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Post by herrbrinkmann on Feb 19, 2009 23:38:32 GMT -8
Thanks Dane for that very informative ship tour and report.
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Post by Scott on Feb 19, 2009 23:44:35 GMT -8
Thanks for the review and photos, Dane. You had some nice weather! Good luck on the exam.
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Post by Curtis on Feb 20, 2009 0:04:40 GMT -8
At least somebody got out on Day 1. Nice photos and a very informative review, Dane. Can't wait to get out there and see it for myself.
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Post by ferryfanyvr on Feb 20, 2009 10:30:09 GMT -8
To echo the above comments, "Well done!"...one question though...I would like to take a day trip to check out the Island Sky...what's the parking situation at Earls cove?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 20, 2009 11:28:13 GMT -8
I wonder if Ms. Linda Coomber will offer her creative-services to other businesses and to the arts community? Or has she peaked with "Island Sky"? =============== Or is "named by" the phrase that means "the dignitary who tossed the champagne bottle against the hull"? |
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Post by Nickfro on Feb 20, 2009 11:38:37 GMT -8
one question though...I would like to take a day trip to check out the Island Sky...what's the parking situation at Earls cove? I'm pretty sure you just park on the side of the road or in a little lot adjacent to the terminal for free. However, someone with a little more experience surely can confirm that. |
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Quatchi
Voyager 
Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
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Post by Quatchi on Feb 20, 2009 12:49:21 GMT -8
You drive along the highway come to the terminal take the truck lane and go to the end around the trucks. You park 10 feet from the loading ramp for free.
Cheers,
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Post by ferryfanyvr on Feb 20, 2009 13:42:43 GMT -8
sounds great, thanks for the info! Too bad the weather forcast for that day isn't too good.
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Post by Dane on Feb 20, 2009 15:47:04 GMT -8
If you walk fast you can often even leave the terminal before most of the vehicles on the car deck!
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Post by Dane on Feb 20, 2009 16:03:01 GMT -8
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,307
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Post by Neil on Feb 20, 2009 23:26:47 GMT -8
Face facts. In regards to ferry construction coming from FSG, we have been spoiled, and anyone who has visted FSG's website has been spoiled. And you know what? FSG knows it. Why? Because they can sell their efficiency and ways and means by placing the progress of their work orders out there for anyone to see. Now granted Vancouver Shipyards could show alot of improvement in their PR department especially with this new ferry. FSG gets an A + for that department, followed with a C+ to B for Todd Shipyards in Seattle for their work, but they too could show improvements. We'll see when they start the Island Home type ferry project in a few months. Given the incessant crying over ships not being built here, I wonder why Vcr Shipyard and others didn't seize the opportunity to showcase what local yards could accomplish. In regards to that part of the project, Vcr Shipyards failed miserably to the point they should undertake a remedial course in my mind. They missed a good opportunity to sell their potential. Why assume that the local yards aren't selling their potential? Maybe we let ourselves get too impressed by flashy websites with lots of pictures. What impresses the fans doesn't necessarily fill the order books. Victoria Shipyard was pretty much full last year; I believe their Vancouver counterpart did quite well also. Cruise lines and other customers book jobs based on competitive prices or quality workmanship, and if the yards have a good standing in the industry based on the work they do, that counts for a lot more than some sort of public relations image based on how they trumpet their achievements to the public. If the local yards want any newbuild contracts from BC Ferries, they'll submit bids, and if their package, and track record, best satisfies the bid criteria, they'll get the contract, assuming of course that the fix isn't in to send the contract overseas. All the p.r. bumpf in the world won't make a jot of difference. |
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,887 
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 20, 2009 23:43:52 GMT -8
