Rumours and Speculation > Transportation in GVRD

[Northern Exploration]

Wooo Easterners now thems fighting words...grrrrrrrr.

I always tell people my drive from the airport up Granville to downtown is my culture shock to being back home in BC. If anyone drove like that in NYC the cabbies would literally drive right over them or bash them off the road out of their way. Few left turn lanes and no right hand turn outs for the buses to load. Seriously it does take some adjusting the first few days being back in Vancouver with regards to traffic.

While here, the 401 is 16 lanes across in some places, when it grinds to a halt you are stuck big time. That coupled with all the freakin trucks moving around in the middle of rush hour . We have a lot of ravines in Toronto but the lake is on one side and we don't have a lot of long bridges or large hills to deal with. We deal with massive volume issues and it doesn't take much to really screw your commute up. But we get used to covering fairly large distances relatively quickly.

I like arriving early for my ferry trips anyways and always plan on extra time. But mind you when I am taking a ferry my business in Vancouver is over and I am on vacation or going to visit relatives.

[hergfest]

While I will say Vancouver's freeway system is worse than Seattle, have you looked at Seattle's geography some time?

[Retrovision]

pnwtraveler said:

I always tell people my drive from the airport up Granville to downtown is my culture shock to being back home in BC. If anyone drove like that in NYC the cabbies would literally drive right over them or bash them off the road out of their way. Few left turn lanes and no right hand turn outs for the buses to load. Seriously it does take some adjusting the first few days being back in Vancouver with regards to traffic.

This route cuts right through the heart of what I understand to be either the or one of the most affluent communities in all of Canada, shaughnessy, and this combined with the ancient road network, though in my and the opinion of many a much better alternative to a network of overbuilt and all too inviting super highways, has made this route, to me a welcoming time shift when it comes to the North American 'big city' norm - my handle is Retro for a reason - an antiquated should-be major connector to/from the airport; fortunately this can only bolster the ridership for the upcoming Canada Line rapid transit.

Shaughnessy, the other half and probably greater obstacle of the equation, with its mansions abound, holds extreme political clout along with its New York 5th-avenue-esque "South Granville Rise" hugging this important thoroughfare and mounted an expectedly effective "Stop Buses on Granville" (if I remember the slogan correctly) campaign, putting signs up in all the shops and persuading media to cover the story to a degree that wasn't representative of the regional need for bus-only lanes that they were arguing against.

[Neil]

Some background:

Younger forum members might be unaware of the battle to stop freeways that took place in Vancouver in the 1960s.

Early in the '60s, Vancouver's NPA controlled City Council, supported by the provincial SoCreds and development interests, had pushed for the construction of a freeway network which would have flattened large sections of neighborhoods and forever altered others. A rather remarkable coalition of grass roots groups, often united by little other than opposition to this scheme, sprouted and spread and eventually led to the defeat of the NPA, and the birth of COPE, and TEAM (The Electors' Action Movement), which formed a majority on Council in '72. Right wing politicians had vastly under estimated the average Vancouverite's disdain for mega-highways, and city voters also contributed to the defeat of freeway- touting Social Credit in '72, voting strongly for NDP MLAs.

So, you might not think highly of the roads that get you in and out of the city, but that is a result of a very clear, democratic decision that Vancouverites made as to the vision they had for their city. No issue has galvanised the populace in such a way since.

[Ferryman]

hardy said:

Just like most other projects, they were good on the planning boards, but once they are completed, they will be completely at capacity and essentially obsolete. As I have stated, most traffic planning seems to be in 4-year chunks even though most projects take at least 6-8 to complete. No one looks at the flows and capacity for the completion date, and then these multi-million boondoggles end up being "underpowered" for their intended use anyways.

Case in point, the current Port Mann bridge is at or above it's designed capacity approximately 17 hours out of every 24 hour period. Factoring in peak loads, I think the analysis that I read had it being at 130-140% of it's daily capacity when the numbers averaged out for weekday traffic. When it finally gets it's Twin, I have seen an analysis that says, even as a toll-route, that it will be at or near 85-90% of capacity UPON COMPLETION! Boy, that 10-15% margin should take all of what? 4 months to have this bridge system all bunged up again?

