|
Post by Guest on Feb 26, 2008 12:39:06 GMT -8
Kerryssi - have the Gulf Island routes been put up for sale ? When was this? I haven't read anything about it
Hahn asked them to pay for there new docks. He said there wasn't any money to fix them.
So if I understand it - the smaller route make money - so why not spend it on there docks? The main route doesn't - so no money to fix replace the docks on all the group routes.
How can they run the business this way?
Sorry to not believe you, just a funny way to do buisness or be in business. Why won't the Managers listen to the employees? If they are right?
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Feb 26, 2008 14:16:19 GMT -8
The figures I got were from the Company. Which figures? Audited figures? The ones filed in the annual reports, with SEDAR? kerryssi, I don't want to be confrontational, and I value the input of people who've worked for BC Ferries, but you've made some rather contentious statements; some of which might be true, a number of which you haven't backed up, and some which are demonstrably not true. For instance, you've told us that the Crofton- Vesuvius run is profitable, and that in August it runs full nearly every run. That is simply not the case. Traffic on most routes has not changed significantly in five years, and as of '02 that route was running at 42% in August, and below 30% in winter. If BC Ferries is making money on their smaller routes, then they are almost unique among ferry operators in North America and Europe, where subsidization of smaller routes is the norm. Their financial statements list administrative, maintenance and operational costs separately- if you can give us some valid, verifiable information that massive administrative costs are being disproportionately loaded onto certain routes to lessen their viability, it would be helpful. I've got every reason to agree about the 'minor' routes being unfairly targeted, having seen my costs for getting to Hornby skyrocket, but unsupported, or perhaps unsound, cost analyses don't do us much good. Like Cascade, I'm also wondering when they put the southern Gulf Islands routes up for 'sale'. And as for that odd Long Harbour - Swartz Bay story, it's actually 14 miles distance, not 10; you would indeed be looking at about an hour for the ' Nanaimo. Kyle- Thank you for advancing the conversation in your usual inimitable style. Surprisingly, some 'armchair captains' are capable of reading maps and schedules, and they sometimes like their rhetoric flavored with a decent helping of verification. Sorry about that.
|
|
|
Post by kylefossett on Feb 26, 2008 16:48:57 GMT -8
Vesuvius- Crofton may not run at capacity during the week in the summer but it is certainly better then 42% capacity. On weekends in summer it is definatley full. now you may ask where i get my info from? I get it from watching it most days from my vantage point at vesuvius bay on my deck
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Feb 26, 2008 17:06:29 GMT -8
Well, I guess there's no arguing with that. You're obviously counting the cars and doing the math on every sailing, and since we all know that BC Ferries lies about everything, they're certainly lying about the amount of traffic they're carrying. Traffic stats certainly can't compete with a guy on his sundeck.
|
|
|
Post by kylefossett on Feb 26, 2008 17:24:11 GMT -8
Well, I guess there's no arguing with that. You're obviously counting the cars and doing the math on every sailing, and since we all know that BC Ferries lies about everything, they're certainly lying about the amount of traffic they're carrying. Traffic stats certainly can't compete with a guy on his sundeck. pretty easy to eyeball an open car deck and tell if it is full, half-full, or empty. then when you walk past the lot or look over at the lot and see cars left behind and the lineup heading out of the lot before the sailing.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Feb 27, 2008 12:58:54 GMT -8
If reality was defined by what people "eyeball", then the sasquatch would be officially Canada's tallest primate, and we would be worrying about the effects of climate change on Ogopogo. If we're talking about the profitability of a route, and we ignore figures verified over a number of years in favour of what someone sees from their sundeck, there's probably not a lot of point to the discussion.
