Is it War at the Terminal ?

[Guest]

This is interesting. I was under the impression that the BC Ferries' deal had already been consummated. Moreover, it was presented as an outright sale to BC Ferries, not a lease. Sounds like the media--or someone, at any rate--doesn't have the story straight yet.

As for the corporate spokespeople, it sounds a good deal like talk much but say little. Looking forward to some more solid news rather than posturing.

[Guest]

Once again, WSF has no intentions--now or into the forseeable future--to terminate the Anacortes-to-Sidney run.

Please go look under your bed for conspiracies; there are none here.

[In Washington]

Guest... WSF would like nothing better than to drop the Sidney run but local (Anacortes) political pressure has kept them involved. WSF would drop it like the proverbial "Hot Potato"if it were purely a question of operational costs and headaches.

[hergfest]

BC Ferries and WSF both transport people from the mainland to Vancouver Island. I would call them competitors. Not very good ones as WSF only makes two runs a day, but I digress.

[WettCoast]

Would anyone argue that the BC Ferries route from Nanaimo to HSB is in 'competition' with another BC Ferries route from Swartz Bay to Tsawwassen? I think not. The two routes complement one another.

WSF's international route from Sidney to Anacortes can hardly be described as in competition with BCF's various routes. I would argue that they are, in fact, complementing one another.

BCF remains as a BC government run enterprise providing marine highways for coastal BC. WSF, an arm of the Washington State government, does the same thing for coastal Washington.

Rather than competing, the two ferry operators should work together to improve travel and trade between Vancouver Island and adjacent areas in Washington State. Perhaps BC Ferries could contribute a ship and work together with WSF to really improve service on this international route so that there might be 4 or 5 sailings every day during the summer months. The BC govt could pick up a share of what ever subsidy Washington State taxpayers currently pay for on their own. It would be the neighbourly thing to do.

[Fenklebaum]

Y'know, from my own experience, sharing docks with competitors can be a real pain.

False Creek Ferries and Aquabus share most of the docks in the creek (Science World, Plaza of Nations, Spyglass, Stamps Landing, and most importantly, Yaletown), and I may say from personal experience that this leads to a great deal of tension sometimes. There have been days this summer where skippers have insulted each other, cut each other off, and in one instance even forced another ferry off of Yaletown. There has been even more tension since Aquabus' termination of the "David Lam Park" stop, as this has left them with virtually no service advantage over FCF, meaning Aquabus now tries doubly hard to take all the customers (for those not in the know, False Creek Ferries also provides service to the Aquatic Centre, as well as the Maritime Museum, the real trump card). FCF has ten boats, four or five of which are dedicated to serving the shared stops. With an equal numbered fleet (not counting the Olympic Rainbow, which is a joke of a ferry, and never used), Aquabus dedicates approximately five boats heading down to Yaletown/Stamps/Spyglass, and another two to Science World/Plaza. The round trip from Granville Island - Science World is 40 minutes, and 20 minutes for Yaletown - Granville Island.

SO.

Between the two companies, boats are arriving EVERY TWO MINUTES. Each boat, should there be people on the docks, is expected to take those that are waiting. Boats going both directions, then, will stop at Yaletown (the halfway point/hub #2). 2 different boats going East + 2 boats going West meeting at Yaletown = gridlock, and flared tempers. The situation is only exacerbated when Aquabus decides to send down their 'heritage' boat, which takes the space of two boats on the dock. Fun times are had by none.

From a purely logistical point of view, the Sidney dock probably wouldn't pose as many problems as Yaletown does for us at FCF, but from a psychological point of view, competition at a key destination for your system by a rival (and aggressive) company is EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING. I can empathize with WSF.

Also, BCF is a competitor, albeit a limited one at present. If they use the sidney dock for any route, it may very well siphon business away from WSF over the long term.

[Doug]

From BC Ferries' website:

"Washington State Ferries
Schedules and system information from our "friends at sea" to the south. This site includes information on the Anacortes-San Juan Islands-Sidney, B.C. service."

[Retrovision]

Guest said:

...
Moreover, it was presented as an outright sale to BC Ferries, not a lease. Sounds like the media--or someone, at any rate--doesn't have the story straight yet.
...

