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Post by Northern Exploration on Jan 22, 2007 13:35:35 GMT -8
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Post by Northern Exploration on Jan 22, 2007 13:42:48 GMT -8
Also btw on Page 15 is finally a map with all the Route Numbers listed so relative newbies can figure them out easily. Myself included. How about a basic resource thread that lists things like a link to the page where ships of the fleet on the BC Ferries Website, retired ships - one pic and description for each, and maybe this map with the route numbers etc. listed? I would be willing to help.
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Post by Dane on Jan 22, 2007 14:12:10 GMT -8
Interesting report, I plan on reading the whole thing and then commenting, I'm about half way LOL. Thats good for now  There is a section (Pg 35) that addresses the concerns about two vessels passing one another in Active Pass simaltaneously. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 22, 2007 15:02:46 GMT -8
Also btw on Page 15 is finally a map with all the Route Numbers listed so relative newbies can figure them out easily. Myself included. How about a basic resource thread that lists things like a link to the page where ships of the fleet on the BC Ferries Website, retired ships - one pic and description for each, and maybe this map with the route numbers etc. listed? I would be willing to help. See new thread called "The Glossary", in the Rules, Reasons, Recommendations page of this forum. --------------------------------------- I have saved the Morfitt PDF, and will be digesting it later. I hope it is specific and pulls no punches... |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 22, 2007 17:38:58 GMT -8
The cover-photo of the Morfitt report is perplexing to me, for 2 reasons:
1) They chose a photo taken with the pre-2003 "Expo" livery.
2) They have a photo of 2 Spirit vessels, in line.....presumably showing a quirk in service, where 1 vessel was considerably behind schedule; hence the 2 vessels in a row.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 22, 2007 17:45:57 GMT -8
The SMS (Safety Management System) seems to be the item for which there is a corporate-culture deficiency.
The report mentions that not all senior operations staff seem to have "bought in" to the SMS program, and that perception has resulted in some employees not seeing it as an effective tool.
That makes sense, that perceived lack of "buy in" would disable some of the potential gains from a company-wide initiative. All it takes is 1 senior employee to grumble or make negative remarks about the system, and the cultural buy-in to the system is compromised.
Such is the delicate world of corporate-culture & morale. It requires 100% buy-in from anyone who is percieved to be a leader in the organisation.
Quote, from page-23 of the report:
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Post by Dane on Jan 22, 2007 18:04:40 GMT -8
Where's the pic of two Spirits in a row? I'm guessing they just found some archived provincial photo of the ferries - we do stuff like that at work a lot so we don't have to worry about Copywrite etc (I'm a Federal employee)
Overall the report seemed to lack some of the cander I expected (and hoped for) but it was an interesting read. You can tell that specifics were either not gathered or not elaborated on for the public as the recomendations are sweeping generalizations that could probably be made by most members of this forum of community advisory members. This document will not make BC Ferries safer, however it will likely be effective at ensuring BC Ferries gets away rather free from the Media as there are very few (if not no) damning statements against BCFS. The statistics actually point to an organization that has not been as plagued by issues as one may have previously thought.
If there are safety issues at BCFS I doubt the Moffat report will be the cure, or even a stepping stone to a cure.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Jan 22, 2007 21:06:26 GMT -8
The Spirits are on the cover (p 1) in a badly-compressed JPG (ugh, shame on the PDF creator).
They are indeed sailing in the same direction ... but maybe it was PhotoShopped?
Anyway, Morfitt raises an old, old question. Is it strictly necessary to pass in Active Pass? This has been the pattern since the earliest days, and I assume (I've never looked at my watch -- help me, more knowledgeable folks) that this is the halfway point in sailing time from TSA to SWA.
I haven't yet read the report, perhaps it is explained there. I'd think we could adjust running time in the open strait (higher speed with the Spirits) to move the meeting point east to open water.
The Active Pass meeting sure wows the tourists. Cameras click and whirr when the two big ships dance their ballet in the narrow channel. Kodak should pay BCF a royalty.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 22, 2007 21:19:15 GMT -8
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 22, 2007 22:59:35 GMT -8
Dane: I don't think you're giving Morfitt enough credit. He made specific recommendations about improvements to the training and safety systems of BC Ferries, not just sweeping generalisations, and I really doubt that many of the members of this forum would have the ability or expertise to make the points he made. You say his report lacked 'cander' (sic). Perhaps he failed to uncover the dire deficiencies some people expected, because those deficiencies don't exist.
