lifc
Voyager
Posts: 471
|
Post by lifc on Dec 6, 2010 10:10:39 GMT -8
Interesting take on things and unfortunately correct.
I think the bad economy will eventually result in a positive change in these processes as people get fed up with the non-performance of the current status quo. I predict the Governments will have to shed non-essential activities. Gold plated transportation options like the Viaduct Tunnel will go too. The Govt's will be forced to go kicking an screaming as they first try to eliminate essential services while keeping the high overhead, in an effort to get more money from the Taxpayers. These dodges are finally becoming obvious to the Public. Ferries will suffer temporarily, but as they are essential to Commerce, will eventually get what they need, however, acquisition process' will be more balanced, there will be no more KdT like crisis procurement, it will not be tolerated again, the public is watching and will no longer take being lied to. Things will be better,,,, in a while.
|
|
|
Post by chokai on Dec 6, 2010 11:06:55 GMT -8
We have chosen to spend our money endlessly studying the options for every proposed project. If we really wanted to save money, we would make a timely decision and follow through with it, rather than waiting until the options narrow themselves down to the most urgent and expensive of options. I'm sorry but the entire WSDOT admin/design/research budget statewide for a year is about $75M. Even if you spent 25% of that on the AWV since 2001 you would have spent $150M. The least expensive ever proposed option was $600M and that was a non-starter tear down and fix the street grid. A number you may have heard since then and be thinking of is $530M which is the expenditure since the decision on what to do was made in 2007. Of that $230M is on actual construction and design of the south end replacement. The remaining $300M was on engineering expenses. Debate and early design, as annoying as it maybe to some, is *cheap*, especially in a down economy. Building something flawed that does not necessarily meet needs is not. (see KdT, SR-520/Redmond Way Interchange). So costs on the AWV are nowhere close to what it would actually cost to do it. Indirect costs such as economic impact over time of the delay on the AWV are little as all proposed solutions ironically result in worse traffic. I've not done sufficient research on SR-520 to speak to it but I would expect it to be similar.
|
|
lifc
Voyager
Posts: 471
|
Post by lifc on Dec 6, 2010 14:39:42 GMT -8
I agree, to me the AWV Tunnel is a elite scheme that only benefits a few who want a better view at the expense of the rest of the State's Taxpayers. I personally like to look at the waterfront from it.
On the debut of the Chetzemoka, they tied up the SEII in the other slip instead of having it keep its usual schedule. My guess the reason for this was to let the public see how grand the new boat was in comparison. I do not think this move was entirely successful, I heard several comments like, "but it only holds ten more cars than the little one", "they are never going to fill the cabin on this thing", and another comment, "this thing ought to carry more than 12 more cars, look how big it is". The little SEII looked really pretty good as it was tied up there. I will say most were impressed with the new boat, like when you go to a rich person's house.
|
|
Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
|
Post by Nick on Dec 6, 2010 17:05:33 GMT -8
I agree, to me the AWV Tunnel is a elite scheme that only benefits a few who want a better view at the expense of the rest of the State's Taxpayers. I personally like to look at the waterfront from it. On the debut of the Chetzemoka, they tied up the SEII in the other slip instead of having it keep its usual schedule. My guess the reason for this was to let the public see how grand the new boat was in comparison. I do not think this move was entirely successful, I heard several comments like, "but it only holds ten more cars than the little one", "they are never going to fill the cabin on this thing", and another comment, "this thing ought to carry more than 12 more cars, look how big it is". The little SEII looked really pretty good as it was tied up there. I will say most were impressed with the new boat, like when you go to a rich person's house. I don't know exactly what the laws are in the USA re: crewing, but in Canada if a vessel is floating, and is registered as a ship, it must have a crew on board to deal with emergencies. I would guess that they tied the SEII up because they needed the crew on the Chetzy.
|
|
lifc
Voyager
Posts: 471
|
Post by lifc on Dec 6, 2010 23:38:07 GMT -8
At least some of the crew was on board the SEII, they were working on the tie up lines.
|
|
|
Post by hergfest on Dec 7, 2010 0:59:11 GMT -8
Its funny you bring up the 520/Redmond Way interchange chokai, they had just opened up the new lanes this past week. I was in Redmond today around 4/430pm and there were no traffic problems. On a "normal" day before the lanes opened, traffic would be backed up the hill past Microsoft. If they had just spent the money the 1st time instead of doing a two lane bridge, which was inadequate when it opened, they probably would have saved money in the long run.
