Alaska Ferries - general thread

[ancflyer]

Self-Inflicted Wound.

The AMHS is an integral part of Alaska - especially in Southeast.

The Governor need to pull his head out of his 4th point of contact and deal with that. Whilst the AMHS is a money loser, the State has to recognize it is a vital asset to the economy in Alaska - and again, especially Southeast.

It is THE lifeline for many people - most people.

The ridiculous state budget is going to kill it. And the governor and his 'people' are too shortsighted to recognize that. Living within your means is one thing, crippling Southeast Alaska communities from Metlakatla to Skagway is entirely another.

[Name Omitted]

As a follow-up, the strike is over. Details of the new contract will be released after Union ratification.

[Name Omitted]

Alaska’s coastal communities prepare for big change as ferry cuts arrive this week

Sigh, where to begin?

• The winter schedule comes out tomorrow.  The draft schedule that came out in July involves cuts to several towns for months at a time.  
• The draft schedule includes no service to Prince Rupert.  Allegedly, this is not related to the budget cuts, but to ongoing issues with well... funding protection for customs officials in Prince Rupert.
  
• The Governor has commissioned a new study on the future of the AMHS system, with the results due next month.  (Following not in the article) From the outside, the only substantial difference between this study and previous work is that this one seems aimed at finding a buyer for the AMHS system.  Previous work has indicated that the system is simply not viable.  The runs are too long with too few passengers.  The closest analogue is the BC Ferries, but with a buy American requirement for our ships, and no population densities approaching that of Vancouver Island.

[Name Omitted]

It's a banner day for the AMHS.

State announces dynamic pricing for ferries, reveals reduced winter schedule

• Prices go up on a sliding scale, starting when the ship reaches 30% of capacity.
• At 30% of capacity, the price of walk-up tickets goes up 5%, the price of a vehicle or cabin 10%
• At 90% of capacity, the scale tops off at +30% for walk-on tickets, +50% for vehicles or cabins
  
• Also, there is an additional 10% for "Special Events," whatever the hell that means.

It looks like the smaller ACF ferries will do better with revenue as well as cost less to operate.

[Neil]

Sept 5, 2019 9:32:17 GMT -8 Name Omitted said:

Alaska’s coastal communities prepare for big change as ferry cuts arrive this week

Sigh, where to begin?

• The winter schedule comes out tomorrow.  The draft schedule that came out in July involves cuts to several towns for months at a time.  
• The draft schedule includes no service to Prince Rupert.  Allegedly, this is not related to the budget cuts, but to ongoing issues with well... funding protection for customs officials in Prince Rupert.
  
• The Governor has commissioned a new study on the future of the AMHS system, with the results due next month.  (Following not in the article) From the outside, the only substantial difference between this study and previous work is that this one seems aimed at finding a buyer for the AMHS system.  Previous work has indicated that the system is simply not viable.  The runs are too long with too few passengers.  The closest analogue is the BC Ferries, but with a buy American requirement for our ships, and no population densities approaching that of Vancouver Island.

This is absolutely brutal for so many small communities. Great news for the air carriers, Alaska Marine Lines and others who attempt to fill the gap in lifeline service. AMHS this winter will consist of the Matanuska, Le Conte, and Lituya.

i can only imagine what this will cost in terms of the contraction in Alaska's economy... far more, I'm sure, than the measurable savings from the cuts in ferry service.

[Name Omitted]

Sept 6, 2019 11:45:33 GMT -8 Neil said:

i can only imagine what this will cost in terms of the contraction in Alaska's economy... far more, I'm sure, than the measurable savings from the cuts in ferry service.

With respect, the intent of the Governor's budget has nothing to do with savings.  Several of the items he vetoed have no inpact on the general fund whatsoever, being funded by outside sources.  Trying to understand this as a cost-saving mesure is not going to work.

[Neil]

Sept 6, 2019 13:19:18 GMT -8 Name Omitted said:

Sept 6, 2019 11:45:33 GMT -8 Neil said:

i can only imagine what this will cost in terms of the contraction in Alaska's economy... far more, I'm sure, than the measurable savings from the cuts in ferry service.

With respect, the intent of the Governor's budget has nothing to do with savings.  Several of the items he vetoed have no inpact on the general fund whatsoever, being funded by outside sources.  Trying to understand this as a cost-saving mesure is not going to work.

Then, by what other measure is this supposed to make sense?

