Kwa-di Tabil Class Design & Construction

[BreannaF]

Someday. Someday.

From today's Everett Herald:

Published: Thursday, November 6, 2008

Bids on new ferries a week away

SEATTLE -- It will be another week before bids are opened on two new ferries designed to navigate the challenging waters between Whidbey Island and the Olympic Peninsula.

Bids on the 64-car Island Home-style ferries were to have been opened today.

"In response to a request from the shipyards for more time to prepare their bids, we are extending the bid deadline by one week," said Marta Coursey, a spokeswoman with the ferries division of the Washington State Department of Transportation.

The bid opening now will be Nov. 13.

The new ferries are being designed to replace the state's Steel Electric-class ferries, which were pulled from service because of safety concerns Nov. 20, 2007 and later retired. The then-80-year-old ferries were the only vessels in the state's fleet capable of carrying cars and freight on the route between Port Townsend and challenging Keystone Harbor on Whidbey. The state found now buyers for the Steel Electrics, which are now being sold for scrap.

The state still hopes before the end of the year to award a contract for the new ferries, with the first available for service in April 2010.

The latest information on the project can be found online at: www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Ferries/NewVessel/ptk.htm.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Nov 6, 2008 19:17:19 GMT -8 BreannaF said:

Someday. Someday.

From today's Everett Herald:

Published: Thursday, November 6, 2008

Bids on new ferries a week away

SEATTLE -- It will be another week before bids are opened on two new ferries designed to navigate the challenging waters between Whidbey Island and the Olympic Peninsula.

Bids on the 64-car Island Home-style ferries were to have been opened today.

"In response to a request from the shipyards for more time to prepare their bids, we are extending the bid deadline by one week," said Marta Coursey, a spokeswoman with the ferries division of the Washington State Department of Transportation.

The bid opening now will be Nov. 13.

The new ferries are being designed to replace the state's Steel Electric-class ferries, which were pulled from service because of safety concerns Nov. 20, 2007 and later retired. The then-80-year-old ferries were the only vessels in the state's fleet capable of carrying cars and freight on the route between Port Townsend and challenging Keystone Harbor on Whidbey. The state found now buyers for the Steel Electrics, which are now being sold for scrap.

The state still hopes before the end of the year to award a contract for the new ferries, with the first available for service in April 2010.

The latest information on the project can be found online at: www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Ferries/NewVessel/ptk.htm.

Makes me wonder if the yards are still having troubles getting steel suppliers to lock in prices, which has been a problem in the construction industry all year (steel prices spiked in March, doubling by July), or if they figure they might be able to get better pricing with the volatility of the market right now. Having watched the fuel indexes drop by 20% plus over the last 2 months, I would suspect a significant decline in steel prices will be seen shortly, if it hasn't happened already.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

lol...nav lights?

[Barnacle]

I see them...

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Nov 11, 2008 8:21:02 GMT -8 Barnacle said:

I see them...

I do too , just hard to make them out in the night shot

[FNS]

All fixed. You should see the lights a little better now.

...Meanwhile, as we wait for the awarded hard hatters to begin steel work on these new ferries, I decided to do a day and night rendition of them.



These ferries are going to look very pretty at night. A miniature "Jumbo" to say the least. The shores of Keystone harbor will sure be lit up with all these lights!

I chose a lighted panel for the wheelchair symbol next to the doors on the Sun Deck.

[SS San Mateo]

State gets just one bid for new ferries

seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/387724_ferry14.html

By LARRY LANGE
P-I REPORTER

In what the state ferry boss described as a disappointing development, the system received just one bid Thursday for building new 64-car ferries to serve the Port Townsend-Whidbey route.

Todd Pacific Shipyards submitted the lone bid of $124,450,559.00 for two vessels and $65,487,328.00 for one vessel. State engineers estimated the cost at $95,943,865.00 for two vessels and $49,452,894.00 for one vessel. That makes the bid almost 30 percent higher than the estimate for two vessels and more than 32 percent higher for one vessel than the estimate, according to system figures.