Yes, and BC didn't sell BCRail to CN, only leased it for something like a century. What, really, is the difference? I think the slant that you may be inferring from this reporter, Guest, is simply her considering such a "long term" lease to be not much different than outright ownership. That's how I took it, atleast; I don't know about others, though.

[Retrovision]

cascade said:

I can not figure out how WSF and BC Ferries are competitors - can anyone enlighten me....

hergfest said:

BC Ferries and WSF both transport people from the mainland to Vancouver Island. I would call them competitors. Not very good ones as WSF only makes two runs a day, but I digress.

And to the same penninsula in the next municipality over for that matter (Swartz Bay is in North Saanich).

[EGfleet]

As much as I hate to drag this old chestnut up again, I figured that the story would be of interest. It doesn't seem as if much is going to happen before next summer. The last paragraph is the most telling though, which is why it is in bold...

Sidney ferry terminal talks raise questions on route’s long-term future
BY KIMBERLY JACOBSON, American staff writer


The future of the Sidney, British Columbia, ferry terminal is in limbo, and that’s making Washington State Ferries officials, and others who have long supported the popular tourist route from Anacortes to the Saanich Peninsula, a little nervous.

Representatives from Washington State Ferries, British Columbia Ferry Services and the Town of Sidney met earlier this month to discuss changing the terminal manager from WSF to BC Ferries.

“They’re causing us to put our destiny in the hands of our competitor,” said Jayne Davis, WSF regional operations manager.

She said WSF understands what the Town of Sidney is trying to do, but that doesn’t mean they have to be comfortable with it.

Davis said WSF is cautiously moving forward, finding out what BC Ferries has in mind and how they want to run the terminal and how WSF fits in. She said they are not OK with the situation yet. There are still some concerns and there is still the possibility they will come to an impasse.

“We need to take the time to talk to BC Ferries and see what they have in mind and see if there is a way we can work together,” Davis said.

Davis will meet with a representative of BC Ferries and possibly the WSF lawyer on Thursday.
“What we need to do is air our concerns in more detail with BC Ferries and get more information on how they will address our concerns,” Davis said.

City Planning Director Ian Munce, a long-time member of the ferry advisory committee, encouraged Sidney officials to move slowly through the process. He said the decisions made will have long-term effects for both Sidney and Anacortes.

Davis said officials in Sidney think BC Ferries has shown it can do more with the terminal than WSF can because BC Ferries is local, has more resources and can invest more in the terminal than WSF.

BC Ferries has a major terminal just up the road from the WSF terminal in Sidney. Davis said BC Ferries does not intend to run boats at the WSF terminal.

“We’re just still not clear on what they want to do,” she said.

The Town of Sidney owns the land for the ferry terminal. Washington State Ferries has been the sole tenant and has run the terminal through contract agents since the mid-1950s. Davis said they have been operating the terminal themselves as long as they’ve been there.

In the past two years, WSF has invested in expanding the services and allowed others to use the terminal. The facility has an approved security plan and is an approved site of Canadian customs, one of two on Vancouver Island, Davis said.

BC Ferries has a memorandum of understanding with the Town of Sidney. Washington State Ferries representatives have been combing through the memorandum and raising issues in the document along with other operational concerns, such as having a WSF on-site manager land their vessels.

Under the memorandum, BC Ferries would be the lessee/manager of the terminal — which is what WSF does now.

Davis said they have been talking about having a 40-year lease with BC Ferries to use the terminal. But even that has its problems. Now they can say they will honor the schedule but down the road BC Ferries may change administration and have a new strategic plan, Davis said.

“We’re concerned about down the road and protecting the route in the future,” she said.

Davis said this will be a long project and she doesn’t expect anything to happen before next summer.

“Best-case scenario, people won’t notice anything,” she said.

If BC Ferries makes improvements at the terminal, she said passengers could gain benefits such as a more attractive terminal and an easier configuration.

The Town of Sidney has told WSF they will not sign a deal with BC Ferries unless WSF is happy.If BC Ferries and WSF are not able to find a solution, Davis said there will be more conversations.

