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Post by Nickfro on Apr 28, 2008 23:36:10 GMT -8
I can't see additional seabus-type terminals on the North Shore, especially in West Van. There is no way the district will want a higher density public transit service to take over a portion of their waterfront, nor have multiples of people spilling off the boats into the village. A bus loop down there won't fly either. That would be the only place (ferry building) where it could go, as everywhere else is too shallow.
Having one near Phibbs Exchange makes a little bit of sense. After all, it's now over 40,000 people that live east of 2nd Narrows and plans for taller apartment buildings in the area will certainly increase that population over the next few years. The biggest constraint, in my mind, is the duration of such a crossing, since it only makes sense to run it from Downtown Vancouver. Anywhere else from that side just isn't practical.
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Post by Hardy on Apr 29, 2008 4:29:26 GMT -8
Marine transit routes from the Waterfront Stn area could also run up Burrard Inlet to the Port Moody area, and west & north ward to places further afield like Gibson's, Squamish, Bowen Island, etc. As I was reading this thread, this same thought came to my mind. Why are we focusing the SeaBus talk onto the downtown core, when all projected models of population growth show that it is in the suburbs? Yes, they are adding rapid transit to SOME areas, but again, that is all HUB and SPOKE. And road-locked BUS systems (which are proposed for most of the "South of the Fraser" area, just aren't up to it -- even with queue jumper lanes and stuff on the BRIDGES. As was said -- lets take a page from other cities. Vancouver and it's harbour are pretty congested with commercial traffic, and, as was stated, most of the waterfront property around the current SeaBus area is not suited for transit. Without pulling out a zoning map and going into it too far, why have we not looked at say something like this (and sorry that I am discounting the Sunshine Coast for now, the readership of the forum from over on that side can speak to this better than I can...) Port Moody to Downtown - heck, West Coast Express goes this route, they're extending the Evergreen line this way already. Perhaps use sea mode from Port Moody to downtown to free up SkyTrain for those headed to INTERMEDIATE destinations other than DOWNTOWN (seeing as they are building up city centres such as Highgate, Metrotown, Brentwood, etc etc....) Leave the "short haul" people on the Train, stick the "end-to-end"ers on the Water! Langley/Fort Langley to Downtown - well, they are planning the rapid bus, but that is subject to all kinds of surface congestion. They are not planning on extending SkyTrain into Langley city yet, so Sea transport looks pretty good. Bus them all to the old Albion ferry landing and sail them to Downtown - again, see point above about INTERMEDIATE destinations. Maple Ridge - expand on the just above idea and grab the people that have to take the WetCoast Express train. There are lots of options if you look at them. I am not sure how quick a service would be, but you would have to make the time attractive over what is currently offered. With only buses, the Surrey/Langley part of things still all has to feed into the SkyTrain somewhere -- either Scott Road or Surrey Central for the most part. There is no link up at Guildford yet (shopping and also residential hub) which is just very poor planning on a master level from Translink. So grab people by boat from around Barnston ... run them to downtown. If it is under 40 minutes (which is Scott Road to Waterfront) then it could be made to work. Plus look at all the congestion that it takes off SkyTrain. Living in Surrey, I can speak well to the MAD crushes in the morning commute and trying to load on at Scott Road (3rd station from the beginning of the Surrey end) and having FULL TRAINS already with no room to board -- it was to the point where most experienced commuters into Scott Road were heading UPSTREAM to Surrey Central to get on empty cars and heading BACK TO WATERFRONT just for the sake of getting on. (I speak of the early trains before 7:30am mostly). Someone needs to take a long hard look at this as an alternative. Maybe not SeaBus sized, at least not to start with, but there certainly is some potential there. Remember that Surrey is the fastest growing region in MetroVan right now ... and the valley is not that far behind. As population increases and we hear more and more about this livable region stuff, someone needs to be bold enough and brave enough to look into a crystal ball that shows more than the standard "4-year political electee" time frame -- most major transit infrastructure projects (roads, bridges, transit lines) are 10-12 year projects -- 6 years to study, 2-3 to debate and the rest to build and implement ... far beyond the 3.5 year mandate that most politicians get - THREE terms worth ... that is why they are often half-heartedly done and poorly planned. |
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Post by Retrovision on Apr 29, 2008 4:39:04 GMT -8
2004 Vancouver Harbour Passenger Marine StudyI realized that Jericho Beach on the south shore of English Bay was considered, however unrealistic from the start that it was, but I had forgotten that not only Deep Cove but also Belcarra, Ioco and also Port Moody were included. When it comes to breadth this was a comprehensive study.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Apr 29, 2008 8:51:33 GMT -8