"While I appreciate Todd Shipyards' responsiveness, I am disappointed that there is only one bid," said David Moseley, assistant state transportation secretary for the ferry system. "We will identify all viable options before making a decision."

The system said it will evaluate the bid in the coming days to ensure it meets contract requirements, then decide whether to award a contract. The state's plan has been to build one or two new ferries to work the route, replacing smaller boats that were temporarily leased for service.

The temporary arrangement was made after the 1927-vintage boats previously service the route permanently beached because of their condition. The state plans to sell the old ferries for scrap.

[hergfest]

Not surprised at all, although I am disappointed that Dakota Creek and Nichols Bros didn't even submit a bid. WSF needs to just suck it up and get these boats built. Biggest problem is that Todd will probably get the 144 bid to which means those boats will be delayed too.

[FNS]

Nov 13, 2008 16:40:02 GMT -8 hergfest said:

Not surprised at all, although I am disappointed that Dakota Creek and Nichols Bros didn't even submit a bid. WSF needs to just suck it up and get these boats built. Biggest problem is that Todd will probably get the 144 bid to which means those boats will be delayed too.

Todd's building of these will spread to three sites. Todd, Nichols, and Everett. Nichols will build the aluminum passenger decks (from the Saloon Deck up). Todd will build the hull and Everett will do the Main Deck structures.

This is like what FSG is doing. FSG is doing the hulls on their new RORO ships. A Polish yard is doing the cabin structure. Both components are being mated at FSG, though.

It's like a plane manufacturer using various subcontractors to build parts of new airliners.

[SS Shasta]

Seems like the "Washington Only" limitation on the bid process is beginning to bite the hand that feeds it. If all West Coast yards could participate, lower bids might be possible. Remember, the Supers were built in San Diego and MV Hiyu in Portland, Oregon.

Wonder if the State will be forced to reduce the number of proposed 144 Class vessels to cover the extra cost for these 2 Island Home vessels?

[Nick]

Isn't this the same issue they had when planning to build Steilacoom-style boats? Bids came in much higher than state engineers anticipated. Could it be that the state's engineers aren't completely aware of the higher costs of building ships in recent years?

[Barnacle]

Nov 13, 2008 21:17:18 GMT -8 Nick said:

Bids came in much higher than state engineers anticipated. Could it be that the state's engineers aren't completely aware of the higher costs of building ships in recent years?

I'm thinking that's rather closer to where the problem lies...

[BreannaF]

It may take a little bit of lobbying to the right people, but I have faith in the fact that the state will get over it's case of sticker shock and build some ferries. Someone may have to explain it to them, or they will figure it out for themselves and just do it. They either have to build them, or explain to the people who elected them why they are leaving them (literally) stranded.

Yes, if they cost more than what is budgeted for them, and no more money is available, then it will take longer to get the ferries built. Some "think tank" will try to tell us that we don't have to build them if we only run the current ferries slower, but more frequently. ;D Or something like that. But the ferries will have to be built eventually as the funding becomes available.

And before someone says it, even if it does cost less to build a ship out-of-state (and we don't really know that for sure), there is truly some benefit to keeping these jobs in state. Even if it does cost a little more, the state will be nowhere in the current economy if it's residents are not working. There is truly some benefit to keeping my Dad (or rather, the guy who replaced him when he retired) working at a decent family-supporting wage. The state is at least trying to look at the whole picture.

[hergfest]

If taking some money away from one of the 144s is the solution, or even building only one Keystone boat lets just get it done. The longer you wait the more it costs, plus you can keep the Evergreen around a few years longer. One reason I am happy the state is finally doing something about 520 bridge and the Alaska Way Viaduct. Suck it up and take the financial hit now before the price goes up even more.

