FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Mar 18, 2008 8:27:30 GMT -8
Great idea!
The QUINAULT has an elevator. Would make a great community center. Put her in the Quincy Street dock.
Now, if I get my way and WSF names the IH-like ferries MV QUILLAYUTE and MV QUILCENE, you have three "Q-boats" there in the city on Quimper Peninsula.
I think I've satisfactorily used the letter "Q" sufficiently in this posting! ;D
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Post by BreannaF on Mar 30, 2008 3:12:25 GMT -8
I'm going to give David Moseley the benefit of the doubt here and presume that any recent mentions of bringing back any one of the Steel-Electrics is just a matter of proving to the uneducated masses that he is willing to look at all possibilities to solve the current problem in Port Townsend. The only lingering doubt in the back of my mind is that since the state (rather than the Coast Guard) was the ones to put the boats out of service, then they could put one back into service (very) temporarily, perhaps. If the state decides not to build a Steilacoom-clone after all, there would be about 5-6 months between when we would have to return the Steilacoom II and the date an Island Home-clone is proposed to be finished. If Moseley really thinks it can be done, how many millions would it cost to prepare one of the boats for another 6 months of service? If it's not too many, I can see where he might possibly even consider this for an option. So, what do you think? Three really good coats of paint on the hull, and the Coast Guard should approve that, right? I just think it's a political delaying tactic.
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Post by Nickfro on Mar 30, 2008 8:21:53 GMT -8
Saw a bit on a Seattle news station this morning about the possibilities of using one or all of the 4 ships as retail outlets or sinking them for diving reefs instead of simply scrapping them.
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Post by Barnacle on Mar 30, 2008 18:54:10 GMT -8
All the bits put forth thus far have been done so by people wanting the state to give them the boats.
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Post by BreannaF on Apr 11, 2008 6:27:14 GMT -8
Can we safely put these boats to bed now? I think so. Note that Moseley had the PR Representative on the other line -- just in case he started trying to speak in a foreign language again..... After using divination to read the cracks on the bottom of the hulls as if they were tea leaves in the bottom of the cup, the ferry system decided to permanently retire the boats. Or something like that. =========================================================== www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20080411/NEWS/804110306Wish all you want, but Klickitat is goneBy Paul Gottlieb, Peninsula Daily News PORT TOWNSEND — Repairing and bringing back the Steel Electric-class ferry Klickitat won't happen. Many ferry riders had hoped the Klickitat's decrepit hull could be repaired or replaced so it could return to service on the Port Townsend-Keystone run. It's bigger and more efficient than the Steilacoom II, which has taken its place, and the hope was it would be a quick fix instead of ferry riders waiting more than a year for a permanent solution. The new state ferry system's chief, David Moseley, gave hope to Klickitat fans two weeks ago. As he introduced himself to ferry-dependent communities, he gushed that all avenues were being explored, indicating that this possibly included the Klickitat's return. He told The Whidbey Examiner on March 28 that "all options are open," and he made a similar comment in Port Townsend. This led to the incorrect impression the Klickitat might be repaired. "I probably should have said 'all reasonable options,' but I said what I said, and I take responsibility for that," Moseley told me in a telephone interview. He was on a speaker phone, with a ferries system PR representative, Hadley Greene, listening in. The repair option "was looked at pretty thoroughly before the decision was made to withdraw the Steel Electrics," he added. As everyone knows, the ferry system's four 1927-vintage Steel Electrics — the Klickitat, Quinault, Illahee and Nisqually — were taken out of service last Nov. 20 because of severe hull cracks and corrosion. After studying the hulls, the ferry system decided to permanently retire the boats. According to one study, replacing the hull on the Quinault would cost $8 million. "The Klickitat has needs beyond was needed on the Quinault and the Illahee — i.e., it required approximately $2 million work to replace the stern tubes and remove concrete in the bilges, in addition to the cost to remove all the interior and exterior paint, inspect the steel