Hardy good suggestions regarding routes. For an example of the types of ships that could be used see the links below from just a few of the NYC Passenger Ferries. On the New Jersey side there are only three routes that you can drive or take a bus into NYC (Holland and Lincoln Tunnels and the George Washington Bridge. The tolls to cross, high gas prices, exorbinant parking fees (I paid $80 a day at one of the hotels for an SUV, $45 at a multi-story parking lot where the cars are lifted on elevators) and horrid traffic jams mean that driving into Manhattan on a daily basis costs a fortune. So beyond the subways and NJTransit trains etc. there are a lot of people who use the ferries as an alternative. Vancouver Harbour is not really that busy when you compare it to the area around Manhattan. Beyond all the barges carrying all manner of things including garbage, oil barges and tankers, numerous tour boats, personal boats, there are dozens of the ferries zipping passengers back and forth. You probably saw them in shots where they were evacuating people on 9/11 from the World Financial Centre ferry docks. There are shuttle buses that meet the ferries and take people on to major transportation hubs like the Port Authority or Penn Station etc. I have always been a driver and a not too frequent transit user. However with $20 for a daily rate for parking, plus more if you are after 6pm, gas costs that is $1.22 here and predicted to be $1.40 before the summer, and the time lost in traffic, the transit is looking more and more attractive and I have been using it more often. I think the same factors are going to start to drive the public to change their car dependant ways and I think will look anew at finding other ways to get to work. Government has to help now put things in place that will help get cars off the road and make it easier for the public to do so. One of those things whose time will come soon is NYC city style high speed water transit beyond the SeaBus. www.nywaterway.com/www.nywatertaxi.com/www.seastreak.com/SeaStreak*oops sorry about the bad link |
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Post by Dane on Apr 29, 2008 11:47:18 GMT -8
While I agree that martine transit services are something which would fit very well into Metro Vancouver due to our geography, I do also recognize why there hasn't been movement on the portfolio, and why I don't think anything will happen in the immediate future. Perhaps the most important stumbling block for any transit improvements on the North Shore is the lack of desification in The District of North Van and District of West Van. While the City of North Van has seen lots of population growth over the last three censuses, the District went up a mere 500 people! West Van's number was somewhat higher but still low. Although the District appears to be more dense, and busier than in past it's genuinely not the case. Although because of green iniatives the District of North Vancouver staff are trying to push forward (despite a less than helpful Council) we may see some more densification, but until this happens there is no justification for major financing to the North Shore for transit compared to other areas competing for the same money with larger, considerably more dense populations.
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Post by Balfour on Apr 29, 2008 11:55:55 GMT -8
Out here, more and more people have been using transit ever since U-Pass was introduced to SFU and UBC Students in 2003 and it is expanding to Langara and Capilano College this fall. With U-Pass, Transit ridership has increased dramatically over the last 5 years to the point where our transit system can't keep up. Translink has been investing heavily into fleet renewal and expansion, however we still have a lot of older buses that are being retired that can still be used during the rush hours.
Further expansion is planned over the next few years but it just can't come fast enough, but that's the nature of the beast. It takes time to build buses, deliver them, and fit them out for service. I think our transit system serves us very well considering the amount of pressure it is under.
Statistics show that more and more people are buying monthly passes and with parking being quite expensive and with gas prices going over $1.30/L recently I think Transit is looking much more attractive. So I believe challenge is there to look into different SeaBus links other than to the North Shore.
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Post by Hardy on Apr 29, 2008 12:05:51 GMT -8
Perhaps the most important stumbling block for any transit improvements on the North Shore is the lack of desification in The District of North Van and District of West Van. While the City of North Van has seen lots of population growth over the last three censuses, the District went up a mere 500 people! West Van's number was somewhat higher but still low ... we may see some more densification, but until this happens there is no justification for major financing to the North Shore for transit compared to other areas competing for the same money with larger, considerably more dense populations. I was not even thinking about the North Shore as a unit in my post, rather I was trying to connect the other suburbs to Downtown Vancouver. Short of chopping out more bear/deer habitat or blasting away cliffs, I think that the NS is about as developed as it is going to get. The other option is re-development to increase density, but that is specifically why people paid more in the District and WV to live there. The density argument clearly points you to places like Surrey (Central City, Cloverdale, Guildford etc) where there are multi-family units popping up left and right, with the same in Port Moody core, Langley (Willoughby up to 200th area, Walnut Grove/Port Kells) ... Of course some areas lend themselves better to marine travel than others, but if the marine aspect of it is considered along with feeding existing bus/train lines into it ... As was stated in an earlier reply -- why in Metro Vancouver, where we are surrounded by water and one of the biggest complaints is the tunnels and bridges, do we not use more water-borne mass transit alternatives to landlocked congestion?? |
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Post by Mike C on Apr 29, 2008 12:49:23 GMT -8
I remember a while back, my dad, who is a behind-the-scenes person at Delta, mentioned something about a proposed ferry between Ladner (Port Guichon-area) to Steveston. It never came afloat, though I'd be interested to see how well it would do.
