Terminal locations - most remote

[Low Light Mike]

Today, Wet Coast Jim posted a picture of the QPR at Kelsey Bay. That pic got me thinking about how remote the old Kelsey Bay terminal was.

Sayward was the closest town, and Campbell River (at 1 hour away) was the closest large-town with services. That remoteness undoubtedly led to a pioneer / wilderness feeling to the Kelsey-Rupert route.

So, what are some of the more "remote" terminals today? By remote, I mean their distance or isolation from a mid-size town with services such as motels/hotels, grocery stores. Things that would both impact on travelers and on the storing/supplies for the vessel itself.

So, do we have a version of Kelsey Bay, today?

I haven't been there yet, but would Alliford Bay be the most remote?

What else is remote?

[Ferryman]

I've always kind of considered Whaletown to be pretty remote. You have to take two Ferries to get to a good sized town. I'd also even consider most of the Mid North Coast stops along the Inside Passage to be quite remote as well.

[keefer]

Ocean Falls and Klemtu come to mind. Can they even be classed as 'terminals'(?) But they're pretty remote on the Discovery Passage run. WIsh I had some pics of those spots.... hopefully sometime soon

[Retrovision]

To add some imagery to the discussion, here are some photos of remote terminals...

Kelmtu

www.ferrypicsbygraham.fotopic.net/p40006303.html




Bella Bella Terminal


Whaletown Terminal

www.ferrypicsbygraham.fotopic.net/p40897191.html

[Low Light Mike]

Both Earl's Cove and Saltery Bay are somewhat remote.

Both are at ends of the road

Both are say 30-45 minutes away from a town with grocery stores and motels.

But I wonder how the "remoteness" compares to that of Alliford or Kelsey bays.

(again, remoteness in the sense of the terminal being away from a moderate-sized town and away from the services of a town)

I guess that I'm trying to describe a terminal that's "in the sticks", where even the ferry-workers have a 1-hour commute just to get to work....or where being left there alone can be considered "stranded"....(I realize that these are all relative terms, depending on the individual)

[Curtis]

flugelhorn said:

Both Earl's Cove and Saltery Bay are somewhat remote.

Both are at ends of the road

Both are say 30-45 minutes away from a town with grocery stores and motels.

But I wonder how the "remoteness" compares to that of Alliford or Kelsey bays.

(again, remoteness in the sense of the terminal being away from a moderate-sized town and away from the services of a town)

I guess that I'm trying to describe a terminal that's "in the sticks", where even the ferry-workers have a 1-hour commute just to get to work....or where being left there alone can be considered "stranded"....(I realize that these are all relative terms, depending on the individual)

Couldn't have said it better myself. If you want to consider these "remote" look at how far they are from a city or town. Saltery Bay is about 30 KM away from Powell River, Earls Cove is about...45? Blubber Bay Terminal on Texada could also be considered remote, 10 KM from the nearest local area, Van Anda

[NMcKay]

what abou the terminals served by the kwuna? where there isn't even a terminal. its a government ramp that they board on.

[Koastal Karl]

The third photo of Graham's I think is Bella Bella not Ocean Falls as I remember that from last week. And yeah Alliford Bay is just a ferry landing and same with Skidegate the ferry landing is just like a boat launch as the Kwuna has her own ramps. Alliford Bay is about 15 mins from Sandspit and not much at Alliford Bay as far as a terminal or waiting area. Just like a bus stop waiting area and no washrooms except Portta Potties. lol!

Alliford Bay






Skidegate

[NMcKay]

she looks good in her new paint

[Retrovision]

karl said:

The third photo of Graham's I think is Bella Bella not Ocean Falls as I remember that from last week.

Ah yeah, thanks for the head up, it's difficult to remember and tell in the middle of the night what port of call you're at, lol, let alone that I was thrown off by the stop at Shearwater after Bella Bella that wasn't in the schedule on the way south.

Bella Bella's new berth builders' view (Queen of the North docking):
www.ramsaygroup.com/RMW/images/bella_ferry_ramp.htm

[NMcKay]

ive been looking closely at thsoe ramps...and what would you think if they were to build a set of removable ramps. that could be slotted into any K class in the fleet to make them able to service the kwuna's route.

[Retrovision]

harbourlynxkid said:

ive been looking closely at thsoe ramps...and what would you think if they were to build a set of removable ramps. that could be slotted into any K class in the fleet to make them able to service the kwuna's route.

I could see that; it would line-up with the rumour of the Kuleet and Klatawa being rebuilt similar to the Kuper for continued life with BCFS.

[WettCoast]

The terminals on the Kwuna's route are not all that remote if you go by Fluge's criteria. On the Skidegate side you are a few minutes from both Skidegate and Queen Charlotte both of which have grocery stores, etc. On the Alliford Bay side the village of Sandspit, population ~750, is about 15 minutes away. It two has a small grocery store, QCI's main airport, and other service businesses. Nearest 'large' town is Prince Rupert, of course.