hull plating and replace any bad steel," Greene said in an e-mail. Still, the prospect of repairing the 81-year-old vessel became even more enticing March 27 when state ferries received just one bid for a 50-car vessel to replace the Klickitat — which was then rejected. That's because Todd Pacific Shipyards Corp. of Seattle's bid was $25.9 million — 53 percent over the state engineer's estimate for the work (the estimate was actually prepared by an outside consultant and then reviewed and approved by ferries staff). Moseley has met with Todd representatives twice to understand more fully Todd's reasoning — and to come up with a more affordable and realistic bid solicitation. He said state engineers may have underestimated the cost of construction. For its part, Todd won't budge from its original bid if presented with the same specs. "We aren't negotiating on the numbers we submitted," company spokesman John Lockwood, a retired Coast Guard rear admiral, said Thursday. The ferry system wants to build one new ferry based on the 50-car, 300-passenger Steilacoom II, which the state is leasing from Pierce County for the Port Townsend-Keystone run. The state Legislature has budgeted $100 million for that vessel (which was to begin service in May 2009) and for two based on the much more beefy, 64-car Island Home ferry that now carries passengers between Martha's Vineyard and Wood's Hole in Massachusetts. The plans now are for a new bid package to be ready by May that can result in a new Port Townsend-Keystone vessel being built and put in operation by July 2009, a month before the Steilacoom II lease expires. That is, if the state doesn't find another ferry somewhere else. Moseley is looking for a U.S.-flagged vessel that could be purchased or leased for the route. It must be small and deft enough to slide into the narrow, shallow Keystone dock. "It does require a unique boat, and we are working hard to find that unique boat," Moseley said. No matter how hard he works at the task, Moseley must confine his search to the United States. Under the federal Jones Act, all vessels that carry goods and passengers between U.S. ports must have been built in the United States. Waivers are granted by the U.S. Maritime Administration, but only for such reasons as national security, Greene said — and the ferry system does not intend to apply for such a waiver. For the foreseeable future, the Steilacoom II will continue serving the Port Townsend-Keystone run. Still, it represents a 60 percent reduction in service compared to last summer, when the trip was made by the Klickitat and a second state ferry. To handle expected heavy summer traffic, a free reservation system for the Steilacoom II will go into effect by the start of the June 22 summer schedule, Port Townsend Chamber of Commerce General Manger Tim Caldwell said Thursday.
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 11, 2008 7:49:03 GMT -8
None the less, this won't can the dreamers' endeavours... ;D
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Post by farout on Apr 17, 2008 20:53:52 GMT -8
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Quatchi
Voyager
Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
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Post by Quatchi on Apr 17, 2008 21:27:02 GMT -8
BCF sold the Queen of sydney with a tank of gas for less than that.
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Post by In Washington on Apr 18, 2008 6:46:23 GMT -8
Using a Steel Electric as a floating tourist attraction/parking/whatever else they might dream of.
Aside from the fact that they leak, let's look at the dynamics of a boat floating on the Port Townsend waterfront:
1. Can anyone guess how parking cars on the boat might affect the trim? Do we trust the parking public to make sure the boat isn't listing?
2. How long a ramp (see transfer span) would it take to make a safe entry for cars and/or people walking aboard? About 150' if my memory serves. (remember we have about an average 12' tidal range in Townsend)
3. How fun is it going to be when it gets in a little rough and the boat is rising and falling. and rolling due to passing vessels and wind waves/swells.
The infrastructure alone to support something like this would be in the low millions and enviromental impacts would be a hard sell.
I think this is another Port Townsend pipe dream and they aren't smoking tobacco.
Let the Navy practice by sinking three of them and keep one tied up at Eagle Harbor and let people take pictures from the Bainbridge boats.
Of course I could be wrong
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Post by SS Shasta on Apr 18, 2008 9:48:00 GMT -8
I wonder if some folks in California would like to get a hold of them and "take them home?"