[Name Omitted]

Sept 6, 2019 21:13:50 GMT -8 Neil said:

Sept 6, 2019 13:19:18 GMT -8 Name Omitted said:

With respect, the intent of the Governor's budget has nothing to do with savings.  Several of the items he vetoed have no inpact on the general fund whatsoever, being funded by outside sources.  Trying to understand this as a cost-saving mesure is not going to work.

Then, by what other measure is this supposed to make sense?

He's breaking the functions of government to give him an excuse to privitize.  His administration has been taken to court on numorous occasions over no-bid contracts to outsource government functions.  It's kind of his thing.

Simple vandalism. 

[Neil]

Kinda disgusting. Don't think BC Ferries ever did this, although they certainly did empty their sewage tanks out in the strait.

Visitors and residents alike protested the early practice of throwing garbage overboard. A twelve year old boy whose family owned a cabin on Admiralty Island complained about the unsightly mess and the unwelcome visitors: "Then the bears we've got come down on the beach and tear it to shreds and that makes it look twice as bad." In 1970 the system began installing trash compactors on board and ceased the practice.

On another topic, I'm sure that many people question the real 'savings' in under funding or even shutting down the Alaskan ferry system.

A 1991 study reported that for every dollar the state spends on the system, almost three dollars spill into the economy, creating hundreds of jobs.

-from Alaska's Ocean Highways, by Mark Kelley and Sherry Simpson, 1995 Epicenter Press.

[northwesterner]

Oct 12, 2019 9:51:35 GMT -8 Neil said:

Kinda disgusting. Don't think BC Ferries ever did this, although they certainly did empty their sewage tanks out in the strait.

I mean, Victoria's still pumping sewage out into the strait...

"The solution to pollution is dilution" is perhaps not best practices these days.

[WettCoast]

Oct 13, 2019 16:41:25 GMT -8 northwesterner said:

Oct 12, 2019 9:51:35 GMT -8 Neil said:

Kinda disgusting. Don't think BC Ferries ever did this, although they certainly did empty their sewage tanks out in the strait.

I mean, Victoria's still pumping sewage out into the strait...

"The solution to pollution is dilution" is perhaps not best practices these days.

That Victoria situation will be history fairly soon.  Up until the 1950's they used to dump their garbage at sea.

[Name Omitted]

And now, LeConte is down.

New ferry maintenance woes leave more Southeast Alaska towns without winter service

Adding crew quarters to the ACFs is sounding like a better and better idea, too bad the Governor would rather spend the money on a summer-only terminal.

[Name Omitted]

I don't mean to shock the learned folk on this board, but apparently, the AMHS would not be financially viable if taken over by private industry:


Alaska News Ferry privatization won’t work on most routes, says state-funded report

[WettCoast]

Jan 17, 2020 9:28:06 GMT -8 Name Omitted said:

I don't mean to shock the learned folk on this board, but apparently, the AMHS would not be financially viable if taken over by private industry:

Alaska News Ferry privatization won’t work on most routes, says state-funded report

Gee, what a surprise ...  Some things are best done in the public sector.

[Name Omitted]

Jan 17, 2020 11:42:07 GMT -8 WettCoast said:

Gee, what a surprise ...  Some things are best done in the public sector.

Actually, it is a bit of a surprise. One of the basic tenants of research is that you find what you are looking for, which is why the research question is so important. They were, frankly, looking for ways to privatize. They found literally 2 routes out of the entire system where that would work.  I expected a somewhat more bullish response.  I obviously misjudged the professionalism of the people conducting the study in some of my previous statements about it.

It is worth noting that the two routes they found are served by the newest vessels of the fleet, smaller day-boats. I suspect that will be a saliant point when discussing how to organize the system going forward.

*Edit to add: I've started actually reading the study, and it's even mroe grim then the newspaper article suggests.  One of the options studied is for the State to maintain ownership, and responsibility for replacemnt of, the vessels and ports while leasing both to a privete entity.  In that option the study states:

"...even if vessels and terminals are leased to private entities, and the entire capital burden is covered by the State of Alaska, it is unlikley that a provate for-profit entity would accept the responsibility of running all or any portion of the AMHS system using current vessels and termiunals.  The two routes that come closest to breaking even (Metlakatla-Ketchikan and Lynn Cannal) would not be able to break even unless wages were reduced to levels that may not be realistic, even with the elimination of unions."

[Name Omitted]

Here is the direct link to the study: DRAFT: Reshaping the Alaska Marine Highway

[Blue Bus Fan]

Jan 17, 2020 13:29:39 GMT -8 Name Omitted said:

Here is the direct link to the study: DRAFT: Reshaping the Alaska Marine Highway

I wonder what direction they will take Alaska Marine Highway. I have say public corporation would make sense because they can take advantage of everything. 

