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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 22, 2012 20:32:31 GMT -8
It would be nice if we could talk about the boats and enjoy sharing times, and rides, and use this forum for something other then a snoopy the dog feast of how, who knows more then the people that work on them and, what a consultant says. I for one Like the New boats and have been on them quite abit, and was on sea-trails for the Chetzemoka to begin with. But hey Let keep talking about how awful they are and what kind of tub toys consultants want!
Either make a new area for ranting and raving about how much you hate the ferries, and let us chat about the boats and why we like them, or some of us are going to leave, and I know I am NOT alone in tired of this bitching. We have the new boats they work. GET OVER IT! That comment is out-of-touch with the reality of this forum. So based on how some good-discussion has made you invoke the forum's automatic word-censor, I'd say that you probably should leave. This is not a fan site. It's a ferry discussion forum. We expect that people should be able to read other viewpoints without losing their cool. I think a request for a separate ranting-page is ridiculous and is one of the most unreasonable forum-suggestions that I've ever seen. If people are unable to tolerate discussion, then this entire forum is not a good fit for those types of people. ----------------- Recently, I was wondering, with the recent good discussion about Chetzemoka's problems, why the "fan only people" were silent. Why can't over-the-top fandom be tempered with logical even-tempered discussion? |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Feb 22, 2012 21:49:17 GMT -8
I am sorry if I have caused a problem. That wasn't my intent. It seems like everything regarding the Chetzy is how much 2 certan people hate it. I am sorry that bothers others but, I am tired of all the hate and discores about it. As someone that has worked on it and helped get it to where it is, and I do take great offense to all the complaining and yes bitching about something that I helped work on and was there much of it's building and it is offensive that someone that doesn't know how it really is posts all these posts like they are facts when they aren't. I may just take the suggestion and leave.
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Post by lmtengs on Feb 22, 2012 22:04:14 GMT -8
I am sorry if I have caused a problem. That wasn't my intent. It seems like everything regarding the Chetzy is how much 2 certan people hate it. I am sorry that bothers others but, I am tired of all the hate and discores about it. As someone that has worked on it and helped get it to where it is, and I do take great offense to all the complaining and yes bitching about something that I helped work on and was there much of it's building and it is offensive that someone that doesn't know how it really is posts all these posts like they are facts when they aren't. I may just take the suggestion and leave. They're not complaining about your work. What you did, you did marvelously. She's a good ship. The issue is that there were some issues that were overlooked in her design. Some of these should have been seen, noted, and corrected, but some others couldn't have been helped, especially on the short timeframe that WSF had to get the KDT class from concept to construction. Washington State had to churn out three ships, and they had to churn out those three ships quickly. |
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Post by rusty on Feb 22, 2012 22:07:29 GMT -8
Well, I rode the Kennewick to Port Townsend this evening in a westerly gale and I will say, that in my thirty years of using this route, it's about the same as always.
What is truly damning about the KdT's though, is that they consume twice the fuel of the eighty year-old boats they replaced--with no increase in vehicle capacity! That is inexcusable, and unacceptable.
Otherwise, they are nice boats to ride.
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Neil
Voyager 
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Post by Neil on Feb 22, 2012 23:10:44 GMT -8
I am sorry if I have caused a problem. That wasn't my intent. It seems like everything regarding the Chetzy is how much 2 certan people hate it. I am sorry that bothers others but, I am tired of all the hate and discores about it. As someone that has worked on it and helped get it to where it is, and I do take great offense to all the complaining and yes bitching about something that I helped work on and was there much of it's building and it is offensive that someone that doesn't know how it really is posts all these posts like they are facts when they aren't. I may just take the suggestion and leave. Sheesh, if we were talking about your mother, I could understand you getting your back up. But these are boats, and some of the criticism has been over what seems to be fairly reasonable engineering and operating concerns. The Chetzemoka, and the Queen of Chilliwack, continue to sail despite the critiques. They're made of steel; they can take it. |
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chief
Chief Steward
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Post by chief on Feb 23, 2012 4:47:22 GMT -8
Continuous improvement means applying lessons learned to future projects. To do so it is necessary to face the reality of the problems created by a particular design or system or machine. Hating a machine is not a part of the process and it is not going on here.