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Post by BreannaF on Apr 18, 2008 11:19:17 GMT -8
Using a Steel Electric as a floating tourist attraction/parking/whatever else they might dream of. I've even run some numbers and given this more thought than it deserves (a while back). In their current condition, I don't see where any legitimate for-profit party could do anything economically viable with those old boats. For the million dollars (and even that's likely not realistic) that someone might put into one of those, there would have to be quite a lot of admissions to make that back with the expenses of whetever they are using them for. I hadn't even thought of parking cars on them. But how many cars could you get on one of them -- and still leave enough room for people to get in and out. Remember, it's only a 50+ car ferry if the cars are all in nice bumper-to-bumper rows. It sure is fun to figure out what a person could do with an old Steel Electric, in the same way that is is fun to figure out how a person would spend their lottery winnings when the million dollar check comes in the mail. I just had a dream about burying them at Gasworks Park in Seattle and using it for more things for kids to climb on. But, heck, that's not even practical. But the most useful discussion really is the one that talks about the proper disposal of these fine old ferries. ================================================= I wonder if some folks in California would like to get a hold of them and "take them home?" The trouble with that is that with all the good parts have been completely rebuilt. There is not really a lot of "them" left above the water line.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Apr 18, 2008 20:29:33 GMT -8
Using a Steel Electric as a floating tourist attraction/parking/whatever else they might dream of. Aside from the fact that they leak, let's look at the dynamics of a boat floating on the Port Townsend waterfront: 1. Can anyone guess how parking cars on the boat might affect the trim? Do we trust the parking public to make sure the boat isn't listing? 2. How long a ramp (see transfer span) would it take to make a safe entry for cars and/or people walking aboard? About 150' if my memory serves. (remember we have about an average 12' tidal range in Townsend) 3. How fun is it going to be when it gets in a little rough and the boat is rising and falling. and rolling due to passing vessels and wind waves/swells. The infrastructure alone to support something like this would be in the low millions and enviromental impacts would be a hard sell. I think this is another Port Townsend pipe dream and they aren't smoking tobacco. Let the Navy practice by sinking three of them and keep one tied up at Eagle Harbor and let people take pictures from the Bainbridge boats. Of course I could be wrong Being aboard a silent ferry is very different and peaceful. I spent several weekends aboard the MV VASHON when she was in Port Townsend in 1985. Very still in calm waters, a deafening roar of silence. We had a windy night one weekend and she rocked a little bit. Lots of wind sounds through the Main Deck and some in the shelters on her Saloon Deck. Not to fear as we had good lines securing her to the old Quincy Street dock. As far as getting on and off, a gang plank was fastened to the transfer span with safeguard railings at each side. Rollers on the shipboard end of the plank did the adjusting as per tide levels and the occasional rocking. Bicycles were the only wheeled vehicles allowed to be driven on the plank and parked on the Main Deck. No cars. I think that planks would be used on a Steel-Electric if one was berthed in Port Townsend. A self adjusting one to the Main Deck, and a ramp and self adjusting plank to the Saloon Deck. No cars on the Main Deck. The Main Deck can be used for large functions like what the MV SANTA ROSA offers at Pier 3, San Francisco. Large dinner functions, class reunions, weddings, concerts, et al, would be on the activities menu on the Main Deck with more than 200 feet of usable interior space length.
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Post by EGfleet on Apr 21, 2008 8:32:21 GMT -8
Well, if there was any doubt that the Steel Electrics are officially done, this should remove it: Coast Guard permission to operate the Quinault -- known as a certificate of inspection -- expired Dec. 14. The same thing is set to happen Saturday for the Illahee and by mid-May for the Nisqually and the Klickitat. None of the Steel Electrics have ever met federal safety standards for watertight compartments, in effect since the 1950s. They operated under conditional Coast Guard approval that "grandfathered" their hulls. Ferry officials have been told that special approval disappears once the certificates expire, Coursey said.www.heraldnet.com/article/20080421/NEWS01/591103731&news01ad=1#State.to.solicit.new.bids.on.a.50-car.ferry
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 22, 2008 13:08:51 GMT -8
Now can we please lay to rest any wishful thinking on the topic?
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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 22, 2008 13:48:48 GMT -8
Now can we please lay to rest any wishful thinking on the topic? We can bloody well try, but my gut feeling tells me that just plum ain't gonna happen.