|
|
|
Post by chokai on Dec 8, 2010 9:43:26 GMT -8
Its funny you bring up the 520/Redmond Way interchange chokai, they had just opened up the new lanes this past week. I was in Redmond today around 4/430pm and there were no traffic problems. On a "normal" day before the lanes opened, traffic would be backed up the hill past Microsoft. If they had just spent the money the 1st time instead of doing a two lane bridge, which was inadequate when it opened, they probably would have saved money in the long run. Yeah I drove over it last weekend and I've been hearing good things from everyone. Indeed that first interchange was a collossal waste of time and money (especially my time! ;-)) but is indicitive of the problem. Although most things end up funded when push comes to shove the DOT really suffers from unstable funding, without consistent stable funding you end up with all these little projects rather than big bang projects that offer a big bang sized return. My personal opinion is that it's because (rightly so) they are reluctant to committ to something they might not be able to finish before the funding structure changes yet again. That unstable funding is one thing that gets harped on by WSF management and IMO they have a point. That maybe the single largest problem facing them, it outstrips everything even older boats because it's where the whole issue starts. It means that when WSF needs to do anything substantial they have to approach the legislature rather than planning long term based on a stable funding source.
|
|
|
Post by whidbeyislandguy on Dec 13, 2010 15:29:36 GMT -8
Last night while i was shuttling people from langley to the ferry in Clinton, I saw on a barge The "Real Mccoy II" pulling up to the Nichols dock. I tried getting some photos but the mist was so heavy it looked like I was taking pictures in fog.
I was wondering if anyone on Whidbey would be able to get some photos of her?!
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Dec 13, 2010 15:55:43 GMT -8
Last night while i was shuttling people from langley to the ferry in Clinton, I saw on a barge The "Real Mccoy II" pulling up to the Nichols dock. I tried getting some photos but the mist was so heavy it looked like I was taking pictures in fog. I was wondering if anyone on Whidbey would be able to get some photos of her?! Here's one taken on November 12, 2010, while on my way to Port Townsend for CHETZY Day. This tub is quite a miniature version of that famous all-orange freight ferry BEACH GIRL that ran on Hood Canal after the Hood Canal Bridge sank in February 1979. She ran on beach to beach trips across the Canal until the TILLIKUM and KULSHAN began to run on the Lofall to South Point run in 1980.
|
|
|
Post by Kahloke on Dec 13, 2010 16:24:27 GMT -8
Cool Thanks for sharing that photo, Ferrynut. I was in Rio Vista back in September, and went down to the Sacramento River to get a couple of photos of the first Real McCoy, the vessel this one will be replacing I'm assuming. The Real McCoy docked at the Ryer Island side of the Sacramento River, awaiting its first run of the day Rio Vista side of the short ferry crossing
|
|
FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
|
Post by FNS on Dec 13, 2010 19:45:02 GMT -8
My pleasure. Here's another picture of the new ferry. Joining her unexpectedly was the King County Water Taxi cat in the surgery ward getting her brutal bruise repaired after her hit on the Seattle waterfront.
|
|
|
Post by whidbeyislandguy on Feb 12, 2011 14:20:29 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by Kahloke on Apr 21, 2011 19:01:53 GMT -8
Greetings from California:
I rode on the Real McCoy II a couple of times this week, as well as one of the other delta ferries from Ryer Island. I'll post pics sometime after I get home. In the meantime, I am very much enjoying the warmer weather of California. Ciao!
|
|
mrdot
Voyager
Mr. DOT
Posts: 1,252
|
Post by mrdot on Sept 3, 2011 10:52:41 GMT -8
:)I love the sig. eg fleet has of the city of sacramento, what a conversion Yarrows of Esquimalt did in 1952/3, also his day room is quite facinating, I can't believe I actually steered that vessel for a very short trick! after that adventure, it wasn't hard to see why they never took her thru Active Pass anymore, but went around the long way thru/by Boundary Pass! :)mrdot.
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 3, 2011 13:43:42 GMT -8
As for 'borrowing' aspects of BCF designs, I suspect there are very few... the fundamental design is 35 years old (it was one of the variants that were on the table before we ended up with the Issaquah-class boats), and I do believe the original was performed by Spaulding, so it's natural you'd see a few "throwbacks." Kinda like the observation I vaguely recall on here that the Spokane and Walla Walla looked like modified C-Class boats... ....or like how the movie Speed was similar to Speed-2, but with a bus instead of a boat (per a line from the Simpsons TV show). --------------- For those who don't do well with subtlety and would appreciate a time-line: - Spaulding designed the Coho before he designed the BC Ferries versions. - Spaulding designed the WSF Jumbos (Walla Walla & Spokane) before he designed the BCFerries Cs. So the correct way of comparing the ships is to say that some BC Ferries have a striking resemblance to some Washington ferries.