|
|
|
Post by kerryssi on Feb 27, 2008 16:53:56 GMT -8
RE Ves/Croft run. The figures I used were put out by BCFC management and distributed to us and the public. That was several years ago now. At that time the figures from BCFC showed that the run was making a profit. The traffic has increased since then. The commercial traffic has increased so much that they have had to start the runs earlier because of overloads on the early runs. Increased traffic equals increased profit. The ship uses very little fuel and the wages have barely increased. Management overhead has increased considerably. The formula for determining the overhead costed to each route is , as explained by BCFC management, The number of passengers carried in the month of august times the number of runs made in a day times the distance of the run. The Ful/Croft ferry will have several overloads per day in august and makes several trips per day. The overhead charged to it is out of proportion with its cost. A run such as the mid coast express carries few passengers and only travels twice a week. There is relatively little overhead charged to it so on paper it looks much better. The management overhead is what is killing the company and should be properly assessed where it is generated, to management. Ever wonder why the Tsa/Swb/Ful through fare is the only one in the entire fleet? It has nothing to do with capacity. Ever hear about "the big lie" Hitler used it very effectively. Find something/someone to blame then keep repeating that they are the problem and people start to believe it. I really could care less if anyone believes me or not, if you wish to continue to believe the world is flat, Enron was a benevolent society, or whatever it does not matter to me. I am just putting the info out there. I have a copy of Sam Bawlf's report as well as 6 boxes of information on the ferries, not what they feed the gullible public. Every route on the ferries is up for sale. The Coastal Ferries Act put them up for sale. So far there are no takers. Read the coastal ferries act, it will scare you. Keep an eye on the Save our Ferries site. There is more info coming soon. p.s. When I tried to google this site it was no longer there. Is this just a momentary aberration? p.p.s Just F.Y.I I actually have eyeballed Caddy. I know I should not post that here but, like I said, I don't care if you believe or not.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Feb 27, 2008 20:00:20 GMT -8
Tsa/Swb/Ful is not the only through fare in the whole system. You can get a throughfare to any of the 5 Southern Gulf Islands from Tsawwassen - I've done it before. And I'm sure there are more reasons to have it than to make a particular route look unprofitable. For one it eases demand on the Queen of Nanaimo and offers more flexibility in when you want to arrive or leave.
You raise an interesting issue about all the profits going to the main route and none to the minor route. Do you really think there is enough traffic doing throughfares to make Route 4 unprofitable. BC Ferries report to the commissioner last year put losses on the route at just under $5 million before the subsidies were added which pushed it into "profitability".
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Feb 27, 2008 20:16:30 GMT -8
kerryssi: Sheesh. If I'd known that mentioning sasquatches and Ogopogo was going to bring Hitler, Enron, and 'flat earth' into a discussion on the Vesuvius ferry, I never would have done it... A few points: -If you have some information that contradicts BC Ferries' traffic statistics for the run, it would be helpful. I can give you anecdotal accounts of regular overloads on the Hornby ferry as well, but that doesn't change the fact that over the course of a whole month, taking into account sailings in both directions, the figures probably are what they say they are. -I'm looking forward to the input that you suggest is coming up on the 'Save our Ferries' site regarding offloading of administrative overhead onto specific routes. So far the somewhat rhetorical explanation hasn't exactly clarified anything. - By 'Mid Coast Express' I assume you actually mean the Discovery Coast route (route 40)? That route does not "look much better... on paper". It recovers less of it's costs than the Vesuvius route; it's one of the real financial sinkholes in the system. There's been no attempt to paper over it's costs, that I'm aware of. -I've read the Coastal Ferries Act from beginning to end. Can't say I found it that scary; at least not compared to Hitler or Enron. It does mandate a ferry system based purely on a business model, without regard to community wellbeing, so in that regard it's pretty much what you would expect from a right wing government. During specific time frames, routes have to be put up for tender, but it's simply not true to say that all BC Ferries routes are up 'for sale'. Very few have been put out for expressions of interest so far. -I won't bite on the 'Caddy' sighting. That might bring Mussolini and Richard Nixon into the discussion. kerryssi, you and I would probably agree on far more political and corporate type issues than we would disagree on. Sorry I riled you by questioning your take on things, but I think it's healthy to challenge statements that seem based too much on rhetoric or anecdote, and that's what I've done.
|
|
|
Post by WettCoast on Feb 27, 2008 20:31:40 GMT -8
'Mid Coast Express' operated by the Queen of Chilliwack. Imagine, that ferry being connected with the word express!
