe it or not, but they continue to consider themselves as a town.

In a perfect world, every town would have some sort of transit system.

[kylefossett]

ferryman said:

Yeah, I agree with transit on Saltspring. It's becoming more of a popular destination for tourists, and people on the Mainland wanting to get away from it all for a few days.

Another place I've always wanted to see transit is in Ladysmith. Chemainus and Crofton have transit, and both of those places put together have half the population of Ladysmith. Ladysmith has the population to be considered a City now, believe it or not, but they continue to consider themselves as a town.

In a perfect world, every town would have some sort of transit system.

saltspring is ready for some sort of tranist, but if you followed how long it took for them to get an indoor pool and all the issues with that then you will realize that because of all the politics on the island transit is probably still a couple of years away. they want to make it a non-user pay system so this means that it will be funded through small increases in property tax. they want it on saltspring but they don't want to pay for it.
just to let everybody know why i feel i can get away with that last comment. i am a property tax payer on saltspring island. name is on a 1/4 share of title on family property. also there was a letter in the gulf islands driftwood years ago that said that you have to be a resident of the island for 15yrs before you can complain about anything. i am in my early 30's have been going to saltspring since i was 6 weeks old and lived on the island every summer from the age of 10 to the age of 19. i qualify now to get involved in some of the political b.s. that goes on over there.

[Retrovision]

ruddernut said:

Bowen Is. has 1/3 the population of SSI, but already has transit service.

Bowen Island is considered a 'bedroom community' of Vancouver, is part of the Greater Vancouver Regional District, connected by frequent not hourly limited-hours transit service and only a 20 minute ferry ride away from the mainland - not 1.5 to 3 hours, let alone the substantial difference in frequency - and a much shorter drive to the city's centre and eastern suburbs on the Trans-Canada Highway, not a much longer drive on a series of minor highways with traffic lights and city streets.

[hwy19man]

This has been talked about, partial integration of the CRD (Greater Victoria) and the CVRD (Duncan and area) regional transit systems, but it will not happen.

If you would like to read the entire report, it can be viewed online at: www.cvrd.bc.ca/agenda/full/505.pdf

The report starts on page 11 of the agenda. The study does not recommend a bus link between the CVRD and CRD. It recommends that an enhanced van pool option be considered instead.

There have been no studies regarding a link between the CVRD and NRD (Nanaimo and area) systems. At this point, the Cowichan Valley Regional Transit System only goes as far north as Chemainus (and that only began in September 2006). Expansion to Ladysmith has been identified in the five year financial plan for introduction in September 2008.

[Retrovision]

It kills me how they can expand so far north and talk about going even as far as Ladysmith along a very rural corridor, and yet the major centre of Nanaimo doesn't seem to feel the need to expand their system literally about 5 minutes out to Duke Point Terminal.

[Hardy]

tsawwassenterminal said:

It kills me how they can expand so far north and talk about going even as far as Ladysmith along a very rural corridor, and yet the major centre of Nanaimo doesn't seem to feel the need to expand their system literally about 5 minutes out to Duke Point Terminal.

This is perhaps a situation where there needs to be external pressure applied to Nanaimo Transit. Insofar as perhaps BCFS kicking in a small subsidy for the first say 6 mos of service, or a formal letter asking for a connection.

Perhaps as simple as an online petition (could even originate from this forum).

Anyone local to Nanaimo (who could go to a council meeting or two) and get come CITY interest piqued? Fax/email and otherwise send information to the local regional transit authority?

A chorus of voices centre stage tends to have more impact than a "few radicals" shouting from the sidelines ....

my two cents worth ... I was one of the "radicals on the sidelines" complaining about no service North Delta-Richmond years back ... now we have a #301 route ... I still have some of the 50 or so emails and 30 or so faxes that I sent at the time ... and a 60 signature petition that I gathered over about a month of soliciting input on the #410 bus out of New West station ....

[Retrovision]

hardy said:

tsawwassenterminal said:

It kills me how they can expand so far north and talk about going even as far as Ladysmith along a very rural corridor, and yet the major centre of Nanaimo doesn't seem to feel the need to expand their system literally about 5 minutes out to Duke Point Terminal.

This is perhaps a situation where there needs to be external pressure applied to Nanaimo Transit. Insofar as perhaps BCFS kicking in a small subsidy for the first say 6 mos of service, or a formal letter asking for a connection.

Perhaps as simple as an online petition (could even originate from this forum).