Given the incessant crying over ships not being built here, I wonder why Vcr Shipyard and others didn't seize the opportunity to showcase what local yards could accomplish. Perhaps they've been too overly stigmatized by various derisive voices that have denounced BC's shipbuilding industry as being not capable, so now they have come to believe it, and building the Island Sky could be perceived as adding insult to their injuries in terms of not getting the shipbuilding contracts that really matter. Somehow, I do like the appearance of the Island Sky in the photos... perhaps, when taking a picture of her in the water, you get a bit of a better angle to look down at it rather than straight through or across it on a level plane. However, this only holds true for views ranging from a full broadside to maybe directly off one of the vessel's four quarters. Looking directly head on (through the ferry's gullet as I've heard it described) just makes it look far too boxy (is it just me or is this one fat ferry) and emphasizes the grotesquely exaggerated height of the bridge structure as well as all the awkward looking holes between the level of the wheelhouse and the exhaust housings. As far as Dane's notice on the lack of touching up on interior finishing and such, I suppose this goes along with my comments regarding the quality of the builders plaques. As a whole, we seem to have all grown accustomed, it seems, to the poorer quality of quickly manufactured, prefabricated, low cost, low quality, even, decidedly inferior products that we all somehow feel we need to continue consuming in order to satisfy our perceived consumer demands, which dedicatedly efficient companies like Walmart seem only so eager to fill for us with a vast array of rollback fair products. In this case, maybe our own consumer mentality has come back to haunt us, and the poor finish on the Island Sky is really what we have all grown accustomed to, and come to tolerate, in terms of quality, so we might just have ended up with the quality of finish we deserve. I'm just not sure how healthy that reheated meal looks, especially for the price you paid for it, Dane. Perhaps it should come with a voucher for a free doctor's visit to double check your body functions are still working normally after eating the food. |
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,307
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Post by Neil on Feb 21, 2009 0:16:42 GMT -8
As far as Dane's notice on the lack of touching up on interior finishing and such, I suppose this goes along with my comments regarding the quality of the builders plaques. As a whole, we seem to have all grown accustomed, it seems, to the poorer quality of quickly manufactured, prefabricated, low cost, low quality, even, decidedly inferior products that we all somehow feel we need to continue consuming in order to satisfy our perceived consumer demands, which dedicatedly efficient companies like Walmart seem only so eager to fill for us with a vast array of rollback fair products. In this case, maybe our own consumer mentality has come back to haunt us, and the poor finish on the Island Sky is really what we have all grown accustomed to, and come to tolerate, in terms of quality, so we might just have ended up with the quality of finish we deserve. Substitute the name Queen of Vancouver for Island Sky in the paragraph above, and it applies just as well. At least the Island Sky has ceiling tiles that can rattle. Dane's list of negatives for this boat don't really add up to 'poor finish'. The Island Sky looks reasonably well designed, efficient, and comfortable. As for that plastic tub of K.D. for $6... that may become the modern day answer to 'sunshine breakfasts'. I've tried nuking K.D. before. They should be paying you $6 to eat it. |
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Post by Dane on Feb 21, 2009 0:47:31 GMT -8
Neil I disagree with your assessment about "poor finish." It indeed is poor
5. deficient or lacking in something specified: a region poor in mineral deposits.
in the finish
5. to complete and perfect in detail; put the final touches on (sometimes fol. by up): He decided to finish his plan more carefully. She finished up a painting.
in some areas. These areas are the minority, and perhaps it can be rectified with time in sercice as we saw with a few items on the Coastal class.
I would say the list I provided does amount to less than expected quality when you are purchasing a new vessel.... Even more so when they have longer to get the thing done. True, as Paul said, FSG has the space, resources, and knowledge to get things done more quickly, and arguably to a better quality given knowledge of past projects. But still, some of these things on the IS seem like they could, and should have been fixed by either Vancouver Shipyards or BC Ferries. A few of them only involve double sided tape (literally).
That said overall the IS is well put together, but if I bought a 2009 Toyota Yaris I wouldn't expect a door panel to rattle, but I have accepted it on my 1994 car. Similarly the shakes and rattles on the IS are reminiscent of the Capilano at times, but she's of the same age as my car. I realize the engineering dynamics of a new ship are ever so slightly different, however the point is still valid. Overall any vibration on the IS is in the minor leagues of the minor leagues compared to the Queen of Tsawwassen backing out of a terminal in the Cafeteria area! You literally had to hold there.
The Island Sky certainly isn't a lemon, but given that I see myself as edging on the more "positive" side of reviewing new vessels I think the overall reaction of the general membership may be more negative considering the Coastal class, which in a majority of way are objectively the best vessels in the fleet - were torn apart.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2009 6:18:33 GMT -8
One thing that may have been forgotten in the rush to congratulate offshore builders is that the "Queen of Alberni" was built in the same shipyard that the Island Sky was. Not a bad accomplishment for the locals.