My vote for most remote terminals today would be some of the central coast places like Klemtu and Sherwater.

I must admit that Kelsey Bay did qualify as remote when I was growing up on Vancouver Island. It truely was 'in the sticks'.

[Low Light Mike]

Here's some terminal-trivia, re terminal geographical names:

What's the most common geographical type of name for a terminal?

Bay: 17 active
- Swartz, Saltery, Descanso, Gravelly, Alert, Mcloughlin, Horseshoe, Departure, Otter, Village, Sturdies, Alliford, Mill, Brentwood, Blubber, Buckley, Heriot. (Kelsey)

Cove: 4 active
- Earl's (no matter what John H. says on his webpage, it's a cove, not a bay), Bear, Snug, Quathiaski.

Harbour: 4 active
- Fulford, Nanaimo, Long, Lyall, (Montague)

River:
- Little, Campbell. (Powell is technially "Westview")

Other geography:
- Ocean Falls, Duke Point.

Disgusting action:
- Shingle Spit

Roofing material:
- Shingle Spit

[Neil]

Two more Harbours: Preedy and Telegraph. (Thetis & Kuper.)

And how about ports that don't really have a name, just a designation given to them by BC Ferries? I can only think of one: Denman West, since it's not a bay, cove, harbour, town or anything else (although it is just down the hill from the Denman 'village'.

Reminds me of the song from the '70s by America (with an alteration) which had one of the worst lines of grammar in the history of pop music...

"I've been on a ferry to a port with no name,
It felt good to get out of the rain.
On the ferry, you can remember your name,
'Cuz there ain't no one for to give you no pain..."

And as a final p.s., are we including the Gambier and Keats locations which are, sort of, a part of the system?

[Hardy]

hornbyguy said:

And how about ports that don't really have a name, just a designation given to them by BC Ferries? I can only think of one: Denman West, since it's not a bay, cove, harbour, town or anything else (although it is just down the hill from the Denman 'village'.

We've missed TSAWWASSEN .......................

[Low Light Mike]

hornbyguy said:

Reminds me of the song from the '70s by America (with an alteration) which had one of the worst lines of grammar in the history of pop music...

"I've been on a ferry to a port with no name,
It felt good to get out of the rain.
On the ferry, you can remember your name,
'Cuz there ain't no one for to give you no pain..."

Here is a tribute song to the ferry workers, from that famous songwriting team: "Faucet and DrainPipe":
=========================

On the first part of the journey
I was loading the car deck
There were cars and trucks and bikes and boats
There was dogs and cows and goats
The first thing I met was a fly with a buzz
And a song with bass that boomed
The heat was hot and the pants were wool
But the air was full of fumes

I've been on a ferry to a port with no name,
It felt good to get out of the rain.
On the ferry, you can remember your name,
'Cuz there ain't no one for to give you no pain...

After two days in the Georgia sun
My skin began to turn red
After three days on the Denman run
I was looking at the hospital bed
And the story it told of the vomit that flowed
Made me wish that I would be dead

You see, I've been on a ferry to a port with no name,
It felt good to get out of the rain.
On the ferry, you can remember your name,
'Cuz there ain't no one for to give you no pain...
La, la ...

After nine days in the hospital bed
The schedule had me return to work
There were cars and trucks and bikes and boats
There was dogs and cows and goats
The ship is a city with it's life under-decks
And a perfect bridge-deck above
Under the car-deck lies a hull made of steel
But the traffic will give no love

You see, I've been on a ferry to a port with no name,
It felt good to get out of the rain.
On the ferry, you can remember your name,
'Cuz there ain't no one for to give you no pain...
La, la ...
=================

[Low Light Mike]

hardy said:

hornbyguy said:

And how about ports that don't really have a name, just a designation given to them by BC Ferries? I can only think of one: Denman West, since it's not a bay, cove, harbour, town or anything else (although it is just down the hill from the Denman 'village'.

We've missed TSAWWASSEN .......................

But isn't Tsawwassen the name of the town, on Highway 17? Or was it originally the name of the bluff or beach?

In any case it's not a bay, cove or point. Like Prince Rupert or Campbell River, it's the name of a town.

[DENelson83]

What BC Ferries calls "Denman West" I call "Metcalf Bay", even though Metcalf Bay is more to the southeast. But hey, the Duke Point ferry terminal ain't even on Duke Point either (it's on Jack Point).

[WettCoast]

I think 'Tsawwassen Terminal' was originally referred to as Tsawwassen Beach. Much to shallow a place to dock a Spirit so they built a causeway.

Any other beaches?