[Neil]

Jan 17, 2020 13:29:39 GMT -8 Name Omitted said:

Here is the direct link to the study: DRAFT: Reshaping the Alaska Marine Highway

Name Omitted: What do you think will be the outcome to this dilemma? As an outside observer, I'm aghast at what seems to be the implosion of an essential marine transit service, but at the same time, I wonder at the ability of the state to support an extremely expensive system for a relatively small number of users.
What might AMHS look like next summer, and going forward? And do Democrats in your state have a different vision, and a view of the financing?

[Name Omitted]

Neil, it would be a mistake to try and understand this as a Democrat/Republican issue.  The chief architect of the reduced budget in the Senate is a coastal Republican, but he was acting to prevent worse from the Governor's veto.  And, much as I was not pleased with him at the time, I think his path has been shown to be correct, given what the Governor vetoed overall.

This current administration is a TEA party attack on the institutions of the State, and while the Governor's supporters are generally Republican, he does not have broad-based Republican support.  There is a very active recall movement going on right now, and at its forefront is the patriarch of the largest coal mining family in the State, as well as the head of the Alaska Chamber of Commerce.  His vetos shocked Tammy Wilson, the representative from North Pole who used to be the baseline for hardline budget cuts, into joining with the Democrats to oppose him.  If the recall goes through, our Lieutenant Governor is a Republican of the old-school, and transportation projects will fair better under him.

Politically, the AMHS is not as protected as it was.  Unlike BC or WA, the system does not serve the main population center of the state.  Or the second or third, for that matter.  It's going to need to find a way of serving without taking quite as much of the DOT budget to do so, as long as Wasilla gains power.  That being said, "Old Alaska" still looks after each other, and the idea of so many Alaskans being cut off with so little warning shocked even Wasilla.  There is room for compromise.

Reading this report, it's actually a backhanded compliment for the system doing as much as it has.  The report (which really was meant to give a pathway to privatization) makes no bones about the fact that privatization is not going to happen.  It also gives a very grim picture of what will be required to get the system down to the Governor's requested subsidy.  It references the work of the Southeast Conference as having a lot of good ideas, but ideas that could be implemented without the need for a new public corporation.  That is to say, the Legislature could empower AMHS to make many of the changes while keeping administrative control.  This is where I see the compromise happening.

I think Costal Alaska will agree to cuts, but as long as there IS a public AMHS corporation with a bit more autonomy from the political whims of each passing administration.  I think we will see a shift away from mainline service, perhaps building a few more ACF boats.  I suspect there will be negotiations with the Union to allow different staffing for the mainliners for summer and winter months, made possible by a reduced max capacity on the vessels in the winter.  Additionally, the change in staffing will allow the ships to either be run on a 24-hour schedule or a 12-hour schedule as the time of year requires, with less paid for 12-hour schedules that see the crew home at night.  I don't expect the Malispena or Columbia will still be in the system in 10 years.

This report puts the Tustimena Replacement Vessel in danger.  Seriously, it describes replacing her with the Hubbard (!) at one point.  However, the money is allocated, and it's mostly federal.  If she survives this administration, she will be built.

[Neil]

A friend recently suggested a summer road trip, starting with the ferry from Bellingham to Alaska. She is definitely not ferry fluent, and didn't know if it was a Washington ferry, or an Alaskan enterprise. Somehow, she had it in mind that it might cost us about $800.

I priced this trip out a number of years ago, but hadn't done it recently. Turned out, the cost for one person under the age of 65, one over, an inside two berth stateroom, and my little Toyota Corolla, was $2795 American, or $3690 Canadian.

Mind boggling. And that's for this time of year. I imagine the prices are higher in summer. Also, AMHS has gone to what they euphemistically describe as 'dynamic pricing', which means that what you actually pay depends on how fully the vessel is reserved at the time of booking. So, a similar booking in July on a 70% booked boat could perhaps cost $5000 Canadian.

Two nights and three days on a ferry, with cafeteria food on top of that, at that price? No thank you. I'm thinking that would buy a pretty decent week long cruise.

[Scott2]

Jan 29, 2020 20:57:26 GMT -8 Neil said:

A friend recently suggested a summer road trip, starting with the ferry from Bellingham to Alaska. She is definitely not ferry fluent, and didn't know if it was a Washington ferry, or an Alaskan enterprise. Somehow, she had it in mind that it might cost us about $800.