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Post by landlubber on Feb 21, 2009 6:23:38 GMT -8
Comparing a "one-time build" passenger ferry to a mass-production automobile is a bit unfair I think. The very first pre-production Yaris probably had an awful lot wrong with it's fit & finish.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 21, 2009 10:30:15 GMT -8
I disagree with your statement regarding flashy websites with pictures and public relations PR having no impact on either policy or the order book. My guess is that WMG and perhaps a few others took a look at the delivery and performance guarantees and clauses that FSG was entirely comfortable with said oops we can't guarantee those things and therefore never went further with an actual bid. I am not blaming them in saying that but perhaps they had more smarts and business accumen then some give them credit for. If as said above the shipyards are doing a nice business and are profitable, then why take on business that is going to be a stretch for you given the labour shortages and other factors at play? The union took a large swipe at their newsconference, when the CR was delivered and did her spin in the Vancouver harbour. What was that for if there isn't a benefit in some PR? However, the public has a very long memory of some things once they are ingrained whether accurate or not. I believe the FastCat fiasco is very clearly remembered. We can slice and dice who was responsible but the public has a distaste for the area and whether rational or not has to be dealt with. They may blame the government rationally but the industry is tarred irrationally at the same time. Assuming the shipyards are capable of delivering (granted a huge assumption given the labour climate) lets look at two possible impacts of a strong PR campaign. Firstly, labour and recruitment. If shipbuilding/refit in the marine industry was more visible to young people, their successes "trumpeted" better, and the industry looked better than the current slowly dying impression the general public probably has, then it is likely more of these young people would look at the industry as a secure and safe place to build a career. Why go into an industry that looks like a dead end then one like construction that looks more secure? Who spends their lives on the net? Young people. Who also would look at webcams and marine construction and be inspired to say - that looks cool. Secondly, public opinion has a major impact on events. People assume it doesn't and do nothing or do a crappy job. A strong PR campaign that accomplishes the above same things, giving the public the idea that the industry isn't dead, has a profound impact on local lives, and has huge economic spin off for the province, would help change public opinion. There wasn't a bigger backlash about the FSG order because the public obviously doesn't think it mattered that much. Had the industry been very strong in PR in developing public opinion, then perhaps with all this infrastructure buzz and investment taking place, they could have benefited from some. Now is too late to do that. Lets face it the government is going to put money where they think it will work. Don't underestimate also the self serving element where the government will be doing things that are popular. Until the Marine Industry (including unions) transition from complaining to actually getting out in front of issues and influencing public and government opinion, the status quo isn't going to change, I strongly believe the BC industry will increasingly be a good refit and repair and small vessel construction choice. Unless the industry (including unions) smartens up the day of big builds are over. It is too easy and cheap to always blame government while some clearly are sitting doing nothing. |
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 21, 2009 10:37:40 GMT -8
Comparing a "one-time build" passenger ferry to a mass-production automobile is a bit unfair I think. The very first pre-production Yaris probably had an awful lot wrong with it's fit & finish. I am using a second post because the above one was too long winded already. I agree comparing to a mass produced automobile is unfair. However, the quality of the build of the Coastals has definitely set a standard. We on the forum may notice the difference and it is interesting to compare. The general public's impression matters more. Quality of welds is the most obvious if the ridges on the outside decks are obvious and general cosmetic finish will be noticed. But the details beyond that won't unless there are service problems and people start looking closer and develop the opinion that the ferry is a lemon. |
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,887
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 21, 2009 11:22:12 GMT -8
It's actually quite fair to compare the ship to a mass produced item because, even if the ship, structurally is a single model, all the other components used to fit it out, especially all the interior finishings are most definitely mass-produced components. But even then, FSG may have used a lot of the same products, so it comes down to the question is it inferior product or poor quality finish, or just poor installation? Sure, the Island Sky took a long time to complete, but they probably contracted out the work on the ceilings, carpets, laying the lino and stuff, and then told the installers, we're not giving you one extra minute to do the work, so rush, rush. rush. And... haste makes waste.