He did point out serious problems. The dysfunctional management- labour relations that can render some safety communication and training programs moot. A lack of 'synergy' on the bridge and elsewhere because of constant crewing changes. Lack of safety training for catering crew. Improper monitoring of crew accreditation changes. Lack of awareness of some safety programs by crew. He made recommendations regarding all of these, and other issues, and hopefully David Hahn is being honest when he pledges to implement all of them.
I think it was a worthwhile report. As many people believed, BC Ferries is basically a safe operation, but one with definite safety and training issues, and 'risk management' situations that need to be addressed to make it safer.
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 22, 2007 23:30:50 GMT -8
The cover photo on the Morfitt report is in fact the same photo that used to be on the BCFC website home page. Both Spirits are in Active Pass, with the near one heading south about to round Helen Pt, and the far one having just turned to the north to exit the pass off of Georgina Pt light house, Mayne Island. I do agree that it is a very poor reproduction. A similar view can be seen here: i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/wetcoastkidjst/Spirit%20Class/SpiritsinActivePass-May1995medium.jpgAnyone remember how to access archived versions of the BCFC website so that we can refresh our memories? |
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Post by Ferryman on Jan 22, 2007 23:38:54 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 22, 2007 23:53:48 GMT -8
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Post by Dane on Jan 23, 2007 0:35:38 GMT -8
Dane: I don't think you're giving Morfitt enough credit. He made specific recommendations about improvements to the training and safety systems of BC Ferries, not just sweeping generalisations, and I really doubt that many of the members of this forum would have the ability or expertise to make the points he made. You say his report lacked 'cander' (sic). Perhaps he failed to uncover the dire deficiencies some people expected, because those deficiencies don't exist. Working for a department that is constantly assaulted with reports of how things can be more efficient, how we need more money, and how we can operate more safely (at a gov't level) there are not specific points; obviously some are more specific than others and likely the best example of a problem being noted is that Flugel already pointed out. An example of a specific issue and specific solutions would be the TSB statement for BC Ferries today. Specific issue, specific solution. The Moffit report at one points says safety manuals sometimes duplicate information, and goes on to say this is bad. I can't disagree with that, but which documents? Where? How specifically can this be rectified? He did point out serious problems. The dysfunctional management- labour relations that can render some safety communication and training programs moot. A lack of 'synergy' on the bridge and elsewhere because of constant crewing changes. Lack of safety training for catering crew. Improper monitoring of crew accreditation changes. Lack of awareness of some safety programs by crew. He made recommendations regarding all of these, and other issues, and hopefully David Hahn is being honest when he pledges to implement all of them. I agree - but again don't feel the report "dug deep" enough to elicit action. Saying "play nice" is different that pinpointing various issues that plaque BCFS's labour relations at an ecological level. I think it was a worthwhile report. As many people believed, BC Ferries is basically a safe operation, but one with definite safety and training issues, and 'risk management' situations that need to be addressed to make it safer. The last thing I want if for people to get the impression that I believe BC Ferries is unsafe. I am a staunch supporter of the organization whether in its previous corporate form or current sudo-private form. I believe BC Ferries is a very safe and efficient transportation providing organization that with continued modernization will maintain its position in the industry as a safe provider of marine transit. |
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Post by yvr on Jan 23, 2007 9:50:03 GMT -8
Hopefully Cascade has some input for us regarding the Morfitt report.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 23, 2007 11:47:43 GMT -8
Dane: I'm not sure you can compare Morfitt's report to a TSB investigation. The latter is usually into a specific incident, and makes specific, technical conclusions about the causes of that incident, and orders the parties concerned to make changes to equipment or procedures. The Morfitt inquiry was more of an overview of an entire system. He did make many relatively specific recommendations. For instance, he pointed to concerns about shift handover and the passing on of concerns from one shift to another. I don't think it was in his purview to make nuts and bolts directives as to exactly how and to whom pertinent information and concerns were to be transferred from one shift to another. Likewise, with regard to labour relations, his report would have easily been three times as long if he had addressed all of those issues, but his job was not to be a mediator. Both management and union know what they are- it was his job to affirm to them and the public that the dysfunctional situation was a problem. I agree with you though- in some areas of the report, I would have liked a few more specifics.
Mark Hume of the Globe and Mail, as well as Vaughan Palmer of the Sun, thought that the report showed a ferry system basically safe, with areas of concern that needed to be addressed. The Province, typically, thought the report 'blasted' BC Ferries' safety procedures, although their article did little to back up the headline.
tsawwassenterminal was right on in remarking on the cynicism and sneakiness in BC Ferries releasing this report on the opening day of the Pickton trial. They'll no doubt deny it, but that was not a coincidence.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 29, 2007 14:39:09 GMT -8
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Post by BrianWilliams on Jan 31, 2007 1:31:45 GMT -8
Pardon this brief digression.