The proposed ferry operator would have been the GVRD (now Metro-Vancouver), who probably would have contracted the route out to a private operator. Though I was young, and the politics are now beyond me at this day and age, I would be interested to see exactly how well it does. I would think Translink would have the brains to provide bus service on each side (the Steveston Transfer Point on one side, and the Community Shuttles/Peak Hour Suburban routes on the Ladner side).
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Post by Scott on Apr 29, 2008 15:36:56 GMT -8
Hardy, I agree with you 100%. The Fraser River is a natural highway that is uncongested and touches almost every one of the region's suburbs. And with Skytrain at Scott Road (near the river), New Westminster (right on the river), and soon the RAV line near the river around Cambie (not sure where the station will be) and in Richmond, I think there's a good opportunity to create a form of public transit that doesn't require additional roads, HOV lanes, special on/off ramps, etc.
They could use boats more along the line of the Centurion IV (Lasqueti Island ferry)... a little smaller than a bus, but it would probably work on the river. You've got the city/town centers of Maple Ridge, Port Coquitlam, Steveston, Fort Langley, Mission, Richmond, Steveston, New Westminster - all within a short bus trip to the riverside. Apart from city centers, there are high-density residential developments in Vancouver, Richmond, and New Westminster along the waterfront.
As far as industry and commerce there are major traffic destinations like YVR, UBC, River Rock Casino, Fraser River docks, River Road industrial area, Mary Hill Industrial park, Burnaby Fraser Foreshore Industrial area, Coquitlam's United Boulevard industrial area, Port Kells in Surrey, Vancouver's Marine Drive industrial area - all right on the river.
There's also tourist/recreational destinations to offset the commute traffic. You've got parks in Steveston, Deas Island, Fort Langley, Burnaby's Fraser Foreshore, Pacific Spirit Regional Park at UBC, Macdonald Beach / Iona Beach Regional Park near YVR, the River Rock Casino, New Westminster Quay, ... and I'm sure they could fix up the Scott Road area for toursts;)
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Post by WettCoast on Apr 29, 2008 19:16:24 GMT -8
I mentioned the transit ferries in Sydney, Australia earlier. Here is a link to go surfing on: www.sydneyferries.info/about-us.htmThe Sydney harbour fleet consits of 31 vessels, and routes serve 39 destinations. I expect that the total passenger capacity exceeds that of the BCF fleet (they do not move cars, though). |
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Post by Mike C on Apr 29, 2008 19:54:30 GMT -8
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Post by ruddernut on May 2, 2008 21:05:17 GMT -8
Port Moody to Downtown - heck, West Coast Express goes this route, they're extending the Evergreen line this way already. Perhaps use sea mode from Port Moody to downtown to free up SkyTrain for those headed to INTERMEDIATE destinations other than DOWNTOWN (seeing as they are building up city centres such as Highgate, Metrotown, Brentwood, etc etc....) Leave the "short haul" people on the Train, stick the "end-to-end"ers on the Water! The WCE is for just that--an express ride between PoMo and Downtown. And it's faster, smoother and more fuel efficient than any parallel ferry service will be. Langley/Fort Langley to Downtown - well, they are planning the rapid bus, but that is subject to all kinds of surface congestion. They are not planning on extending SkyTrain into Langley city yet, so Sea transport looks pretty good. Bus them all to the old Albion ferry landing and sail them to Downtown - again, see point above about INTERMEDIATE destinations. Maple Ridge - expand on the just above idea and grab the people that have to take the WetCoast Express train. There are lots of options if you look at them. I am not sure how quick a service would be, but you would have to make the time attractive over what is currently offered. With only buses, the Surrey/Langley part of things still all has to feed into the SkyTrain somewhere -- either Scott Road or Surrey Central for the most part. There is no link up at Guildford yet (shopping and also residential hub) which is just very poor planning on a master level from Translink. So grab people by boat from around Barnston ... run them to downtown. If it is under 40 minutes (which is Scott Road to Waterfront) then it could be made to work. Plus look at all the congestion that it takes off SkyTrain. Living in Surrey, I can speak well to the MAD crushes in the morning commute and trying to load on at Scott Road (3rd station from the beginning of the Surrey end) and having FULL TRAINS already with no room to board -- it was to the point where most experienced commuters into Scott Road were heading UPSTREAM to Surrey Central to get on empty cars and heading BACK TO WATERFRONT just for the sake of getting on. (I speak of the early trains before 7:30am mostly).. You mean shuttle them all the way around Point Grey? Now that is just getting impractical and silly. If rail transit options are reaching capacity, make necessary expansions to them instead. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 2, 2008 21:15:48 GMT -8