WSF, subject only to the will of politicians, particularly from Whidbey Island, will inevitably choose to live with the higher fuel consumption of these vessels. It has no other available course, the Coast Guard will take considerable notice of periodic stack fires if they do not change how they operate the ship. The politics behind further substantial investment in these vessels is impossible, all of the people who own the bad decisions that went into this ship are still in office.
The legacy of the KDTs will be that they look "nice", they lean over, they are hard to load sometimes, steer well and maintain poorly. They are expensive to operate and do raise the pressure on the rest of WSF to become even more efficient, to raise fares and further reduce crew compensation.
The KDTs are actually a great example of what can take place if we forget the lessons of history, in this case the Issaquahs. That experience should not have fadded to the extent that it would allow the KDTs to happen but it did. It did because the people who successfully struggled with the problems they brought us have now retired and so their legacy is unknown to the modern WSF manager and politician.
The mistakes of the Issaquah class paved the way for corrections applied to the Jumbo MKIIs and so let us hope that the KDTs lead to a better outcome for the 144 class. If they do that then their problems will have served a constructive purpose.
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Post by Mike C on Feb 23, 2012 10:21:50 GMT -8
I am sorry if I have caused a problem. That wasn't my intent. It seems like everything regarding the Chetzy is how much 2 certan people hate it. I am sorry that bothers others but, I am tired of all the hate and discores about it. As someone that has worked on it and helped get it to where it is, and I do take great offense to all the complaining and yes bitching about something that I helped work on and was there much of it's building and it is offensive that someone that doesn't know how it really is posts all these posts like they are facts when they aren't. I may just take the suggestion and leave. These are facts. I think you should take a piece of your own advice and get over it. Not all ships are perfect. I'm from BC and I've never taken it, but I am reading the facts regarding fuel consumption, capacity, and one can't help but wonder where everyone's minds were in the design process. I understand that you have a distinct pride and attachment to this particular vessel, but this kind of vessel design would be unacceptable in most situations in British Columbia. As Flugel said, we are not a fan group - we are a group that asks for honesty, accountability and integrity from those elected officials who are responsible for spending tax dollars to provide transportation infrastructure - and if we feel that our/your money is going to waste (as it is quite clearly here) then we will bring that to the forefront. |
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Post by chokai on Feb 23, 2012 11:06:59 GMT -8
There is a significant difference between complaining and constructive criticism. We have long since passed into the complaining phase on the KdTs for the most part. One need only wade through the threads about this where every 3rd post is a rehash of the same issue with little to no information. I have no issues with discussing project failures, indeed I do it for a living, but I do have serious issues with the 10th "wall of text" about the same issue in which no new or pertinent information is presented. Even worse is people going on and on about the same issue ad-naseum in the apparent hope that someone, or a particular individual will come around to thier viewpoint, that actually is counter productive to discussion.