I think the biggest operational concern will ultimately be the gallery decks, particularly starboard side at the number two end, where they had the sheer lunacy to cater to the whims of those Bowen Islanders with that foot passenger boarding platform. It seems to me the ramp on that end gets particularly narrow. Didn't somebody notice it on the drawings and ask, "Are they insane?". Maybe they're just over managed but this seems to stick out as proof positive of some discrepancy in the thought process somewhere. I wonder if those gallery decks are going to end up being a string of ICBC claims for broken mirrors and scratched fenders like the QPR's cardeck.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 21, 2009 12:03:53 GMT -8
Powell River Peak news story: www.prpeak.com/articles/2009/02/20/news/doc499b81c17f5c4189394814.txt(note: this is the same story that member sunshinecoastkid posted in reply #843 on the new-ship page thread for I'Sky. But this new updated link has the cool video, and also the following reader comments) Here are 2 reader-comments from the Peak page, that you might find interesting: ------------------------ Video link is below, for a 3-minute local video on the new ship: Includes: - Capt. Jamie Marshall speech - Ribbon cutting - Video tour including bridge, - Enya music - Gord Nettleton interview |
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Post by Dane on Feb 21, 2009 12:43:49 GMT -8
Comparing a "one-time build" passenger ferry to a mass-production automobile is a bit unfair I think. The very first pre-production Yaris probably had an awful lot wrong with it's fit & finish. I think my post addressed the fact it was not intended to be a technical comparison, rather a philosophical one. Upon rereading it I still believe this is clear. If I could afford to pay $35 million for something, and it's delivered to me 10 months late, I would want token issues corrected. Having no idea the mechanics of the ship, I have no idea how that works. I did just notice now that the net tonnage is about 700 higher than the estimate on the initial press release. That could speak to issues - or it could have been erroneous on the part of the initial press release. Who knows? (Other than BCF or WMG) But, just to say this for the third time on my part in this thread - the Island Sky is NOT a bad ship from the perspective of a passenger, it just isn't a Coastal in its fit & finish.  |
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,887
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 21, 2009 13:19:00 GMT -8
Powell River Peak news story: www.prpeak.com/articles/2009/02/20/news/doc499b81c17f5c4189394814.txt(note: this is the same story that member sunshinecoastkid posted in reply #843 on the new-ship page thread for I'Sky. But this new updated link has the cool video, and also the following reader comments) Here are 2 reader-comments from the Peak page, that you might find interesting: ------------------------ Video link is below, for a 3-minute local video on the new ship: Includes: - Capt. Jamie Marshall speech - Ribbon cutting - Video tour including bridge, - Enya music - Gord Nettleton interview Hmmmm... if it goes off the route again in the winter, where is it going to go then? To keep the Norad company at Deas all winter long. It seems the issue of frost and frozen vehicle decks is something we didn't discuss in picking apart the design for a new intermediate vessel. I guess we also never thought of route 7 as a northern run with such inclement winter weather. I don't necessarily think this is a major concern because, even though the decks are open from above, a large portion is actually covered, and the bulwarks on the Island Sky are quite high, which would deflect most wind coming across the cardeck. In addition, there are other ferries running on routes much farther north that have open cardecks or, at the very least, cardecks that aren't totally enclosed with full height deck structures all the way around and doors at the bow and stern, and we do not hear of persistent problems with frost on the decks. The Tenaka routinely takes waves over the bow in winter storms and, although ice does occasionally form on her decks and fixtures, it does not prevent vehicles from still being handled. Perhaps the gallery decks might be a concern in winter conditions however, but you could just not use them in frosty conditions, or at least not park cars on the ramp sections. But, the Capilano and Cumberland which have such similar superstructures and cardeck layouts, as well as a similar amount of cardeck space covered over by the superstructure also don't seem to have greatly reported issues with icy conditions on the cardeck. Perhaps, however, that's because they both operate on more sunny routes down south, and that's why it would be necessary to move the Island Sky to a different route in winter months... the only question being, where? Maybe they will kick the Cumberland off of route 5 next winter and stick her on the Bowen run, platform decks and all if they think they need more capacity, then give the Capilano to Texada Island since they think they need more capacity there, as well. |
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Post by Dane on Feb 21, 2009 13:20:42 GMT -8
How could freezing decks be an issue here, but not on the Kwuna, Quadra Queen II, Tachek?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 21, 2009 14:43:41 GMT -8
How could freezing decks be an issue here, but not on the Kwuna, Quadra Queen II, Tachek? The incline of the ramps of the gallery-decks. No other open-deck ferry has "Hills". |
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Post by Dane on Feb 21, 2009 14:44:55 GMT -8
But that's what the sandpaper like stuff is for.... they just need to keep it down a little better.
On the day of my trip there was ice on the highway, and the IS was fine.
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