[Retrovision]

wetcoastkidjst said:

I think 'Tsawwassen Terminal' was originally referred to as Tsawwassen Beach. Much to shallow a place to dock a Spirit so they built a causeway.

Any other beaches?

Some interesting quotes...

From the first paragraph of the 15th page in Cadieux and Griffiths' 1967 book Dogwood Fleet

"With the first ferries of the new fleet taking shape on the drawing boards in 1958, and rapidly becoming realities on the shipbuilders' ways during 1959, decisions as to terminals became more urgent.
...
The man to meet the occasion was the Honourable Philip A. Gaglardi, Minister of Highways. Known as "Flying Phil" because of his propensity for speedy travel on the highways, he was a man of action. Too, he had the government's powers of expropriation and its full backing, particularly as to the need for haste. He had no trouble in obtaining the necessary appropriations and he swung into action to extend the Pat Bay Highway from the airport and to prepare the slips and loading ramps for the accommodation of the proud new vessels. ...
...
...A glance from Gossip Shoals or Georgina Point at the easterly entrance to Active Pass, is but 10 nautical miles to Point Roberts. But Point Roberts is in the U.S.A. Looking northward to the Canadian border , the planners' eyes fell upon the Indian Reserve of Tsawwassen. A bold decision was needed.
...
The extensive plans of the B.C. Department of Highways included a new fast route between Vancouver and Blaine at the U.S. border: a four-lane freeway wherein existing ferry crossings of the south arm of the Fraser would be replaced by and under-the-river tunnel at Deas Island. ...
The choice seemed indeed a bold decision. In addition to an access road from the freeway, fortunately through cleared and level delta country, a causeways about one and three quarter miles long would be needed to reach water of sufficient depth to receive the ferries. Two and a half million cubic yards of fill were required...
The doubting Thomases shook their heads. Many, including seasoned coastal mariners, were critical of the exposed locations. Others wondered about the long causeway. Anyone familiar with the early cost estimates must have realized they would no longer be realistic. But the decision was taken. A short crossing of the strait and a fast turn-around were vital to the schedules.
...
Ferries and terminals, originally roughly estimated at eight million dollars, were ready for the official opening on 9 June 1960. The cost had reached twelve million but nobody seemed too concerned. Times were wealthy, the need was vital, and the system certainly looked good to the islanders, who were delighted to hear that the speed of the ships combined with the route and the choice of terminals would make a two-hour turn-around comfortably fasible. They were also pleased to learn...
...
Thus it came about that on 9 June 1960, 23 months after it was

[/b][started][/size] ...The Dogwood Fleet was established. ...
...[/b][/size][/quote]

-And-

From G. and P. Bannerman's 1985 iconic anecdotal and accurate BC ferry history book The Ships of British Columbia ~ An Illustrated History of the British Columbia Ferry Corporation
(Page 54, beginning of "THE TERMINALS")

From a press and political point of view, the selection, design and construction of the ships were minor asides, but the choice of mainland and Victoria terminals was testy and controversial. ...
...
The minister [of transportation at the time, Phil Gaglardi,] conducted his own survey, polling twenty sea captains who knew the waters well. "Ten of them said yes, and ten of them said no," [re: Tsawwassen terminal location choice] Gaglardi recalled. "So we decided to go ahead. I figured the positives cancelled out the negatives and the negatives substantiated the bositives." Illogical as that may sound, Gaglardi has always protested that he never operated by whim. He said he surrounded himself with the brightest young engineering minds he could find. "The ideas were not mine, I just made them happen," Gaglardi said. His Tsawwassen confidence was endorsed when the respected engineering firm, Swan Wooster, finally took the contract.
...

-And-

From Norman R. Hacking and W. Kaye Lamb's 1974 book The Princess Story - A Century and a Half of West Coast Shipping
(Starting with the last paragraph of page 309)

The Black Ball ferries offered formidable competition to the Princesses on the Nanaimo run at a time when declining traffic on the celebrated triangle route was causing many problems there. The fast and luxurious Princess Marguerite and Princess Patricia could now earn their running expenses only during the short summer tourist season, which lasted between four and five months. After 1953 they were laid up each winter. For a time the Princess Elaine provided the winter daytime service between Vancouver and Victoria. Soon, however, ingenious scheduling made it possible for the night service steamers - the Princess Joan and the Princess Elizabeth - to provide the whole of the triangle service during the winter season. It was a gruelling performance, as the ships were on the move almost 18 hours out of the 24, in part owing to their low speed. The trip from Vancouver to Victoria occupied 5 1/2 hours, instead of the 4 hours which the fast Princesses had accustomed the public to expect (The ghost of teh old Charmer must have been amused by the spectacle.) Nor did the Joan and Elizabeth gain any respite in summer, when the Princess Marguerite and Princess Patritia returned to the day runs on the triangle service. The night steamer that arrived in Victoria made three round trips to Port Angeles during the day, and the sister ship that had travelled to Vancouver made two round trips to Nanaimo. Here again they were on the move from 18 to 19 hours each day.