This intrigues me, because it's so true. Vancouver is so far behind with the times with road and bridge upgrades. Highway 10 should have been widened immediately after Highway 1 was expanded, years ago. The Patullo Bridge is falling apart, and the fact that its narrow lanes have mixed with horrible Vancouver drivers, is causing people to lose their lives. The Lions Gate Bridge can be a real nightmare depending on which way the counterflow lane is pointed, causing quite the bottle neck on one end of the bridge and massive delays. The Port Mann Bridge has people lined up for miles for majority of the day. If we didn't have to worry about all of these darned delays and waits to do something so simple, like going over a bridge, I'd bet Vancouver's smog would be dramatically reduced seeming millions of gallons of fuel would no longer be wasted to idling engines. The heart attack rate would probably make a nose dive as well, because driving to work or wherever will no longer be quite so stressful.

Back in September, I drove out to Kamloops via Vancouver. Once I passed the Taylor Way exit in North Vancouver, I was to then be stuck in for a very very slow 3 hour drive to the Sumas border crossing exit in Abbotsford. Abbotsford to Squamish is usually a 2 hour drive, but this time it was double. This drive was so painfully slow, the coffee I bought at the Chilliwack Tim Hortons was barely enough to keep me awake for the remaining 2 hour trek to Kamloops.

What I think Vancouver needs is an express lane on Highway 1. I drove on the Seattle express lane when I was driving to Portland via I-5 a month ago. It was wonderful to be able to pass everyone in the afternoon rush in a specially separated lane. This wasn't your average HOV lane, because it actually works. The only downside to it, was the fact that it was more of a counterflow lane, and would depend on which direction the traffic was heaviest.

[Dane]

I recently started working with my municipality and the transit people and I have to say more and more I see the benefits of not expanding roads. Now this is not a universal statement, I do think the Lion's Gate, optimally (but not going to happen) should be four lanes, but the Port Mann should stay as it is. While for the Port Mann it is true many don't have a viable transit alternative that is much more easily solved than the investment, environmental surveys, consulting and infastructure requirements that a new bridge brings.

Congestion in Vancouver has now hit that magical point where people are virtually forces on to transit (traffic into Vancouver proper is dropping a few percentage points a year despite a hugely increasing population). I am of the ideology this is a good thing, the new demands on public transit are also starting to bear fruit... there has been considerable additional funding provided to TL over the last year, it is just that may riders haven't yet seen the results for two reasons
1. The buses simply aren't in service yet (like ferries, they just don't appear)
2. We're very near having a critical driver shortage.
When capacity is added to roads it tends to be the case that new demand is added exponentially to the capacity. Case in point would be Seattle, Chris pointed out the express alen is a beuty, everything else is worse than Vancouver because they created so much capacity. Arterial road systems work.

While I won't vouch for the idiocy of things like no bus pull outs and short on ramps, I do strongly defend the arterial road system.... plus, despite our complaints, Vancouver has a fairly exceptional (and over priced) transit system. I did the math and realized it would be cheaper to take one University course a semester for the rest of my life to get a UPass ;D

[Dane]

VANCOUVER – An agreement signed today between the Province of British Columbia and TransLink will ensure rapid bus service across the Port Mann Bridge, benefiting 21,600 commuters daily.

The Memorandum of Understanding, signed by Premier Gordon Campbell and TransLink chair Malcolm Brodie, outlines the terms for the $180-million cost-sharing project, which is part of a broader vision for rapid transit throughout Greater Vancouver. It will provide reliable, fast, frequent bus service between Burnaby, Coquitlam, Surrey and Langley, with connecting buses to Abbotsford and communities north of the Fraser River via the new Golden Ears Bridge.

“Providing rapid bus service across the Port Mann Bridge for the first time means that commuters can travel all the way from Langley to Coquitlam or Burnaby in less than 25 minutes,” said Campbell. “An effective, efficient transit system is vital to ensure we are able to develop sustainable communities. This agreement is another step towards providing people with an option to get out of their vehicles and to get to and from work quickly, with a reduced impact on the environment.”

The new, eight-lane Port Mann Bridge will restore transit service across the bridge, as well as expand networks for high-occupancy vehicles (HOV), cyclists and pedestrians, for the first time ever. The express bus service will be connected directly to HOV lanes and will not mix with general traffic, so travel time for the full trip between Langley and Burnaby will be less than 25 minutes – as fast, or faster, than by car.