I priced this trip out a number of years ago, but hadn't done it recently. Turned out, the cost for one person under the age of 65, one over, an inside two berth stateroom, and my little Toyota Corolla, was $2795 American, or $3690 Canadian.

Mind boggling. And that's for this time of year. I imagine the prices are higher in summer. Also, AMHS has gone to what they euphemistically describe as 'dynamic pricing', which means that what you actually pay depends on how fully the vessel is reserved at the time of booking. So, a similar booking in July on a 70% booked boat could perhaps cost $5000 Canadian.

Two nights and three days on a ferry, with cafeteria food on top of that, at that price? No thank you. I'm thinking that would buy a pretty decent week long cruise.

Wow! I always wanted to take this trip too but I had no idea the cost would even be half of what you quoted! I took a couple of Celebrity cruises to Nanaimo from Seattle and both were about the same time on-board, and there were lots of amenities, entertainment, and fantastic food....all for about 20% of what the ferry trip to Alaska costs. If Alaska cut the price enough to fill the ferry they would probably see somewhat of a profit.  Thanks for the good info. 

[Neil]

The news on AMHS just seems to get more grim. Not only do they not have the funds to operate the system, they don't seem to even have the resources to keep vessels in layup safe.


www.krbd.org/2020/03/03/house-lawmaker-decries-dereliction-of-alaskas-ferry-fleet/

[Starsteward]

Mar 6, 2020 20:34:28 GMT -8 Neil said:

The news on AMHS just seems to get more grim. Not only do they not have the funds to operate the system, they don't seem to even have the resources to keep vessels in layup safe.


www.krbd.org/2020/03/03/house-lawmaker-decries-dereliction-of-alaskas-ferry-fleet/

   I know for sure that if I wrote what I'm thinking right now about the plight of the AMHS fleet I would get my butt kicked off this forum platform faster than one could 
   cash in a huge winning lottery ticket!
   Now, trying to remain civil, I would humbly suggest that this situation in Alaska has been allowed to crumble into the current chaotic state because the people the
   system is 'supposedly' designed to serve have allowed that system to be hijacked by elected political representatives who obviously do not share, nor understand
   the very basic and rudimentary value and necessity of creating, operating and sustaining such a vital cog in the transportation plan for the State of Alaska! 
   
   I have some thoughts on ways and means that the AMHS fleet could be returned to a 'prideful' level of service, maintenance and future development. Some of the
   suggestions will, I suspect, run counter to the current 'way of doing business' that exists in Alaska, and elsewhere for that matter.
   In the meantime, I'm going to invent, manufacture, and create a palatable coating to be applied in the manufacture of 'Tax-pills'. More later.  

   
 

[Name Omitted]

You have causality backward.  Alaska's Constitution does not allow for independent funds.  Everything gets re-allocated by every legislature.  They have rutinized the process so it does happen with an omnibus bill that re-fills some of the accounts on July 1st with the amounts the accounts had on June 31st, but that is still an active action of the legislature.

Generally, this is a good anti-corruption tool, as it makes it much harder for a non-elected official of the government to create a fiefdom separate from the government at-large.  However, it means that everything that spends money in Alaska starts as political unless it has been specifically removed from the political process.  We have (4?) quasi-entities that are somewhat analogous to your Crown Corporations.  We have the Alaska Housing Finance Agency and Alaska Industrial Development Agency, which underwrite loans so must be able to act beyond a single year.  We have the Alaska Permanent Fund Corporation, which administers a USD 60 Billion fund (think
Alberta's Heritage Fund).  Finally, we have the Alaska Railroad, which was purchased lock, stock, and barrel from the Federal Government with enough real estate holdings to make a small operational profit if it was left intact and alone, so we did.

AMHS started out as a division of the Department of Transportation and has never been removed.  Therefore, we didn't "let" the politicians hijack the system or take over, they never gave up that control.  As for maintenance, the AMHS actually does a pretty good job all told.  We have a fleet of 40-year-old and older steel hulls that ply saltwater 24/7 for 10 months a year.  There is only so far you can expect maintenance to go, and having one mainliner in the water with the rest laid up does not provide the redundancy that the age of the fleet requires.

That being said, I do look forward to your suggestions.  Everything is on the table at this point.

[paulvanb]

Current status of AMHS for everyone to see:

dot.alaska.gov/amhs/fleet/fleet_status.shtml?_ga=2.89345043.948787717.1585548392-1335888546.1585548392