This puts me in mind of the former cross Newfoundland passenger train service that was dubbed the Newfie Bullet. Another train would be the Rupert Rocket, Via #'s 5 & 6.
|
|
|
Post by Hardy on Feb 27, 2008 22:41:55 GMT -8
Quick note regarding "eyeballing" ferries and ridership data. The two can be quite different but both be right, depending on a few circumstances and quality of the data. First thing to ask is how BCFS is getting it's ridership numbers. Are they including just FARE PAID vehicles and pax in their numbers, or is it total numbers LOADED? These can be two very different animals. Second thing is (and this again is the quality of the data) what are you basing your percentages on? Lets say for example you tell me that Rte-30 is operating at 85% capacity. Is that 85% of Alberni plus New West, or is that 85% of Coq plus Esquimalt Large difference. Percentage of what too? Cars? Commercial space? or just AEQs? Lots of things can skew data. I will leave MISREPORTING alone, although I am also not going to claim that it DOESN'T happen.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Feb 27, 2008 22:52:12 GMT -8
The vehicle load figures BC Ferries uses are based on AEQs, a standard measure on all vessels and runs.
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 28, 2008 8:00:03 GMT -8
The computers would know in a real time basis how many vehicles, extra passengers, foot passengers, and approximate length of every vehicle on every ferry.
|
|
|
Post by kerryssi on Feb 28, 2008 8:51:43 GMT -8
I shall try not to be too expressive. Mainly I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just putting out information that I had access to that the general public does not. An AEQ is 20 feet so figure a car every 20 ft. The HSQ was classed as an 80 car ferry. The most you could ever actually get on it was 60 to 65 assuming no trucks, campers etc. By BCFC statistics the ship never ran full since it never carried 80 cars. By eyeballing it you could clearly see it was at capacity. It took many years but we finally got it re classified as a 65 car ferry. They measured the deck and the available space. If you follow all the safety regs you will be unlikely to get more than 60 cars on it. If there are trucks or campers you will not get 60 on it. On the AM runs the commercial traffic grew to the point where it would sail with lots of deck space available but it had reached its load lines so cars were left behind. Statistically it was not full, eyeballing it you could see it was at capacity. There are several dangerous goods runs per week. Only trucks such as gasoline tankers are allowed on. No cars or foot passengers. Statistically it is less than half full, eyeballing it you can see you don't want anyone else on it. As has been said elsewhere, there are three kinds of lies Lies Damn lies and Statistics.
For example, for those who like fancy reports put out by management the Southern Gulf Islands Phase II report is a good example of why I do not trust them. In it they state that the average wage for an employee in the SGI is $ 50,000.00/yr plus benefits. I stood up at the next transportation meeting and held up $ 100.00 and my T4 slip and dared any of the managers there to bet on what my T4 said I earned. There were no takers. After extensive questioning they admitted they got that figure by taking the wages for the captain and chief engineer on the super ferry, the two highest paid employees on board ship, and adding them to the officers wages in the SGI and averaging them out. They claimed that because the super ferries passed through the gulf islands they could be counted. I know it does not make sense but that is what they did. This is not unsubstantiated, I was there doing the arguing with them. I had a copy of the report. My wages were slightly above average and my T4 showed that I made $ 30,000.00 and change. A long way from the companies "statistics". As for computers showing you what the load is, that is a laugh. As you know the rte 9 traffic goes to four ports, therefore it is vital that the crew get an accurate traffic count and description. We would contact Tsa terminal for the traffic count and they would give it to us off the computer. It was always wrong, by about 20% under and frequently left out such items as semis, motor homes etc. We would go up to the parking lot and do our own count.
|
|
|
Post by kerryssi on Feb 28, 2008 9:01:54 GMT -8
If it would help I could post the ships I have worked on, the jobs I had done and the committies I have been on.
|
|
D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
|
Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 28, 2008 10:06:08 GMT -8
If it would help I could post the ships I have worked on, the jobs I had done and the committies I have been on. The wording you use seems to imply you don't feel comfortable releasing this info. Are you concerned there might be repercussions for you if you do this, or did I misunderstand, and you mean you should let us know which ships you have been part of the crew on so we get a better feel for your experience?
|
|
|
Post by kerryssi on Feb 28, 2008 15:04:12 GMT -8
There are many Doubting Thomases out there, and rightly so. I made the offer so that people might understand that what I post is not from " so and so told me" or " I heard" but rather from my being on the spot and personaly involved. They are my personal experiences. Being retired I realy don't care if I am believed or not, but I think the public should know some of what goes on.
|
|
|
Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 28, 2008 16:40:47 GMT -8
Kerryssi as I am sure you know, the net is free, is widespread, and anybody can say anything at anytime with relative impunity. As I have said on another thread that wide spread freedom is starting to be offset with "if you say it you better stand by it." Normal rules of liability and responsibility for what you say have not been applied to the net much yet. However that is starting to change. Of course people will scream that it is censorship and all sorts of things. People have been saying horrible things about a whole range of people without any care for what that does to a persons reputation and/or personhood. The pendulum will have to swing. Should there be censorship of the net like in China? - absolutely not. Should anybody be able to spread lies about someone - absolutely not.