Anyone local to Nanaimo (who could go to a council meeting or two) and get come CITY interest piqued? Fax/email and otherwise send information to the local regional transit authority?

A chorus of voices centre stage tends to have more impact than a "few radicals" shouting from the sidelines ....

Very good points, hardy.

hardy said:

my two cents worth ... I was one of the "radicals on the sidelines" complaining about no service North Delta-Richmond years back ... now we have a #301 route ... I still have some of the 50 or so emails and 30 or so faxes that I sent at the time ... and a 60 signature petition that I gathered over about a month of soliciting input on the #410 bus out of New West station ....

Would that be pre or post 2000? If post-2000 then I thank you for reviving what the selfish majority of drivers turned down by rejecting the Vehicle Levy proposed by the then dying Provincial NDP government headed by Ujjal Dosanjh that would have setup, among other things, a network of crosstown suburban services utilizing a fleet of high-floor high-back seat suburban air-conditioned coaches that would have revolutionized transit in our region; instead the greed of so many brought the SoCreds that we now have in power and a budget shortfall for transit that cut so deeply that most cuts have yet to be reinstated and most have no word of ever being given back to the public. If you helped create the impetus for one of these new routes and services before they were proposed, then I thank you and am sorry that you had to have your work shot down so remorselessly with so little reprive.

[Scott]

I wonder if the new residential and commercial developments at the southern end of Nanaimo will eventually draw more demant for transit to Duke Point. I totally agree though. Why can't they just go out and meet each ferry (forget about the late one). It will easily create demand if it's available.

[Retrovision]

admin said:

I wonder if the new residential and commercial developments at the southern end of Nanaimo will eventually draw more demant for transit to Duke Point. I totally agree though. Why can't they just go out and meet each ferry (forget about the late one). It will easily create demand if it's available.

Of course there are many factors at work, most of them discussed and dealt with behind closed doors. One of these would probably be the already heavily burdened Coast Mountain Bus Company hourly (outside of summer months) service to Tsawwassen Terminal, and a related issue would probably be the fact that West Vancouver Municipal Transit, a seperate company, though under the same seamless fare structure, operated the service to Horseshoe Bay Terminal; personally, though, I've always been suspicious of the real reasons to justify the lack of service to Duke Point Terminal and doubt that these reasons are the actual justification used when not providing service to the Nanaimo terminal. Can anyone think of other possible justification that is given behind closed doors and out of control of the public for why transit has never been extended to Duke Point Terminal?

[ruddernut]

^ Because the Duke Point ferry is mostly for commercial traffic?

[Retrovision]

ruddernut said:

^ Because the Duke Point ferry is mostly for commercial traffic?

I've considered this, but I've always come to realize that this is more of a consequence of how the terminal is treated rather than a justification for why the demand has never been given a chance. As the saying goes, and as social transportation advocates live by, if you build it, they will come.

[Hardy]

Re: my push for transit routes. I have never been one to sit on my hands. My actions were before the big announcement, and the #301 was one of the few routes proposed as a cross-town route that survived the scrapping when the funding failed. There is still no service East-West across the middle of Surrey. To get from Scott Road to Guildford is 2+ buses and a skytrain, or a convoluted milk-run on the #340. The only way to get from Surrey to Ladner is really the #640 out of Scott Rd along River. The C76 (used to be the #318) along Ladner Trunk is generally a joke. There has been no service as promised along 88th corridor.

So, what is on the horizon? Boundary Bay airport expansion leads me to beleive that C76 will be beefed up. Better connections out of White Rock to the ferry terminal at Tsawwassen is likely when the RAV line goes into Richmond. #640 along River Rd is now more frequent but suffers greatly from delays due to congestion.

Back to Duke Point -- a lot of footies AVOID travelling that route because there IS no public bus service out of the terminal, and also no Charter service available either.

I find it a travesty that government allows a situation to continue to exist where a transportation HUB (such as Duke) is left unlinked to a transit system. For all their high and mighty plans to give citizens of BC an alternative to the single-occupant CAR, there are a lot of holes in their plan, and a lot of smoke being blown up people's proverbial arses.

While it is NOT as simple as "if you build it they will come", at some point you either have to have a chicken or the egg. You cannot play both sides against the middle, if the middle is not there to play against. You have to go out on some kind of a limb and spend SOME money on SOME services to give at least SOME kind of a feasible alternative to any particular commuting cooridor. If there are no suitable alternatives, of course people are not going to take the non-existant alternatives

Do your public consultation, implement some transit routes on a probationary/trial basis, and if they don't work, or meet ridership targets, revisit and revise your plan. Input from riders, stakeholders and other parties that have a legitimate position on the potential route is CRITICAL.