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Post by BreannaF on May 15, 2008 3:34:36 GMT -8
An article in today's Everett Herald retells the same old story about the people of Port Townsend wanting to moor the rusting hulk of the Klickitat on their waterfront because they "weren't modern, much like our town." The town meeting happened the day that the COI ran out on the Klickitat. It's worth a read just to review the situation, but the townsfolk don't really know what they are getting into if they attempt this folly. **EDIT** OK, the sidebar that went with the article is good for a laugh. Sort of: Ideas float, ferries don't: Now that the Coast Guard has ruled that the Steel Electric ferries' days of plying state waters are over, the state ferry system is taking suggesting as to what to do with the Klickitat and her three sister boats. Our suggestions: # Stack them and create a maritime-theme parking garage. # Moor them next to the Kalakala, a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba and the bats of the Seattle Mariners and open the Northwest Museum of Oxidation. # Turn them into floating offices for state ferry officials and see if they continue to ignore the leaky hulls. One more idea: The U.S. Interior Department declared the polar bear a threatened species, noting that climate change continues to melt its ice habitat. The Bush administration immediately announced plans to buy the Steel Electric ferries as new habitat for the bears.
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Post by Northern Exploration on May 15, 2008 5:49:00 GMT -8
We had a 76 Cordoba. Younguns on the forum probably missed Ricardo Montalban saying Cordoba and Corinthian Leather. There was no such thing as Corinthian Leather but those marketing types made it up. It was a pretty cool car in its day. It had a 400 4 barrel that would really bark on the highway. Navy blue with a white landau top, opera lights, and white leather interior. Not that any of those terms mean anything these days . *ok this more subdued soundtrack than the one I remember and certainly not the visuals, but funny.
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Post by SS San Mateo on May 15, 2008 7:36:43 GMT -8
Last year all 4 of the steel-electrics made at least one trip on the Pt. Townsend - Keysone route (in the case of the Illahee, she made only one trip). Have there been any other times where all 4 of the steel-electrics have been used on the same route in the same year (either in WSF service or Black Ball service)?
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on May 15, 2008 10:53:21 GMT -8
Last year all 4 of the steel-electrics made at least one trip on the Pt. Townsend - Keysone route (in the case of the Illahee, she made only one trip). Have there been any other times where all 4 of the steel-electrics have been used on the same route in the same year (either in WSF service or Black Ball service)? Probably the Mukilteo-Clinton run. The Steel-Electrics did quite a musical chairs act on this run during maintenance season during the late 1970s early 1980s. Hard to keep track of this. October 9, 1980, was a date when you would see an almost entire set of Steel-Electrics on a single run on a single day. The NISQUALLY rammed Mukilteo in the late morning of October 8, 1980. Mukilteo was closed and the normal 14 minute run to Whidbey Island became a 55 minute cruise between Edmonds and Clinton. The KLICKITAT was brought down from Anacortes the next day and served with the ILLAHEE and NISQUALLY on the detour. Mukilteo service was restored on October 10, 1980, and the KLICKITAT returned to Anacortes. Had the QUINAULT not been affected by a printed schedule at Vashon Island, she sure would have joined this party on the detour. This all happened when the Steel-Electrics still had their wooden cabins. Here is what you saw on October 9, 1980 (this is from my Mukilteo timeline on the NW section of this forum): This was as close as you would ever get in seeing an entire fleet of Steel-Electrics on a single run on Puget Sound on a same date all serving together.
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Post by EGfleet on May 26, 2008 8:07:00 GMT -8
Incidentally, something should be coming up on the Steel E's soon. For those not keeping score, the legislature this session mandated that WSF come up with a concrete disposal plan no later than June 1 of this year. Mosely's update of May 16th states:
Steel Electric-Class Vessels Disposal We met with community leaders in Port Townsend on Wednesday to discuss plans for disposal of the vessels in keeping with our legislative deadline to be in the process of disposal of the vessels by June 1. It was a good conversation and our team will be following up.
Kind of ironic...June 1st will be 57 years to the day that the Steel E's became part of the WSF Fleet...