[chokai]

Nov 13, 2008 21:17:18 GMT -8 Nick said:

Isn't this the same issue they had when planning to build Steilacoom-style boats? Bids came in much higher than state engineers anticipated. Could it be that the state's engineers aren't completely aware of the higher costs of building ships in recent years?

Also depending on when the state completed thier estimating costs could also have gone up a fair bit due to things outside of Todd's control. In particular Todd will likely need to borrow money for buying some materials as well as bonding, insurance etc.. All unquestionably more expensive now than just 2 months ago. Surely not all of the over amount but I suspect it contributed a meaningful amount.

[Freeland]

For what it is worth department the Oak Harbor Newspaper had this
about Nichol Brothers. Nothing really new here....

www.pnwlocalnews.com/whidbey/wnt/news/34494339.html

Ferry bid boosts Nichols
By NATHAN WHALEN
Whidbey News Times Reporter
Nov 14 2008, 4:54 PM · UPDATED

0 Comments


The ferry bids came in high, but if approved they’ll boost Nichols Brothers Boat Builders in Freeland.


The cost to build new ferries for the Keystone to Port Townsend ferry route is approximately $40 million more than what the Legislature provided.


Todd Pacific Shipyards of Seattle submitted the sole bid for the ferry project. Nichols Brothers is a subcontractor.

etc etc etc...............Emory at Freeland

[Freeland]

Whoops.............Read the part about what Matt Nichols said about added cost of Overtime.

I jump a little on the above article..................Emory at Freeland

[old_wsf_fan]

Nov 15, 2008 13:10:26 GMT -8 chokai said:

Nov 13, 2008 21:17:18 GMT -8 Nick said:

Isn't this the same issue they had when planning to build Steilacoom-style boats? Bids came in much higher than state engineers anticipated. Could it be that the state's engineers aren't completely aware of the higher costs of building ships in recent years?

Also depending on when the state completed thier estimating costs could also have gone up a fair bit due to things outside of Todd's control. In particular Todd will likely need to borrow money for buying some materials as well as bonding, insurance etc.. All unquestionably more expensive now than just 2 months ago. Surely not all of the over amount but I suspect it contributed a meaningful amount.

This is not good news, but not unexpected. This is why the made in Washington State requirement needs to go by the wayside. I understand why it was put in place but it retards the updating of the system in general. If vessels could be built faster and less expensively, the State needs to seriously look into other shipyards within the US.

[Barnacle]

At one point the BTIW clause was not an absolute but rather an allowance for the in-state bids to be 10% higher (if memory serves). That I could live with, but if NASSCO can build 'em cheaper, them let's get on with it.

[SS Shasta]

Nov 16, 2008 12:43:51 GMT -8 Barnacle said:

At one point the BTIW clause was not an absolute but rather an allowance for the in-state bids to be 10% higher (if memory serves). That I could live with, but if NASSCO can build 'em cheaper, them let's get on with it.

I would firmly agree with this as long as the bid would go to a union shop yard. It's best to stay away from "right-to-work " yards along the gulf coast.........just an opinion .

Is there a large yard in Portland, Oregon that has new build capability or is that yard now limited to major overhauls? Several AMHS vessels have gone there for major upgrades and maintenance.

[BreannaF]

Nov 16, 2008 16:55:33 GMT -8 SS Shasta said:

Is there a large yard in Portland, Oregon that has new build capability or is that yard now limited to major overhauls? Several AMHS vessels have gone there for major upgrades and maintenance.

Cascade General, at the Portland Ship Repair Facility, is strictly doing only only repair work and some major upgrading of vessels now. It's been a long time now (many, many years) since a new build has come out of there.

There is still a lot of repair work going through their facility, but it is a fraction of what it used to be once upon a time.

Across the Willamette River, Gunderson still would theoretically have the space to build perhaps another Hiyu-sized vessel. But their main business that they are really set up to do efficiently on the marine side is building a wide variety of barges from the very large to more standard sizes. They would have to do a lot of retooling to build anything more like a ferryboat, which is not likely in the current economic environment.