And Flugel, telling someone in public to leave the forum is completely out of line and will only serve to stifle the conversation you claim to seek rather than encouraging it.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 23, 2012 11:14:50 GMT -8
And Flugel, telling someone in public to leave the forum is completely out of line and will only serve to stifle the conversation you claim to seek rather than encouraging it. I was responding to his own suggestion that he was thinking of leaving. - Based on his expectations for what kinds of discussion would be allowed, I reached the easy conclusion that his suggestion of leaving was wise. - Take a look at his original post (which he deleted, but which appears as a quote in my reply) where he brings up the idea of leaving. I'd also tell that to anyone else who has unreasonable expectations of moving ferry-criticism out of the forum. If it's not a good fit, then it's not a good fit. |
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Post by chokai on Feb 23, 2012 11:20:45 GMT -8
And Flugel, telling someone in public to leave the forum is completely out of line and will only serve to stifle the conversation you claim to seek rather than encouraging it. I was responding to his own suggestion that he was thinking of leaving. - Based on his expectations for what kinds of discussion would be allowed, I reached the easy conclusion that his suggestion of leaving was wise. - take a look at his original post (which he deleted, which appears as a quote in my reply) where he brings up the idea of leaving. I'd also tell that to anyone else who has unreasonable expectations of moving ferry-criticism out of the forum. If it's not a good fit, then it's not a good fit. I did read it the deleted post, and I still stand by my assertion that telling him to leave is out of line as a moderator. You distinctly gave the impression of taking sides. Instead you should have inquired as to specific changes and concerns he had, most ideally in a PM IMO. I also stand by my assertion that what you are having right now is not a "discussion" but rather complaining. You asked why the "fans" are not participating and there is your answer, two of us have posted about it now. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 23, 2012 11:25:53 GMT -8
I was responding to his own suggestion that he was thinking of leaving. - Based on his expectations for what kinds of discussion would be allowed, I reached the easy conclusion that his suggestion of leaving was wise. - take a look at his original post (which he deleted, which appears as a quote in my reply) where he brings up the idea of leaving. I'd also tell that to anyone else who has unreasonable expectations of moving ferry-criticism out of the forum. If it's not a good fit, then it's not a good fit. I did read it the deleted post, and I still stand by my assertion that telling him to leave is out of line as a moderator. You distinctly gave the impression of taking sides. Instead you should have inquired as to specific changes and concerns he had, most ideally in a PM IMO. I also stand by my assertion that what you are having right now is not a "discussion" but rather complaing. You asked why the "fans" are not participating and there is your answer, two of us have posted about it now. I guess we'll respectfully disagree on both matters. |
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mrdot
Voyager
Mr. DOT
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Post by mrdot on Feb 23, 2012 12:36:21 GMT -8
:)you know the marine history of our north pacific coast is filled with vessel's and developments that are chequered to say the least, and we always have gone on from that point, and will continue to do so! We have gone thru the fast cat era here in BC, and the repercussions are an unsustainable debt that will have an ongoing effect on our ferry system for years to come, partly because we made a bad marine decision worse by adviserial politics! that being said, there is no way we will ever depolitize our marine history, and the coast has had many white elephants, eg. the CNR princes of the 1930's, and our present norex! I leave the discussion of your Washington state vessels to our southern neighbours! :)mrdot.
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Post by Barnacle on Feb 23, 2012 15:06:49 GMT -8
:)you know the marine history of our north pacific coast is filled with vessel's and developments that are chequered to say the least, and we always have gone on from that point, and will continue to do so! We have gone thru the fast cat era here in BC, and the repercussions are an unsustainable debt that will have an ongoing effect on our ferry system for years to come, partly because we made a bad marine decision worse by adviserial politics! that being said, there is no way we will ever depolitize our marine history, and the coast has had many white elephants, eg. the CNR princes of the 1930's, and our present norex! I leave the discussion of your Washington state vessels to our southern neighbours! :)mrdot. That is a wise summation, sir. I think you could easily move it south of the border and it wouldn't lose anything in the translation. Personally, I more or less dropped out of this thread a while back because it was clear that nobody--myself included--was going to open the pod bay doors, so that particular conversation could serve no further useful purpose. |
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Post by alaskanmohican on Feb 23, 2012 16:25:23 GMT -8