“Bringing transit back to Highway 1 after 20 years will be a significant improvement to our rapid transit network, providing quality service that will give thousands of people an effective and efficient public transit option for their commute,” said Brodie. “An express bus service will establish transit’s presence along this corridor, which leaves the way open for future rail options depending on growth and development in the south-of-Fraser region.”

Government is contributing $150 million, and TransLink is contributing $30 million for buses and facilities needed for the project, which will include:

- Initially, 20 buses, providing 10- to 15-minute frequency during rush hours (increasing over time as ridership increases).

- A transit-only priority two-way access ramp to/from the median HOV lanes via Government Street, for access to Lougheed Town Centre Station in Burnaby.

- Median on/off ramps for HOV and buses at the 156th Street interchange in Surrey.

- A transit loop either within or in the vicinity of the 156th Street interchange in Surrey.

- Median on/off ramps for HOVs and express buses in the vicinity of 200th Street to 204th Street in Langley.

- A transit loop in the vicinity of the 200th Street interchange in Langley.

- A minimum of 1,000 park-and-ride spaces south of the Fraser River.


----

20 buses is stupidly low.... but alas, the idea is sound. And there is no way 20 buses would be able top maintain that headway, either it will be reduced or they'll use assets from other areas (read: 98 B Line)

[Northern Exploration]

We lived there during one of the freeway campaigns and I can remember signs on people's lawns. Like they did more recently on Granville when they were talking about some improvement. Oh I know all about Shaunesy, we have a family friend who is a Doctor/developer/investor who was part of all that Nimby stuff on Granville. When my grandfather was alive (lived in car dominated Edmonton) loved to tease him how backwards Vancouver was. The Dr. would give a deep hoho chuckle and say "We like it like that." This would have been up to the early 80's even.

Even back when there was the gas crisis, people didn't understand the cost to business, health and lost time that traffic causes. What is unfortunate is that the no roads approach wasn't coupled with a wave of better transit such as the under the harbour light rail. At one point there was talk of hanging a monorail type train hang under the Lions Gate and have it run under and then over Stanley Park. Some ideas were crazy and impractical but then nothing else was done. We lived in Burnaby and were closer to downtown than when we moved to Toronto. In Toronto we could hop on the freeway and be downtown in 13 to 17 minutes depending on conditions. Much faster than living in Burnaby. However, it took quite a few years before my mother would drive on the freeways because they were so daunting . And she had a friend who was originally from Calgary who still won't drive on the freeway.

Anyways back to the point, when a group protests something too often they don't push for the solution another way. While Vancouver makes the best lists all the time, imagine where it would be today had some forward thinking been applied to just Transit all those years ago. It takes vision and some forward momentum. Like the period when BC Ferries was building the ferries one after another from a rag tag fleet to one sporting the 7 (+ ghost ship) ferries.

[Deleted]

I remember a time when some of the Bridges in Vancouver were Toll Bridges. (1960's) There was a toll booth near the start of the bridge and one had to pay money to cross. I don't recall which bridges, as I was young at the time. I know that the Lions Gate was not a toll bridge.

[Retrovision]

pnwtraveler said:

Anyways back to the point, when a group protests something too often they don't push for the solution another way. While Vancouver makes the best lists all the time, imagine where it would be today had some forward thinking been applied to just Transit all those years ago. It takes vision and some forward momentum. Like the period when BC Ferries was building the ferries one after another from a rag tag fleet to one sporting the 7 (+ ghost ship) ferries.

Transit in the Vancouver area would also, and I'd argue more importantly than a lack of vision and forward thinking that has been readily available atleast during the 90s, look very different today if it weren't for the impossibly cumbersome red tape presented by the management top-heavy BC Transit which was seemingly only a device to keep control of such visions out of the hands of local government. Control over transit matters was given back to local governments here through the creation of Translink and the oversight of the Greater Vancouver Regional Transportation Authority (GVTA), but as many would agree that setup was almost made to fail, giving far too much weight and voice to selfish local governments who's constant bickering and near inability to even approve the Canada Line to the airport, among other factors, gave the perfect excuse for Flyin' Falcon - Kevin Falcon, provincial Transportation Minister - to take back control as he's in the process of doing now.