People that believe things they read on the net without constantly questioning and demanding backup are gullible and will likely be sold a bill of goods eventually, will get the worst virus they have ever experienced or will lose money in some scheme or other. I say all this just to set the scene.
It is not personal. Just because you are a retired BC Ferries employee doesn't mean what you say is right or wrong. We have just recently met you on this forum. How are we to judge some of your statements without any kind of backup? Give us some time to get to know you. You could be the most reliable person on this whole forum. On the other hand you could have a vendetta against BC Ferries and that influence your statements. How are we to know? Only time will tell.
If people met you at a forum gathering at an open house or you joined in one of the forum trips etc. then at least those people would have a context to judge. Not many or any of our long standing posters have a relationship with you yet. The likelyhood is that only a minority of forum members will meet and get to know one another outside of the forum.
So don't be offended if you make a controversial or surprising statement and someone asks for backup. Again don't take it personally. You should be doing the same things back to us if we say something that doesn't jive with reality. If done right it no offense should be taken on anyones part. On the other hand please don't demean our opinions just because we haven't worked for BC Ferries.
I joined this site because the ferries are an important part of my childhood and to this day hold a very special place for me. I am glad more employees are joining, and I hope many more do. I would hope some of management felt free to join as well. I hope this forum doesn't turn into just a b!tch site for any one viewpoint. We should be able to disagree without rancour. And I hope it keeps as pleasant as it has been despite casting a much wider net. Some of the forums I have joined I have left when it no longer becomes a way of enjoying something I share a passion for. Our moderators have done a great job here.
All just my opinion, I don't speak for the whole forum just myself. I for one welcome you here Kerryssi and look forward to hearing things we have never heard before and some of the behind the scene stories and antidotes from you.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Feb 28, 2008 17:50:02 GMT -8
Thank you, pnwtraveller, for the very good points you have just made; I wholeheartedly share you sentiments.
Kerryssi, I'm quite interested in hearing your opinions and experiences; I'm sure we'd be very surprised at some of the things that go on behind the scenes at BC Ferries.
|
|
|
Post by kerryssi on Feb 29, 2008 8:48:52 GMT -8
pnwtraveller.....very good points and I agree. There has been no offence taken on my part. I have spent years doing battle with BCFC over inane policies and absurd decisions. I know the value of documentation. What many people do not seem to understand is that there is no free press in B.C.s major media. What everyone reads and sees is heavily censored before being put out to the public. It is the disadvantage of having one person own Canwest which owns the major media in B.C. What he wants out gets out, what he doesn't want out doesn't. It makes it very difficult to get any information out to the general public except via localy owned media which are not wide spread. I have had personal experience with this. Do not forget the media is in the business of selling advertizing space, sensationalism sells, facts are usually boring.
|
|
D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
Posts: 1,671
|
Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 29, 2008 9:49:33 GMT -8
Do not forget the media is in the business of selling advertizing space, sensationalism sells, facts are usually boring. LOL...given the business pnwtraveler is in, I think he is quite aware of what the media business is about ;D, as are many of the other members of our forum. Maybe this is why we see so much skepticism and are quick to see conspiracy. I, too, welcome all the different points of view though I don't always agree with them. Part of being human! Winning people over to our own point of view is often the goal of a conversation. We all work to our own conclusions given the information we have at hand; sometimes we stubbornly hold on steadfastly to a conviction, even if we are presented with contradictory evidence. Never me, of course! I think most of the "doubting Thomases" out there are just looking for confirmation from multiple sources, like any good fact checker should. Keep the information coming, and any hard backup you can.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,177
|
Post by Neil on Feb 29, 2008 11:29:04 GMT -8
A lot of us get information about BC Ferries from sources other than the big corporate media. We may have (or have had) friends or relatives who work for the company, and we may use the ferries fairly extensively, and have some knowledge of the communities the ferries serve. The annual reports, Coastal Ferry Services Contract, Act, and other documents are also available to the public. One can challenge those documents, and the figures in them, the natural assumption being that the person doing the challenging has evidence to the contrary.