There is a significant difference between complaining and constructive criticism. We have long since passed into the complaining phase on the KdTs for the most part. One need only wade through the threads about this where every 3rd post is a rehash of the same issue with little to no information. I have no issues with discussing project failures, indeed I do it for a living, but I do have serious issues with the 10th "wall of text" about the same issue in which no new or pertinent information is presented. Even worse is people going on and on about the same issue ad-naseum in the apparent hope that someone, or a particular individual will come around to thier viewpoint, that actually is counter productive to discussion. And Flugel, telling someone in public to leave the forum is completely out of line and will only serve to stifle the conversation you claim to seek rather than encouraging it. I did read it the deleted post, and I still stand by my assertion that telling him to leave is out of line as a moderator. You distinctly gave the impression of taking sides. Instead you should have inquired as to specific changes and concerns he had, most ideally in a PM IMO. I also stand by my assertion that what you are having right now is not a "discussion" but rather complaining. You asked why the "fans" are not participating and there is your answer, two of us have posted about it now. I agree with these quotes, that makes three. This has become the great armchair quarterbacking forum where insights from those within the industry is dismissed all so a few can continue with their pitch forks and torches. And apparently the "discussion" here has discouraged some from participating; Personally, I more or less dropped out of this thread a while back because it was clear that nobody--myself included--was going to open the pod bay doors, so that particular conversation could serve no further useful purpose. Sorry if I offend, I just think that the whole situation last night was mishandled. The moderator response did come across as more of a argument against a certain point of view, plus I have noticed a few responses to whidbeyislandguy contain the same vitriol and have not been moderated. Well, I've said my bit, time to go now. |
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 23, 2012 16:50:24 GMT -8
Sorry if I offend, I just think that the whole situation last night was mishandled. The moderator response did come across as more of a argument against a certain point of view, plus I have noticed a few responses to whidbeyislandguy contain the same vitriol and have not been moderated. Well, I've said my bit, time to go now. If you go back and read last night's posts in this thread, you'll see that all I was doing was responding to the member's specific ultimatum that if negative-posts weren't moved to a separate-section of the forum, then he'd leave. Really, that's what he said. It was that simple. - I told him that his suggestion was ridiculous and that based on the options that he demanded (to move the criticism posts, or to leave) that he should probably leave. And I don't think anything's changed in how I see that issue. We won't be moving critical/questioning posts to another section of the forum. - The ex-member last night demanded that, and the answer was "No". So he defaulted to his other choice, which was to leave. People will continue to tune-in & tune-out the threads that interest and disinterest them. When people complain or make poorly reasoned arguments for why a "ferry sucks", then other people will challenge that assertion. Sometimes we'll just ignore the complainers. Other-times we'll be mildly entertained by the silly ideas of "why don't they do this?". |
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 23, 2012 16:53:43 GMT -8
I completely disagree with chokai, alaskanmohican and whidbeyislandguy. I think the moderator response was appropriate, and was in reply to someone who wanted to shut down an area of discussion. It wasn't the first time that the ex-member was essentially telling people to shut up if they couldn't be cheerful enough.
Virtually everything about the ferry world carries an element of repetition. The same boats go back and forth on the same routes on the same schedules month after month. The systems have ongoing virtues and ongoing weaknesses. The photos that people post, while very often artistic and enjoyable, are often unavoidably rehashes of images we've seen before. If you're going to shut down every contribution to this forum that's not entirely novel, you're going to be left with very little.
The moderator response was essentially to tell someone that the forum was going to remain open to critical posting, as well as to fan oriented posting, and if that didn't suit someone's tastes, they had the option to withdraw.
Barnacle says he tired of the thrust of the discussion on the Chetzemoka's drawbacks, and so curtailed his participation. I think that's the appropriate response, rather than telling other people to be more fan-like. Of course, there's also the option to change the thread's direction- which isn't really hard to do.
I don't like the notion of segregating participation by staying on our own sides of the border. Participating should be based on interest, and not necessarily expertise.
I'd like to ask the people who want to shut down the 'complaining'- just what do you want the discussion to be? An exclusive diet of fan talk is no more edifying than one of solid criticism.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 23, 2012 17:47:55 GMT -8
I will say this:
The opinions and experiences of those who actually work on the boat and can see its benefits far outweighing any perceived negative drawbacks far outweigh any negative or otherwise "critical" complaint about the boat from armchair quarterback-type "consultants" who think the Chetz is nothing more than scrapyard fodder.
In short, I think the treatment of whidbeyislandguy was not only improper, but way out of line.
His opinion - coming from that as having worked on the boat and knows it better than anyone else here - means more than those who just sit back and look at numbers.