A source very close to me who was actually offered a position on the upcoming provincially run board for transit in the area had the chance to look over the package for board members and the wording of the lattitude in powers given to them, and seemingly didn't have a second thought about turning down the position as this upcoming board would have to get the consent from the province for absolutely any project outside of the status quo. Don't get me wrong though, I do look forward to what few transit-growth friendly members such as Mike Harcourt will bring to the table, though I don't have much hope for progress between the province's weight and the heavy business community presence on this upcoming board.

But I digress, this is a ferry thread after all (thanks, pnwtraveler, for trying to redirect the discussion in that direction )

[Northern Exploration]

The toll booths were still there at least until the early 70's after they stopped collecting money. The Stanley Park ones (maybe only one on that side though - my recollection is foggy there) came down first but the toll plaza on the North Shore hung around longer. After the booths came down the road still followed a somewhat strange route set up for the toll plaza. There was talk of a toll to get to HSB though because the Upper Levels (do they still call it that?) was still just a road with fewer stop lights. They eventually did the improvements past West Van and the British Properties anyways without the tolls. We used to take Marine Drive to HSB back then because it was more scenic. Then to Trolls (without tolls) for fish and chips and ferry watching from the picnic tables. ;D

[Retrovision]

pnwtraveler said:

...the Upper Levels (do they still call it that?)...

...We used to take Marine Drive to HSB back then because it was more scenic. ...

It's still widely referred to as the Upper Levels indeed, especially on traffic reports.

To this day if I have the extra 20 minutes or so I'll choose the #250 bus along the senic Marine Drive to get to HSB over the #257 express that utilizes the freeway style Upper Levels Hwy., and I'm even more encouraged to do so after experiencing the standing room only and more crowds of people trying to save a few minutes by way of the still inadequately serviced express route.

BTW, the admin building for the toll booths at the north end of the Lions Gate Bridge is still around, with its classic style even for a highways building.

[Balfour]

Well here's my take on Road improvements here in Metro Vancouver.

I'm all for the Twinning of the Port Mann as long as this rapid transit service is introduced along with it. I believe that the only way for transit to be more effective is if there are better roads for the buses to drive on with transit priority measures in place (bus lanes and bus priority signals). I look at Main Street in North Vancouver which was recently widened but with no transit priority causing plenty of delays for routes going through Phibbs Exchange. 232 Grouse Mountain and 239 Park Royal both see huge delays due to heavy traffic during the day and because of route interlining, other routes get affected, including the 236 Grouse/Lonsdale Quay bus and the 246 Highland bus. The 232 is meant to be a a great cross-town route connecting Eastern North Van with Lonsdale, Edgemont Village and Grouse Mountain, but it's always delayed by at least 10 minutes often more because of traffic on Main Street near Phibbs and how slow Lonsdale is and as a result the 232 is probably the worst run route in North Vancouver.

[ferryking]

Just checked the RBI and the Coquitlam and the Esquimalt are both listed for service on Route 30 starting on the 19th of november...i think from what i've read around the forum the esquimalt was due for this service but i believe that the Coquitlam info is new...looks like the Alberni is back on the 3rd of december. Of course this is all speculation as the RBI is just for reservation purposes not for actual ship deployment information.
interesting though....

[Hardy]

pnwtraveler said:

Wooo Easterners now thems fighting words...grrrrrrrr.

I knew I could count on you! While I am not going to go as far as to say that you are unique, you are one of a relative few that have "vast" experience both in Vancouver and TO. I have yet to find another city that has the geographic and infrastructure challenges that Metro Vancouver does. Trying to describe what we have here to someone from Ottawa, TO, NB etc is like speaking fluent Acadian to a native of Szechuan province!

As you have stated, Metro Vancouver may as well be some backwards town down in the Mayan Penninsula when it comes to highways and transport infrastructure.

[Northern Exploration]

Vast = old sheeesh what next.

I bated with the truck on the freeway reference so I guess I deserved it. .

I am glad my business is usually downtown centred and the rest of the time is for enjoyment only. I am relieved I don't have to schedule anything time sensitive around the lower mainland or on and off of the ferries. They are just fun for me ;D.