Hornby, you said "I'm not sure you can compare Morfitt's report to a TSB investigation..."
That's right. Tonight (30 Jan 2006) I saw a PBS feature in their NOVA series on Canada's TSB investigation of the Swissair 111 tragedy near Peggy's Cove NS in 1998.
Though our TSB co-operated with US and European agencies, we led the 6-year investigation. Canadian TSB technicians discovered the cause of the crash through years of painstaking work.
We issued a detailed report with recommendations to international aviation: about fire-resistant materials (amazing, some older US-certified materials burn like gasoline), fire detection, electrical maintenance and early-response fire suppression.
Only a few recommendations have been adopted, but Canada's Transportation Safety Board stands very tall because of their diligence. Bravo.
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Post by North Islander on Jan 31, 2007 12:32:52 GMT -8
The TSB guys are great. The sad thing is that in Canada they can't make anyone do anything about their findings. In the U.S. the National Transportation Safety Board is like god. Here, we just hope for the best. It's too bad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2007 12:58:06 GMT -8
The sad thing is that in Canada they can't make anyone do anything about their findings. Don't they give them time limits to fix violations? And if they aren't fixed couldn't they impose fines or even take a ship out of service if it's unsafe? |
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Jan 31, 2007 13:23:16 GMT -8
The sad thing is that in Canada they can't make anyone do anything about their findings. Don't they give them time limits to fix violations? And if they aren't fixed couldn't they impose fines or even take a ship out of service if it's unsafe? I think what North Islander meant was the TSB doesn't have the authority to impose penalties if their recommendations are not adopted. The NTSB in the US has limitations too. Many of their recommendations are just that, recommendations. The fault has to be deemed a hazard to operation in order for a recommendation to become a required correction. However, North Islander is correct in saying the NTSB has a lot of clout. |
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Post by NorthIslander on Jan 31, 2007 13:56:21 GMT -8
TSB makes a lot of observations and a few recommendations, depending on the accident. They keep track on their web site of whether the recommendations are followed. They say the response is satisfactory or not or partly satisfactory but it is up to the ministry of transportation in Ottawa to make ferry companies do anything. And Ottawa says what standards have to be met, like Mr. (Mrs.?) Cascade is always saying. So even when the Morfitt review says you have to review your safety system, that system is an international code and the ferry company volunteers to follow it, but Ottawa can not say a word if the company slips up, because it is only voluntary. In other countries it is mandatory. It is a very odd think about Canada, isn't it, when we think we are so well regulated and safety conscious!
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 31, 2007 14:29:47 GMT -8
So even when the Morfitt review says you have to review your safety system, that system is an international code and the ferry company volunteers to follow it, but Ottawa can not say a word if the company slips up, because it is only voluntary. In other countries it is mandatory. It is a very odd think about Canada, isn't it, when we think we are so well regulated and safety conscious! Any ferry company anywhere in the world could commission a safety audit, as BC Ferries did with George Morfitt, and like here, it's findings would not be legally binding. I'm not clear on what point it is that you're making. |
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Post by North Islander on Jan 31, 2007 16:49:34 GMT -8
Sorry, I didn't write that very clearly. What I meant was that the safety management system that BC Ferries set up about 10 years ago is part of its decision to come into voluntary compliance with the International Safety Management code. That is an international code that the federal transportation ministry does not make mandatory for domestic ferries in Canada. Some countries do; Canada doesn't. It was very good that BC Ferries decided that it would adopt the Code on its own. As part of the code, you have to set up a safety management system, and that is very strictly defined, and it gets audited every so often to certify that the system is intact, in the case of BC Ferries, I think Lloyds audits it. What I meant was that Transport does not make it mandatory, so for BC Ferries its code compliance and therefore its safety management system is all voluntary, so if there is something that needs fixed (which Morfitt said) then it is a voluntary system that needs fixed, and so Ottawa cannot order the fixes to be made. A long boring post, sorry, that's all I was saying. Many of these things are voluntary in Canada, even the TSB recommendations, and that is odd in a way in a country that everyone thinks of as highly regulated. I will turn the discussion back over to the clear of mind. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2007 21:32:06 GMT -8
Don't apologize.
For my part, I learned something today.
I'm quite shocked to learn that BC Ferries can do what it wants as far as safety is concerned. They can adopt and voluntarily comply with international safety codes, they can voluntarily comply with TSB recommendations and they can send out auditors to review their own safety practices and voluntarily comply that person's findings.
Yikes!
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