[Neil]

That's actually a 'good news' story, since it shows once again that WSF is committed to keeping their international route going, and they're just understandably uncomfortable with having another operator as their landlord. I'm sure BC Ferries doesn't want to lose their main tenant, and this is all just part of the negotiating process.

[Barnacle]

There.

Now that all the clandestine conspiracy whatnot is finally laid to rest, the initial question remains: what on earth does BC Ferries want to do with the terminal? There really isn't anything that can be done at Sidney that can't be done better and faster at Swartz Bay.

[Barnacle]

cascade said:

There is still the European's lurking around in the background.

...Huh? What on Earth are you talking about?

[Neil]

Mr. barnacle, haven't you heard? 'Lurking European' costumes are the big thing this Hallowe'en.

Cascade, David Hahn mentioned the agreement with Sidney at the AGM. It's no secret. You're trying to milk intrigue out of an awfully dry rock.

[Barnacle]

I've never heard of a 'lurking European.' Most of the Europeans I have known in my life are the antithesis of 'lurking' and would rather bash on America's culture (or self-admitted lack thereof).

Once again, Cascade, I must request that you look under your own bed for conspiracies; there are still none here.

[Neil]

There hasn't been one word on this thread denying the possibility of European interest in new ferry ventures, so I'm not sure what you're carrying on about. We know that Chinese parties were looking at the Harbourlynx operation before Mr Life took it on.

I'm sure lots of people are curious about BC Ferries' intentions at Sidney. However, those of us who aren't constantly pre-disposed to see scandal and incompetence in everything BC Ferries does, are willing to let the negotiations with WSF unfold, and to wait and see if there can be any other tenants or uses found for the terminal. Hahn no doubt knew that there was a chance WSF might be the only tenant found for Sidney, and has calculated BC Ferries' investment accordingly.

"We will let this one go"..... good idea.

[BrianWilliams]

Waterbug race at Stamp's Landing:



Two False Creek competitors are good for providing a variety of services. I hope that the occasional shoving matches are a product of the young operators' enthusiasm, rather than official policy.

One way to increase rider loyalty might be more marketing of multi-trip tickets. If I had a pocketful of -say- 25% off FCF tickets, I'd let the Aquabus go by and wait a few minutes longer.

Anacortes to Sidney: I sure like WetCoastKid's proposal. A shared WSF-BCF operation could increase the service. Yes, it's not likely to happen soon. BCF already has a vessel shortage, and licensing a BC boat and crew for US-Canada operations could be a bureaucratic tangle. Good idea, though.

Finally - I do agree that WSF's insecurity of tenure at Sidney should worry them. European or other new operators could outbid WSF for use of the terminal at times that WSF needs.

No conspiracy required. Swartz Bay has no more room. Sidney is near the high-capacity Pat Bay Highway and might be a tempting base for a new Victoria to somewhere-in-BC service.

[Neil]

Given that WSF only needs the terminal twice a day, hopefully there should be room to accomodate other users, should they come along. Most passenger operations want downtown to downtown locations, and Sidney doesn't provide that.
I'm betting it won't be long before BC Ferries and WSF come to a long term agreement. Surely, it would be a public relations disaster, with both south island tourism interests and the public, if WSF and the U.S. vehicle connection were turfed.

[landlocked]

Let's play out this one for a minute.

You're an American and you want to go to Victoria with your car. What are your choices?

1) Coho - $42.50 US for car and driver, but driving to Port Angeles may not be convenient.

2) WSF - Anacortes to Sidney - $41.90 - $52.40 for vehicle/driver.

3) BCFS - Route 1 - $46.10 - 48.15 for vehicle and driver.

All fairly comparable fares. Now, BCFS have control of the Sidney Terminal and bump up the fees, after all, they didn't sign the lease not to make money. Suppose WSF say they can't compete and pull out of Sidney. Hmmmm...looks to me like BCFS can now control their competitors destiny. Would BCFS then take over the route. Absolutely not. They can handle the capacity on route 1 and don't have to compete with anyone but the COHO now.

We've all been asking "Do BCFS compete with WSF?" Of course they do! Customers have a choice of WSF and BCFS to come to Victoria. If WSF pull out, BCFS have done their job. Killed yet another competitor. WSF have reason to be concerned.