In spite of concentrated effort of this kind, the Coast Service was facing major difficulties. The schedules of the Princess Joan and Princess Elizabeth required them to spend much of their time providing day services for which they were quite unsuitable. They had been designed for a leisurely night run between Vancouver and Victoria, and as night steamers they were admirable; but their decks were a mass of staterooms, their lounges and promenades were cramped, and their accomodation was inadequate and uncomfortable for any number of day passengers. Even the fine new Princess Marguerite and Princess Patricia were proving to be problem children. The had followed too closely the design of the first Princess Marguerite and her sister, for the type of traffic they were built to handle, for the type of volume they were built to handle was rapidly disappearing. In view of what happened within a few years it is interesting to note that in 1954 some consideration was given to placing at least one of the fast Princesses on a new run from Swartz Bay, near Sidney, to White Rock, on the mainland. The Marguerite or the Patricia could have made the crossing easily in two hours, and one ship would have had no difficulty making four round trips each day. Connecting bus services would have linked White Rock and Vancouver, and Swartz Bay and Victoria. ...

[Low Light Mike]

re Tsawwassen's great location for a Route-1 & 9 terminal:

I was thinking about this, while staring at the Tsawwassen bluffs, from Galiano. Tsawwassen is perfectly situated, for a short strait crossing. If the Tsawwassen/Roberts peninsula was not there, then the ferries would have to travel even farther to reach land at near Boundary Bay airport. ie. the simple geography of that point is a real timesaver for a ship.

If the ferry route had to reach past a non-existent-Tsawwassen to the land behind, then the route would be longer, changing the whole dynamic of the 2-hour-turnaround.

2 hour turnaround is a great thing....just like the metric system, it's easy to figure out.

Route 30 is just a bit more complicated....is that on the quarter hour or the 3/4 this time ?? ;D

[Hardy]

flugelhorn said:

re Tsawwassen's great location for a Route-1 & 9 terminal:

The simplicity of the location is in large part it's only redeeming quality. Even with a lot of the recent upgrades, the highway and road system connecting Tsawwassen to the rest of the lower Mainland is still far from perfect. Take for example, a truck trying to get to Hwy-1. Give me the simplest most direct routing to Hwy-1 from Tsawwassen ..... ?

There isn't one yet, the long promised SFPR is still in the planning stages, even though some ground has been broken finally.

Going to Vancouver? Well, you only have one tunnel and a minimum of one bridge to get there ... oh, and Hwy-99 runs through residential streets once you get off the Joke Street Bridge. Traffic lights everytime the dog stopped to pee on the fire hydrant.

Yes, geographically, it is a great location and makes tons of sense. The infrastructure is not there to make it a world class facility though. The transportation connections are sadly lacking for a major metropolitan city that claims to be high up on the international scale.

flugelhorn said:

Route 30 is just a bit more complicated....is that on the quarter hour or the 3/4 this time ?? ;D

This, however, is perhaps one of it's most desirable qualities - running up mid-island on a crossing that is only 25 minutes longer but eliminates the dreaded 'Hat for traffic bound up island.

No need to debate Rte-30, as that is not my intention.

I am simply pointing out that even though Tsa is a great location, the governments de jour really have managed to handicap it by not putting in place the supporting infrastructure to link it properly to the rest of the transportation network. Now we are having to play CATCH UP and expropriate land, and build multi-million dollar interchanges, flyovers etc to go around obstacles. Should have built the highway system in the 60's/70's when there wasn't so much NIMBY-ism going on and it would have cost a fraction of the cost in real dollars!

[Scott]

Yup, Tsawwassen is a great ferry terminal stuck in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't have good bus service usually, although hopefully this will change with the building of the RAV line. If they could provide some kind of direct or almost direct bus route between Tsawwassen and a RAV station, it would greatly improve public transportation access (although there is still the tunnel).

As for driving, I doubt that will ever be fixed. The SFPR will probably help traffic from Surrey and the Hwy.1 but from Vancouver or Burnaby... it's a long trip. I live in North Burnaby where it takes 20 minutes to get to Horseshoe Bay and 40-50 minutes to get to Tsawwassen.

But what would take longer? To have a ferry come into or close to downtown or to drop cars off at Tsawwassen and let them drive? Then there's the question of how many people want to be dropped off downtown. The population of the suburbs is growing the fastest - so maybe it's not that big of a problem. On the other hand, some of the larger and fastest growing suburbs are in the north-east sector of the GVRD ... and good luck to you if you live there and want to take a quick trip out to Tsawwassen or beyond.

[Northern Exploration]

Question. What is the SFPR? I happen to remember what the GVRD (Greater Vancouver Regional District)