Because I can tell you from experience - running a business just solely based on numbers can also lead to failure.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 23, 2012 18:13:28 GMT -8
In short, I think the treatment of whidbeyislandguy was not only improper, but way out of line. How so? He gave a loud ultimatum with 2 options, and I told him that option-1 wasn't going to happen. He then chose his 2nd option. He didn't have to. - no one deleted his posts, and no one banned his account. |
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Post by rusty on Feb 23, 2012 18:26:41 GMT -8
I will say this: The opinions and experiences of those who actually work on the boat and can see its benefits far outweighing any perceived negative drawbacks far outweigh any negative or otherwise "critical" complaint about the boat from armchair quarterback-type "consultants" who think the Chetz is nothing more than scrapyard fodder. .... His opinion - coming from that as having worked on the boat and knows it better than anyone else here - means more than those who just sit back and look at numbers. The comments here have been kind to what I've heard from those who actually work the boat. The experienced high fuel consumption on a new boat, in this day and age, is a very big problem. There are serious problems with the other two KdT's, but I agree with other posters--they're here, they lean, get use to it.  |
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Post by chokai on Feb 23, 2012 18:31:25 GMT -8
How about a PM saying: "Hey I see your really upset about the onging direction and discussion in the forum on the Chetzemoka. Can you talk to me about your specific concerns?" What you said was basically: "This is the way it is if you don't agree then sure go away." If you call up a business all upset to complain about a product will they generally tell you to "go away" or will they attempt to keep your business through perhaps convincing you that you incorrectly used the product or that maybe they have another one that will work better for you? A few PMs and a sympathetic ear might've kept a forum member. Sorry if it comes across as harsh, I really don't mean to but there isn't a way to put this particularly delicately in my view, or at least I'm not wise enough where I can think of one right now. |
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Post by Mike C on Feb 23, 2012 18:45:07 GMT -8
I'm finding it difficult to understand at what point the moderation stepped out of line. This guy was asking for a completely unprecedented request to shape discussion of this forum to a "fan group." This is a forum. Simple as that.
FORUM (noun) - an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.
The benefit of discussion is to establish an understanding on how to do it better next time. This kind of debate is important - although not to the point of continuous rehashing, as Barnacle pointed out.
Steve, just because someone doesn't work on a ship or was not in attendance at the launch, doesn't discount their opinion of how a vessel should operate. I have little experience riding on the WSF (only been on 5 of your vessels), but I do understand how a ferry operation should work, just as most of us here on the forum. When we see something not functioning as it should, we begin to question what exactly is going on.
Repetition is necessary sometimes, though, as Neil pointed out. Even the dullest of literate individuals can muster both IQ points together and spend five seconds on the BC section to understand what the main issue is. And that issues has been discussed repeatedly, and we all know what the consensus will be. My point is, the reasons for problems usually have a common denominator.
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Post by Mike C on Feb 23, 2012 18:49:19 GMT -8
How about a PM saying: "Hey I see your really upset about the onging direction and discussion in the forum on the Chetzemoka. Can you talk to me about your specific concerns?" What you said was basically: "This is the way it is if you don't agree then sure go away." If you call up a business all upset to complain about a product will they generally tell you to "go away" or will they attempt to keep your business through perhaps convincing you that you incorrectly used the product or that maybe they have another one that will work better for you? A few PMs and a sympathetic ear might've kept a forum member. Sorry if it comes across as harsh, I really don't mean to but there isn't a way to put this particularly delicately in my view, or at least I'm not wise enough where I can think of one right now. But this is not a business. How can you compare a business to a discussion board? I don't understand where the similarities are. A business keeps you around because your money is valuable. A forum is a place for your voice to be heard, and if you don't want to be a part of it, that's your own problem. This is more like someone coming into a public consultation meeting, being a major donor to the politician in power, saying "Hey, why don't we all just shut up and talk about why everything this person does is good?" Nothing gets done, no one is held accountable, and it is INCREDIBLY boring. |
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Post by Kahloke on Feb 23, 2012 20:20:41 GMT -8