A larger part of Gunderson's local business is being the largest maker of railroad boxcars on the West Coast.

There is no where else in Portland that even comes close to being able to build a ferry, so the short answer is, no, nothing is going to be built here.

[SS San Mateo]

Consultant Recommends Changing State's Ferry-Building Course

www.kitsapsun.com/news/2008/nov/17/consultant-recommends-changing-ferry-building/

By Ed Friedrich (Contact)
Originally published 12:01 a.m., November 17, 2008
Updated 09:07 a.m., November 18, 2008

SEATTLE

A consultant recommended Monday that the state delay the building of four 144-car ferries — including one pegged to serve Bremerton — for more than a decade and instead construct four 64-car boats.

The smaller boats are more direly needed, Kathy Scanlan of the Cedar River Group told the ferry financing group of the Joint Legislative Transportation Committee. The first two Island Home-class vessels would go to the Port Townsend-Keystone route, where the state is leasing a boat from Pierce County. The others would replace the 54-year-old Evergreen State and 61-year-old

Rhododendron on the San Juan interisland and Point Defiance-Talequah routes.

"First and foremost is to replace the ships when their time has come," Scanlan said. "The Evergreen State and Rhody need to be retired ASAP. We're living on borrowed time."

The 2008 transportation budget provides $84.5 million to build new vessels for the Port Townsend-Keystone route. Washington State Ferries opened bids on Thursday for two ferries based on the Island Home, which operates in Massachusetts. Todd Shipyards, the only bidder, came in with a proposed price of $124.5 million for two vessels and $65.5 million for one.

Department of Transportation engineers had estimated the cost would be $95.9 million and $49.5 million, respectively. VT Halter Marine of Pascagoula, Miss., built the Island Home for $33 million two years ago.

Scanlan suggested that the state could save 20 percent by going outside its boundaries for bids, and it might also qualify for some federal funds.

John Boylston, who works for Scanlan, said Todd's bid isn't as far off as it might seem. Halter Marine gave him a quote of $47 million to build an Island Home in 20 months, but Boylston estimated it would cost $64.5 million to build in Washington for the following reasons: the state wants it in 18 months, labor and steel are more expensive, Halter already did some of the engineering for the original boat, and there's the cost of getting it here.

Boylston recommended that the state go back to Todd and see what kind of deal it can work out on four boats, although he also said it would be a miracle if Todd could build the first one in 18 months. He said Halter would probably deliver it sooner than Todd.

Rep. Larry Seaquist, D-Gig Harbor, took "strong exception" to opening up bidding nationwide.

"It suggests that our yards are inefficient and pay too much," he said. "It's simply not true. The problem is that designers inside the ferry system are designing boats that cost too much."

Sen. Curtis King, R-Yakima, said to remember that citizens are paying for the ferries.

"If we want to keep building in Washington, we have to keep it at a considerable level," he said, suggesting a 3 percent to 4 percent premium to state bidders.

Funding for four 144-car ferries was approved by the Legislature in 2003, but legal and other problems slowed the process. Part of the appropriation was diverted to the Island Homes when the state abruptly retired four Steel-Electric ferries last November because the hulls were rusted and unsafe. That leaves $283.2 million to build up to three 144-car vessels. The next step is for Todd and its subcontractors to submit technical and cost proposals to the state in December. The first boat would be delivered in 2011.

The boats were to be assigned to Mukilteo-Clinton, Bremerton-Seattle and the San Juans. The state estimates they would cost $115 million apiece. Scanlan believes the price would be closer to $133 million.

It appears that the $84.5 million available to buy the Island Homes won't be enough, nor would the $283.2 million for three 144-car boats. Under Scanlan's scenario, the funds would be made available to build the Island Homes over the next four years. Six 144-car boats would be built from 2021 to 2030.