Specifically to DUKE, if BCFS is looking to diversify, then maybe they should talk to Translink/Coast Mountain and buy some of the older coaches they are retiring, and start offering their own "shuttle" service out of Duke and other terminals. Full fare for non-ferry riders, and a discounted (half fare?) ride for people presenting valid footie tix ....

Let's not forget that BCFS is supposedly private, and has already spun off into other things other than providing ferry service -- this would not be so far fetched as it appears at first glance.

It is an "out there" solution, but no progress was ever really made by hiding in a closet and not venturing out....

[hwy19man]

hornbyguy said:

Agreed. Plus, Saltspring has a fair number of seniors, and lots of organic types who don't want to drive. It's a logical candidate for transit.

As written in another thread, expansion on Saltspring finally happened last week. The one strange thing a caller mentioned on the radio is that Saltspring is part of the CRD but transfers issued on Saltspring will not be valid at Swartz Bay on the #70 bus and vice-versa!

[kylefossett]

hwy19man said:

hornbyguy said:

Agreed. Plus, Saltspring has a fair number of seniors, and lots of organic types who don't want to drive. It's a logical candidate for transit.

As written in another thread, expansion on Saltspring finally happened last week. The one strange thing a caller mentioned on the radio is that Saltspring is part of the CRD but transfers issued on Saltspring will not be valid at Swartz Bay on the #70 bus and vice-versa!

2 different transit systems.

[hwy19man]

On the front page of the Victoria Times-Colonist, Commuter bus coming to the Malahat this fall.

The trip willl take 60 minutes to Shawnigan, 80 minutes to the Cowichan Valley (Duncan).

Here is the link, www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=458e57ba-2c45-4447-9f64-98509227a4bd

Good decision but, get ready for complaints that there should also be a commuter bus from these areas to Nanaimo.

[Retrovision]

This is unprecedented. As such I feel no qualms about publishing the story in its entirety here...

May 8, 2008 14:23:49 GMT -8 hwy19man said:

On the front page of the Victoria Times-Colonist, Commuter bus coming to the Malahat this fall.

The trip willl take 60 minutes to Shawnigan, 80 minutes to the Cowichan Valley (Duncan).

Here is the link, www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=458e57ba-2c45-4447-9f64-98509227a4bd

(From: www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=458e57ba-2c45-4447-9f64-98509227a4bd)

Commuter bus coming to Malahat this fall


Andrew A. Duffy, Times Colonist
Published: Thursday, May 08, 2008

B.C. Transit will start a commuter bus service between downtown Victoria and the Cowichan Valley this fall, a move designed to ease congestion on the Malahat section of the Trans-Canada Highway and reduce greenhouse-gas emissions.

Eight buses, with high-backed chairs, reading lights and light-luggage racks, will be purchased with $4.3 million from the province.

In its first year, the service is expected to sell 70,000 rides.

"Commuters from the Cowichan Valley will soon have a comfortable, affordable and environmentally friendly alternative to driving into Victoria in their cars every day. They can take the bus and relax while helping to relieve congestion on the Malahat," said Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon.

B.C. Transit, the Victoria Regional Transit Commission and the Cowichan Valley Regional District have yet to work out details on who will pay for the running of the buses.

Operating costs for the eight buses are estimated at $775,000 a year, with the province committed to paying $362,000 annually based on a funding formula already in place with B.C. Transit.

Fares will offset some of those costs, but it's likely Greater Victoria and Cowichan Valley taxpayers will have to foot some of the bill.

That raised the ire of the Opposition yesterday, which argued the plan doesn't include the necessary operating costs, or factor in the costs of building park-and-ride facilities.

"Population is expanding in the region and a transit plan must include a realistic look at commuter rail on the E&N corridor," said Malahat-Juan de Fuca MLA John Horgan. "A bus solution without full operating costs won't help solve the issues commuters face today."

Falcon suggested it's unrealistic not to expect taxpayers to pay for new services.

"Yes, local people are going to pay for a new service that's coming into place, of course they are," he said. "If we want to expand transit options for people, we've got to make sure those options are there, and all of us will contribute towards it.

"We all pay and we all get the benefit, and the environmental benefit is significant," Falcon said.

A rail service requires more study while a bus service can be put in place quickly, said B.C. Transit CEO Manuel Achadinha.