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 26, 2008 10:23:47 GMT -8
Hey Barnacle: Do you think that the same hull-testing procedures that were done on the Steel-E's should have also been done on the metal stem of the Memorial Cup ?? If you don't know what I'm referring to, check this out:
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Post by Barnacle on May 26, 2008 11:34:30 GMT -8
Hey Barnacle: Do you think that the same hull-testing procedures that were done on the Steel-E's should have also been done on the metal stem of the Memorial Cup ?? If you don't know what I'm referring to, check this out: Sheesh. Only Spokane. Nah... I don't think tightening the nut on the hull would've helped for the Steelies. ;D
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Post by SS San Mateo on May 30, 2008 8:07:18 GMT -8
From the "some people just won't <censored> give up!" file... Some want old ferries repairedwww.heraldnet.com/article/20080529/NEWS01/398996835#Some.want.old.ferries.repaired. By Scott North Herald Writer SEATTLE -- Questions about the best way to build new ferries have some people urging a fresh look at the state's oldest boats. Another push is on to determine whether any of the 81-year-old Steel Electric-class ferries can be brought out of retirement, repaired and pressed into service. Trying to bring back one of the boats could buy the state extra time to make sure it builds the right ferries to serve the state for decades, state Sen. Cheryl Pflug, R-Maple Valley, said Wednesday. She wrote state ferry chief David Moseley this week urging him to give rejuvenating a Steel Electric some thought. "There are a lot of people inside the (ferry) system who seem to think that is a possibility," Pflug said. Moseley, assistant state transportation secretary in charge of Washington State Ferries, said he is convinced that trying to resurrect a Steel Electric would be a poor option. "We need to move on now and build new boats," Moseley said. None of the Steel Electrics has ever met federal safety standards for watertight compartments, in effect since the 1950s. Until November they had operated with Coast Guard waivers. Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond tied up the vessels Nov. 20 after close inspection of the Quinault found extensive corrosion in the hull. The state initially thought repairs could be made in hopes of squeezing out a few more years of service. Work was stopped in mid-December, however, after engineers determined nearly half of the Quinault's hull plating was so rusted it needed to be replaced at a cost of $8 million. While the Quinault was "certainly in dire circumstances," the status of the remaining Steel Electrics -- the Illahee, the Klickitat and the Nisqually -- was not determined, Lt. Cmdr. Todd Howard, chief of vessel inspections for the Coast Guard in Seattle, said last week. If inspection found less than 25 percent of the hull steel on those vessels in need of replacement, it is possible the ferries could be returned to service without major modifications, Howard said. "We could actually look at that," he said. "There are options for us in that area." Barbara Blowers, a Port Townsend real estate agent, said her community has suffered since the Steel Electrics were sidelined. She said she was angry to learn that state officials chose not to push to repair the old boats. The state spent close to $1 million prepping the Illahee for the same close inspection that led to discovery of the Quinault's problems, but stopped when engineers estimated repairs to that ferry could cost more than $5 million. No repairs were attempted on the Klickitat or the Nisqually. Moseley said that was a prudent use of state funds. "There is no reason to believe they were in better shape than the Quinault," he said. State lawmakers, told of the repair challenges, passed legislation ordering the ferry system by June 1 to "sell, be in the process of selling, or otherwise dispose of" the aging vessels. Mosely said he is focused on building new ferries to replace the Steel Electrics. He hopes to seek bids by August or September for constructing new Island Home-style ferries, a design that is capable of carrying up to 80 cars. Pflug said she is concerned that the state is moving too quickly to embrace the Island Home-style boats and not asking hard questions about design modifications being sought by the ferry system. Reporter Scott North: 425-339-3431 or north@heraldnet.com.
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Post by Barnacle on May 30, 2008 13:01:54 GMT -8
And Cheryl Pflug was the same person who was leaning on the state to get on with it and build the Island Home boats about, oh, a month ago?
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Post by EGfleet on May 30, 2008 14:14:35 GMT -8
Deputy Director Mosely's newsletter just came out. Here's the plan for the disposal of the Steel Electrics:
Steel Electric Class Vessels We are in the process of disposing of the four decommissioned Steel Electric class vessels. This week we submitted an update to the Legislature. The next step in this process is to advertise the vessels for sale to state agencies, local entities and non-profit organizations beginning on Monday, June 2. After that, if they don’t sell, we will post them on EBay.
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