I was not even thinking about the North Shore as a unit in my post, rather I was trying to connect the other suburbs to Downtown Vancouver. Short of chopping out more bear/deer habitat or blasting away cliffs, I think that the NS is about as developed as it is going to get. The other option is re-development to increase density, but that is specifically why people paid more in the District and WV to live there. To hell with the NIMBYs. Just because they paid more doesn't mean their area should be protected from densification anymore than, say, Surrey, especially if there is more market demand to develop their prime location. What needs to happen is for the Skytrain or Canada Line to eventually be extended under Burrard Inlet to the North Shore. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 2, 2008 21:37:00 GMT -8
Third Seabus, eh? How does "Burrard Marmot" sound? But marmots aren't aquatic. It'll probably be Seal. |
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Post by WettCoast on May 2, 2008 22:57:39 GMT -8
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Post by ruddernut on May 3, 2008 4:14:04 GMT -8
I mentioned the transit ferries in Sydney, Australia earlier. Here is a link to go surfing on: www.sydneyferries.info/about-us.htmThe Sydney harbour fleet consits of 31 vessels, and routes serve 39 destinations. I expect that the total passenger capacity exceeds that of the BCF fleet (they do not move cars, though). That looks like overkill. Why have so many hops between points that have shorter land routes connecting them? |
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Post by ruddernut on May 3, 2008 4:15:41 GMT -8
So what other vessel names did they have in the fleet? |
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Post by Mill Bay on May 3, 2008 20:41:49 GMT -8
As I have already said, the Seabuses were not named for aquatic animals, but after 19th century Hudson's Bay Company steamers operated on the North American Pacific coast. It was those original boats that were named for the animals who's skins were prized by the HBC. Indirectly, though, they are also named after the animals beaver and otter, as well, because these two animals were the staple products of the land and sea-based fur trade that the HBC initially engaged in, so what else would they choose to name their ships after? However, naming the seabusses after those earlier ships is also still a reference to the actual furry animals themselves. Incidentally, the official publication of the HBC was also named The Beaver as well. |
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Post by Nickfro on Jun 11, 2008 11:25:27 GMT -8
The 3rd Seabus contract was announced today. WMG Victoria will build it. Summer 2009 is the anticipated completion. Once in service, it will become MLU time for the other 2 vessels. (I think they'll refit both the Otter and the Beaver, but they only specify that one is going to get refitted. . .doesn't make much sense to me) It's anticipated that all 3 will run together starting in 2010 at peak hours, making it 10 minutes between departures instead of 15. Vancouver Sun ArticleCBC News Article |
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Post by Gunny on Jun 11, 2008 18:38:25 GMT -8
I get to make a troll-ish comment.
So based on the Island Sky, the new seabus will be prepared just in time to do sea-trials during the olympics
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Post by ruddernut on Jun 12, 2008 1:47:30 GMT -8
A better expansion would be from the Seabus terminal over to West Van to Ambelside. I think a Seabus would be too slow for that. You'd be looking at something like a half-hour crossing. |
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Post by Dane on Jun 12, 2008 7:42:08 GMT -8
(I think they'll refit both the Otter and the Beaver, but they only specify that one is going to get refitted. . .doesn't make much sense to me) Capital is already in place for both vessels to recieve extensive work, and perhaps radically redesigned internally (read: standing room). |
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Post by Dane on Nov 7, 2008 11:31:08 GMT -8
You know, even with trashy names like CR, CI, CC and Island Sky I do love this era of public input into things like ship names. Translink has afforded an opportunity to name the new SeaBus, and unlike BC Ferries they don't appear to be afraid of their past and give a preamble on how the previous two were named! www.translink.bc.ca/About_TransLink/News_Releases/news11060801.asp |
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Post by Nick on Nov 7, 2008 11:50:27 GMT -8
If you recall, BCF had a naming contest for the Coastal names. Unfortunately, they ignored everybody's suggestions and came up with their own anyway. Actually, I think it was a conglomerate of several suggestions, but still....... it sucks. Hopefully Translink actually listens to the submissions for their new boat. www.bcferries.com/about/newbuild/Super_C-class_Names_Contest_Prizes.html |
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Post by Dane on Nov 7, 2008 12:09:32 GMT -8
If you recall, BCF had a naming contest for the Coastal names. Unfortunately, they ignored everybody's suggestions and came up with their own anyway. Actually, I think it was a conglomerate of several suggestions, but still....... it sucks. Hopefully Translink actually listens to the submissions for their new boat. www.bcferries.com/about/newbuild/Super_C-class_Names_Contest_Prizes.htmlI do recall, I frequently cry... ;D Seriously.... Coastal Inspiration, Coastal Celebration? Something great was being smoked.  |
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