I've been following this discussion all day, and it's been somewhat amusing to watch. While I am sorry whidbeyislandguy took offense at some comments made on this topic, it really was his choice to leave the forum. We didn't push him out. What I said before still holds true. This is a diverse forum where many ideas and opinions get bantered back and forth. No, we're not all experts, some of us are just "armchair quarterbacks", but that is the nature of a forum. It's great when we do get experts weighing in on something with actual experience or facts to back their point of view up, but at the end of the day, everything expressed here is just an opinion, just one point of view. We do have rules to keep discussions from degrading into offensive, name calling, mud slinging (we'll leave that to the politicians ;D), but a good healthy debate of the kind we've been seeing here is exactly what this forum is all about. If whidbeyislandguy would like to come back to the forum and offer up a productive counterpoint to the Chetzemoka debate, I, for one, would welcome him back. His opinions are just as valuable as anyone else's around here.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 23, 2012 22:32:48 GMT -8
I've been following this discussion all day, and it's been somewhat amusing to watch. While I am sorry whidbeyislandguy took offense at some comments made on this topic, it really was his choice to leave the forum. We didn't push him out. What I said before still holds true. This is a diverse forum where many ideas and opinions get bantered back and forth. No, we're not all experts, some of us are just "armchair quarterbacks", but that is the nature of a forum. It's great when we do get experts weighing in on something with actual experience or facts to back their point of view up, but at the end of the day, everything expressed here is just an opinion, just one point of view. We do have rules to keep discussions from degrading into offensive, name calling, mud slinging (we'll leave that to the politicians ;D), but a good healthy debate of the kind we've been seeing here is exactly what this forum is all about. If whidbeyislandguy would like to come back to the forum and offer up a productive counterpoint to the Chetzemoka debate, I, for one, would welcome him back. His opinions are just as valuable as anyone else's around here. I'd also suggest that there's a fairly straightforward way for people who dislike the thrust of discussion to change things; post more often. An internet forum lives and dies with the frequency of people's participation, and if the most frequent participants have a certain interest, that's the direction things are likely to go in. One of the departed members posted very infrequently, and sometimes, when he attempted to change the focus, he prefaced his remarks with a rather sour assault on dialogue that he disliked. Not the best tactic. If someone wants a more positive spin on all things Chetzemoka, they should just ignore the critiques, and turn things in a different direction. If they have anything interesting to say, chances are others will respond. There are countless examples on this forum of threads changing focus. Chief and others have been castigated for their criticism, but I don't recall one instance where Chief ever remarked, "Hey, cool it with all the fan talk, bub. We're complaining here." And while the saying "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" might have worked well in Emily Post's house, it's not the most promising framework for lively discussion. There's room for fan stuff, photos, and controversy, and if you don't like the angle, then take an active role in re-focusing things, or, find another thread where the attitude is more to your liking. |
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Post by chokai on Feb 24, 2012 0:02:24 GMT -8
But this is not a business. How can you compare a business to a discussion board? I don't understand where the similarities are. A business keeps you around because your money is valuable. A forum is a place for your voice to be heard, and if you don't want to be a part of it, that's your own problem. This is more like someone coming into a public consultation meeting, being a major donor to the politician in power, saying "Hey, why don't we all just shut up and talk about why everything this person does is good?" Nothing gets done, no one is held accountable, and it is INCREDIBLY boring. Your voice is your currency, or rather everyone's opinions and thoughts and knowledge are. Lose that you reduce the value of the forum. Sure he was extremely upset, and though his request had an underlying commentary about this forum having been wrapped around the axle for the last year, it was surely still silly overall. But it was handled poorly, instead of calming him down and figuring out what the issue really was and seeing if we could do anything about it we lost a knowledgable forum member. That's my concern here and I think for several others also. It is a totally seperate issue from the discussion in the forum. We could've been debating Pepsi vs Coke in the galley's (I vote Coke) and I would've responded the same. Your analogy on the wealthy donor is good I like it. We have several people who are extremely knowledgable and well informed whose opinions should carry great weight and they do, thier "currency" is high. But regardless of who people are if someone repeats something enough it is boring and everyone else will stop paying attention. It appears myself and several others have simply grown tired of the same issue being run through again and again. No doubt our opinions on that matter have been registered and I know they will be respected, last time they most certainly were. Heck I've posted like 4 times on this topic, I'd bet a lot of money a fair # of people are already ignoring me today!  |
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