To make up for delaying a new 144-car boat to Bremerton or Mukilteo, Scanlan recommended bringing a 144-car Superclass ferry down from the San Juans to replace a 124-car boat. She thinks it should go to Mukilteo, which is in more urgent need of auto capacity than Bremerton, which doesn't use the car space it has.

[SS Shasta]

Here we go again. It's time for finger pointing !

[Kahloke]

Nov 18, 2008 9:37:13 GMT -8 SS San Mateo said:

Consultant Recommends Changing State's Ferry-Building Course

To make up for delaying a new 144-car boat to Bremerton or Mukilteo, Scanlan recommended bringing a 144-car Superclass ferry down from the San Juans to replace a 124-car boat. She thinks it should go to Mukilteo, which is in more urgent need of auto capacity than Bremerton, which doesn't use the car space it has.

What about passenger capacity? Everyone I have talked to who rides the Bremerton ferry says the Issaquah's are too small for that run at peak capacity times, most especially on the 5:30pm sailing from Seattle to Bremerton, and some of the morning sailings from Bremerton into Seattle. I agree that Mukilteo is in dire need of more auto capacity on its ferries, so I guess it may come down to which is the worst, or more critical, pain point: the passenger capacity at Bremerton, or auto capacity at Mukilteo.

[FNS]

Nov 18, 2008 10:35:44 GMT -8 Kahloke said:

Nov 18, 2008 9:37:13 GMT -8 SS San Mateo said:

Consultant Recommends Changing State's Ferry-Building Course

To make up for delaying a new 144-car boat to Bremerton or Mukilteo, Scanlan recommended bringing a 144-car Superclass ferry down from the San Juans to replace a 124-car boat. She thinks it should go to Mukilteo, which is in more urgent need of auto capacity than Bremerton, which doesn't use the car space it has.

What about passenger capacity? Everyone I have talked to who rides the Bremerton ferry says the Issaquah's are too small for that run at peak capacity times, most especially on the 5:30pm sailing from Seattle to Bremerton, and some of the morning sailings from Bremerton into Seattle. I agree that Mukilteo is in dire need of more auto capacity on its ferries, so I guess it may come down to which is the worst, or more critical, pain point: the passenger capacity at Bremerton, or auto capacity at Mukilteo.

I think what this means is that Bremerton would get two Supers (or one 1972 Jumbo and one Super) full time. Clinton would get three ferry service restored using three 124 I-Class. Three ferry service ended there in 1982 when the CATHLAMET and KITTITAS replaced the ILLAHEE, NISQUALLY, and KULSHAN.

The observing of timetables on the Clinton run was set aside when the third ferry began her service shift and ferries ran "wild cat" (unload, load, go!). Such as the case with three 124 ferries.

Ticket agents on the Clinton run will just have to work quicker.

A recap of three ferry service at Mukilteo going back to the early 1970s:

1970 - 1972
KULSHAN (65 cars) (No galley)
RHODODENDRON (65 cars) (Galley service)
OLYMPIC (55 cars) (Galley closed)
CHETZEMOKA was added occasionally as a fourth ferry.

1973 - 1977
KULSHAN (65 cars) (No galley)
RHODODENDRON (65 cars) (Galley service)
VASHON (50 cars on six lanes, later 35 +- cars on four lanes) (Galley closed)

1978 - 1979
ILLAHEE (75 cars) (Galley service)
KULSHAN (65 cars) (No galley)
OLYMPIC (55 cars) (Galley service)

1980
ILLAHEE (75 cars) (Galley service)
NISQUALLY (75 cars) (Galley service)
OLYMPIC (55 cars) (Galley service?)

1981
ILLAHEE (75 cars) (Galley service)
NISQUALLY (75 cars) (Galley service)
KULSHAN (65 cars) (No galley)

1982 - Present
CATHLAMET (100 cars, later 124 cars) (Galley service) (Elevator)
KITTITAS (100 cars, later 124 cars) (Galley service) (Elevator)
(End of three ferry service)