"People are looking for solutions now, and by offering this service it's something we can provide in the immediate term," he said. "There's a demand out there, and it's really about how nimble we are at Transit to be able to adapt and meet those demands."

B.C. Transit vice-president Ron Drolet said work will now begin on details of the project, establishing the routes, stops, fares and required infrastructure.

"To make this work you have the service integrated, determining where local buses and commuter link transfers occur, and over time develop park-and-ride, and do the tariff," he said.

Drolet estimated fares could be between $5 and $10 one way, noting a three-zone fare in Vancouver (Maple Ridge to downtown for example) is $5.

"Maybe it's something in that $5 range, maybe a little more or less," he said.

What is known at this point is the service will run from Duncan to Victoria on a route that will take about 80 minutes, and run a one-hour route from Shawnigan Lake to Victoria each weekday morning, with the reverse trip in the evening.

Both routes will have three round trips each day.

The provincial funds are part of the $14-billion provincial transit plan announced this year, which aims to double transit ridership provincewide and reduce greenhouse gas emissions from cars by 4.7 million tonnes by 2020.

The service over the Malahat was a recommendation of the Malahat Corridor Study released last June. The study researched options for increasing safety and reliability along the highway and recommended a commuter bus service on the Malahat as a way of decreasing congestion.

[e-mail]

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2008

[hwy19man]

Thanks Retro for posting the article in its entirety. I did not know if I would be able to do this.

I phoned BC Transit (Victoria) yesterday and talked to someone I know personally. Unofficially, the fares will be double what the standard fares are now. Adults will be paying $4.50 and the concession fare will be $2.80.

The buses to be used on these routes will be very similar to the buses in Vancouver used on the 601, 602, 603, and 604 routes.

[Retrovision]

May 10, 2008 16:44:58 GMT -8 hwy19man said:

The buses to be used on these routes will be very similar to the buses in Vancouver used on the 601, 602, 603, and 604 routes.

Many of us, especially the die hard fans, know of the kind of bus you speak of. Would BC Transit be purchasing more Orion Vs, possibly tacking their order onto the now provincially run Translink's order of our (Vancouver's) recent 2008 versions of the 'Express Coach', and if so I wonder how they've kept it under wraps all this time as us fans have known about Translink's few new units for a while? Though I wouldn't be surprised considering the volume of activity on the Yahoo! Group Transit-Vancouver and how I focus most of my forum time here.

[Mike C]

May 12, 2008 14:47:11 GMT -8 Retrovision said:

May 10, 2008 16:44:58 GMT -8 hwy19man said:

The buses to be used on these routes will be very similar to the buses in Vancouver used on the 601, 602, 603, and 604 routes.

Many of us, especially the die hard fans, know of the kind of bus you speak of. Would BC Transit be purchasing more Orion Vs, possibly tacking their order onto the now provincially run Translink's order of our (Vancouver's) recent 2008 versions of the 'Express Coach', and if so I wonder how they've kept it under wraps all this time as us fans have known about Translink's few new units for a while? Though I wouldn't be surprised considering the volume of activity on the Yahoo! Group Transit-Vancouver and how I focus most of my forum time here.

I was just speaking with D60LF-R from this forum recently via MSN, and he has informed me that the buses that will be running on this route will be Nova-Bus Suburban buses.

[Dane]

I was at the Nova factory on Wednesday and heard that as well.

[hwy19man]

May 12, 2008 18:24:51 GMT -8 Mike C said:

May 12, 2008 14:47:11 GMT -8 Retrovision said:

The buses to be used on these routes will be very similar to the buses in Vancouver used on the 601, 602, 603, and 604 routes.

Many of us, especially the die hard fans, know of the kind of bus you speak of. Would BC Transit be purchasing more Orion Vs, possibly tacking their order onto the now provincially run Translink's order of our (Vancouver's) recent 2008 versions of the 'Express Coach', and if so I wonder how they've kept it under wraps all this time as us fans have known about Translink's few new units for a while? Though I wouldn't be surprised considering the volume of activity on the Yahoo! Group Transit-Vancouver and how I focus most of my forum time here.

I was just speaking with D60LF-R from this forum recently via MSN, and he has informed me that the buses that will be running on this route will be Nova-Bus Suburban buses.

I hope those buses are comfortable, especially the leg room. The leg room on the Orions is the only complaint I have. Critics and potential riders are saying that these new buses are expensive and may not live up to comfort expectations as some say. A wiser idea would be to utilize the double decker buses that Victoria has and conventional buses from both systems.