|
|
Kam
Voyager
Posts: 926
|
Post by Kam on Sept 4, 2011 23:49:39 GMT -8
The ferry in Norway had the tanks down below decks in the engine room... why can't they just do that? Out of sight and out of mind for them naughty people, and relieves some top-heaviness at the same time.
|
|
mrdot
Voyager
Mr. DOT
Posts: 1,252
|
Post by mrdot on Nov 2, 2011 12:05:58 GMT -8
:)just one thing on your agreement with my historical pastel dogwood theme, the original seabus livery was a visibility issue, and not ment to be political, only we seem to have politicized many of our marine liveries! ferries as blacktop and other infrastructure by their very nature have become political hot potatoes, but how come Washington and Alaska, have been able to put aside their many twists and changes, but both have retained their traditions! :)mrdot.
|
|
Scott2
Voyager
Missing everyone. Glad to see some newer members on here.
Posts: 48
|
Post by Scott2 on Nov 3, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -8
Couple of things.....I find it difficult that LNG would even be considered as a ferry fuel. It has been a huge issue for the last few years down here along the Columbia River. No one wanted LNG ships coming up the river as an explosion, though unlikely, would have destroyed everything in a mile or bigger radius. LNG is heavy, and a leak would go over the side of the ferry in a heavy fog, then down to the water below. A fire would be all around the ship. I should say fireball....it would not be a fire that could be fought.
Also, I had a question (Barnacle?)....will the light from the upper passenger cabin on the new 144's create problems with visibility on the bridge? I remember taking on trip on the Coho once and a passenger had turned on the cabin lights below the bridge. A crew member was livid when he came down and scolded them, saying it made it difficult for the Captain to navigate. I'm sure someone must have considered this....but.... Comments?
|
|
D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
|
Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Nov 4, 2011 3:14:31 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle on Nov 4, 2011 6:29:56 GMT -8
Also, I had a question (Barnacle?)....will the light from the upper passenger cabin on the new 144's create problems with visibility on the bridge? I remember taking on trip on the Coho once and a passenger had turned on the cabin lights below the bridge. A crew member was livid when he came down and scolded them, saying it made it difficult for the Captain to navigate. I'm sure someone must have considered this....but.... Comments? We solve much of the problem by not having cabins below the bridge. ;D Seriously, though, on all the boats that I have worked on a regular basis (it's been ten years since I spent any real time outside the San Juans), the shelter deck lighting has a cut-out switch up in the pilothouse, as does the extreme forward end of the car deck. After dark, we simply turn 'em off from the bridge. As a result, it's not uncommon to hear a deckhand requesting via the walkie-talkie to please turn on the lights on the car deck/shelter deck/picklefork, especially if they're working with a certain mate.
|
|
lifc
Voyager
Posts: 471
|
Post by lifc on Feb 19, 2012 1:24:55 GMT -8
I agree, end the Washington only bidding. Then allow a handy cap of let's say 10# to the local yards to offset travel, delivery etc. this would go a long way to keeping the yards honest. Eastern Marine told me they could have built the KDT's for 1/2 they cost.
|
|
KE7JFF
Chief Steward
Posts: 106
|
Post by KE7JFF on Feb 24, 2012 0:32:39 GMT -8
I would have no problem with this unified bidding if all the Washington yards were all the best in their work; but Martinac I know not just from these kind reports, but also some friends "in the trade" who tell me Martinac just doesn't have the resources to manage a project larger than a small USCG vessel at a fixed cost.
|
|
|
Post by Political Incorrectness on Feb 24, 2012 9:34:58 GMT -8
I agree, end the Washington only bidding. Then allow a handy cap of let's say 10# to the local yards to offset travel, delivery etc. this would go a long way to keeping the yards honest. Eastern Marine told me they could have built the KDT's for 1/2 they cost. Exactly the issue I have with current state law. State law dictates a monopoly on ship building and the yards need to be opened to competition in order to get the biggest bang for the buck. Honestly, I do not think the KDTs should have been built as they are highly specialized. At the very least, they should have utilized different engines but even then, I am not sure how they would have done with different engines on PDT. I think a Steliacoom II like vessel for that route would have been a perfect size vessel for the route.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Mar 1, 2012 8:12:36 GMT -8
With all due respect, if a ferry is built for Washington State Ferries, it should only be built in Washington State. Any suggestion they be built elsewhere is absurd.
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 1, 2012 8:21:44 GMT -8
With all due respect, if a ferry is built for Washington State Ferries, it should only be built in Washington State. Any suggestion they be built elsewhere is absurd. If you're going to use a work like "absurd", then please say why (and in more than just 4 or 5 more words.....) - I don't mind having a difference of opinion with someone, as long as each person is able to articulate their position. Otherwise, that dismissive word only serves to kill any discussion.
|
|