I have some minor association with Canwest and it's predecessor, going back to 1974, so I have no illusions about the nature of the 'news' world they inhabit.
It would be difficult to make the case that BC Ferries has had a particularly soft ride from the Canwest empire of late. Since the Queen of The North sinking, there has been a steady stream of articles about ship maintenance, accidents major and minor, and company attitudes toward safety and customer service. The Province ran a minor series of muckraking articles a year or so ago, and recently, the Province editorial board actually called for more provincial control over BC Ferries' policy, in light of never ending fare hikes and other issues. Granted, the papers were onside about the necessity to export half a billion dollars in shipbuilding to Germany (not counting the NorEx), and have provided cheerleading accounts of the 'Renaissance's arrival here, but overall, the company's press has not been exactly what they would like it to be. If we're looking for examples of a 'big lie', far better to look at the media's treatment of the oil industry, which continues to drain consumers' pockets with their astounding record profits, while the media feeds us swill about difficult international production conditions. But I digress.
On the Howe Sound Queen- I've never seen it's vehicle capacity listed as 80, at least not for public consumption. The figures from the CF Services Contract that refered to average load, I assume, were using the figure stated in that section, which was 70 AEQ. The six dangerous cargo sailings per week, out of a total of 170 or so, wouldn't significantly alter their stated figures.
Very surprised to read that a long time deckhand with BC Ferries would be making $30,000 a year. Based on a 37.5 hour week, that's about $15 an hour. Did I read that wrong, or was that a figure from some time ago?
|
|
|
Post by kerryssi on Feb 29, 2008 20:46:31 GMT -8
That figure was from some time ago, the time when the company published the report that we were making $ 50,000.00 per year plus benefits. When I retired it was $36,000.00 and change. The HSQ was listed as 70 AEQs then due to increased traffic they needed a larger ferry so it was re classified as an 80 car ferry for a short time (Ross Harris strikes again). It could carry neither 70 nor 80 cars. That skewed the statistics. The company showed up at one meeting and claimed there was traffic on the last sailing only 1% of the time. Having worked that run for years I knew that it was rare that there were no cars on the last sailing. No cars on the sailing would be about 1% Don't forget to add in the almost daily sailing where a lot of cars were left behind when the commercial traffic loaded the ship to its load lines. The moving of the first sailing earlier has helped with that problem but when there is paving or construction going on the first two sailings can be overloaded with 6 gravel or paving trucks and a dozen cars leaving a lot of empty deck space and a lot of cars behind. As I said it has now been re classed close to its true carying capasity. We used to get a lot of people telling us we made $40.00 or $50.00/per hr. Sadly it was never that and is still not. A lot of bumpf put out by the company was designed to alienate the employees to the public so as to bring public pressure against the employees. As one CEO put it, he had never seen a company that hated its employees like BCFC.
|
|
|
Post by Political Incorrectness on Mar 14, 2008 22:48:22 GMT -8
I was looking back on last year's crazy Summer in the Ferries Busy thread. I noticed a few things especially with Route 2: Tuesday and Wednesday sailings are needed Early sailings on Friday and Sunday will not fill like later sailings Thursday and Monday need 4 extra round trips With that, and the fact two Coastals will be in service this summer, I decided it might be a good idea to modify the route 2 schedule and make it a bit simple. Leave Horseshoe Bay | Leave Departure Bay | 6:20 am | 6:20 am | 8:30 am | 8:30 am | 10:40 am | 9:00 am* | 11:10 am* | 10:40 am | 12:55 pm | 12:00 pm** | 2:10 pm** | 12:55 pm | 3:10 pm | 1:20 pm* | 3:40 pm* | 3:10 pm | 5:20 pm | 4:20 pm** | 6:30 pm** | 5:20 pm | 7:30 pm | 6:00 pm* Fri and Sun only | 8:10 pm*Fri and Sun only | 7:30 pm | 9:35 pm | 9:35 pm |
* third vessel runs sailings daily except noted ** fourth vessel runs sailings Thursday, Friday, Sunday, and Monday only How does this look in comparison to the summer schedule pre-established on the BCFS website?
|
|
Quatchi
Voyager
Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
|
Post by Quatchi on Mar 15, 2008 12:21:18 GMT -8
Where are you getting this fourth vessel from?
|
|