I don't mean to rile anyone up, but this is just like an airport giving the operation of a terminal to a single airline. What would happen if the Victoria airport gave control of the terminal to Air Canada? What would competitor airlines do? This is exactly what has happened here. BCFS now control a WSF terminal.

[Barnacle]

Well, last I heard, the lease hasn't been signed yet, so they don't control it.

And I'd still be surprised about a European operator being allowed to use the Sidney terminal, but only because it would seem to run counter to the fierce nationalistic pride I've seen (and envied) from Canadians.

Still, I have my worries about BCFS controlling a terminal that WSF uses. I happen to *like* my job.

[landlocked]

What is so interesting about this whole Sidney situation is that the Town of Sidney claim they put out an RFP, yet WSF, THEIR TENANT, didn't get, don't claim to ever having seen it, nor were aware of any negotiations going on. The other thing....why is a town in the ferry terminal business anyway? Why do THEY own a ferry terminal? Why do they need to control it? Why didn't they ask WSF if they wanted to buy it? How did it get to this point?

The Mayor of Sidney claims there would be "reasonable user fee established". The coast of North America is littered with bankrupt ferry operators who were paying 'reasonable user fees' according to the landlord. Just read todays Nanaimo Daily News re HarbourLynx. The Port of Nanaimo expects the fast ferry to pay passenger fees 7 to 10 times what BCFS does. Reasonable to who?

Let's see - Sidney says they want stability at the terminal. WSF weren't even given a Request for Proposals. Now, the tenant will have to lease THEIR terminal from a competitor. What's wrong with this picture? Sorry fellas, but something smells funny here....

[Barnacle]

I suppose that does raise the question of 'why did the city of Sidney buy the terminal from Transport Canada anyway?' Something does smell funny if you factor in that Sidney claims to have issued an RFP, information which I was unaware of.

As for WSF owning it, remember that WSF is run by the State of Washington and there might be issues about WSF owning a piece of land in a foreign country.

[landlocked]

When asked by a Nanaimo reporter why they leased the Sidney Terminal, David Hahn, almost flippantly replied "Why wouldn't we? We do operate ferry terminals don't we?" So, let's take this one step further...

The Victoria Harbour Authority make no bones about the fact that they want to completely rebuild the Belleville Street dock used by Clipper, Coho, Victoria Express. Their problem...how to go about it. They have no money. They need to balance the visitors needs with the users (operators) needs, and a reasonable return on investment. So, along comes BCFS. They put in a proposal to revamp, rebuild, and rejuvinate that terminal. Put in a Quay, etc, etc, etc. The Provincial Capital Commission (another Province of BC entity) says Great! Do it! You have the experience and the resources.

Hmmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but won't they now have the stranglehold on more ferry operators? Is this not in the realm of possibility? Of course it is. Will it happen? I don't know. But I will guarantee one thing. If the Provincial Capital Commission and the Victoria Harbour Authority go out looking for requests for proposals on the Bellevue street wharf, BCFS will be there with bells on.

[Neil]

landlocked- the smidgen of business that BC Ferries would gain from eliminating WSF would not be worth the ill will. Plus, they would be left with a useless terminal. As for their interest in the downtown Victoria terminal- I would hope that they would indeed be there "with bells on". Their mandate as a quasi-private corporation is to take advantage of opportunities to grow their business- why would you have a problem with that?

If WSF is forced out of Sidney, and it is shown that there was some nefarious intent all along by BC Ferries, I'll be the first to say that you and Cascade were spot on. Until that happens, though, all the intrigue seems a bit over the top.

[Barnacle]

Indeed, hornbyguy. I'm actually more concerned about the prospect of a renovation of the Belleville Street terminal pushing Black Ball out into the hinterlands. If that happens, Black Ball will be left with a run that goes from nowhere, to nowhere, and will probably close up shop. WSF wouldn't drop over dead because of the termination of the Sidney run. But none the less, as evergreenfleet posted in that article a week or so ago, NOTHING will happen at Sidney--paperwise or other--until WSF is satisfied.