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Post by 1foot2ships on Nov 22, 2023 18:37:05 GMT -8
the announcement was made td the EOI would expire 2024-12. when they said they were looking forward to partnering with bc shipyards, was that genuine, or just something to hide their preferences w/o pre-empting domestic bids?
what is with the reluctance to build more spirit boats? single-ended? everybody loves them too much? i vagely remember seeing something (here probably), the design specs werent owned by BCF. if thats the case, can they not simply pay more to obtain those rights?
legal guys: whats the problem with asking shipyards to build exact copies so long as you dont label them as authentic copies?
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 22, 2023 20:08:49 GMT -8
2029!
Before the first boat is in service? I really don't think that is good enough. They will have to limp along with what they have as the population and demand for service grows. I think maybe they should look to acquire something used to give them another major vessel to help with the existing capacity & reliability issues.
Also, they need eight new boats in my humble opinion (to bring the number of major vessels up to 13 from 11). For summer operation; five on route 1, three each on routes 2 & 30, and two on route 3.
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Post by Ollie on Nov 22, 2023 20:55:40 GMT -8
2029! Before the first boat is in service? I really don't think that is good enough. They will have to limp along with what they have as the population and demand for service grows. I think maybe they should look to acquire something used to give them another major vessel to help with the existing capacity & reliability issues.
Also, they need eight new boats in my humble opinion (to bring the number of major vessels up to 13 from 11). For summer operation; five on route 1, three each on routes 2 & 30, and two on route 3.
I think the existing ferries are good enough to easily last until past 2029, but getting another old used ferry is a good idea.
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Post by Kahloke on Nov 22, 2023 20:56:09 GMT -8
2029!
Before the first boat is in service? I really don't think that is good enough. They will have to limp along with what they have as the population and demand for service grows. I think maybe they should look to acquire something used to give them another major vessel to help with the existing capacity & reliability issues.
Also, they need eight new boats in my humble opinion (to bring the number of major vessels up to 13 from 11). For summer operation; five on route 1, three each on routes 2 & 30, and two on route 3.
That's looking a lot like WSF's situation. I will be surprised if WSF sees a new boat before 2030, and they're worse off than BC Ferries where vessels are concerned.
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Post by Kahloke on Nov 22, 2023 21:01:14 GMT -8
I think the existing ferries are good enough to last until past 2029, but getting another old used ferry is a good idea. I would disagree with you on that one. Any time BC Ferries has purchased a used vessel in recent years, it has not gone well for them, and they've ended up spending a ton of money to bring them up to a serviceable condition. Northern Adventure and Northern Sea Wolf come to mind. For that matter, they probably would have been money ahead in building a 4th Coastal back in 2008 rather than refurbishing Queen of New Westminster. If I remember correctly, the cost overruns on that refit were astronomical.
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Post by Ollie on Nov 22, 2023 21:06:36 GMT -8
I think the existing ferries are good enough to last until past 2029, but getting another old used ferry is a good idea. I would disagree with you on that one. Any time BC Ferries has purchased a used vessel in recent years, it has not gone well for them, and they've ended up spending a ton of money to bring them up to a serviceable condition. Northern Adventure and Northern Sea Wolf come to mind. For that matter, they probably would have been money ahead in building a 4th Coastal back in 2008 rather than refurbishing Queen of New Westminster. If I remember correctly, the cost overruns on that refit were astronomical. The other newly built BC Ferries seem just as unreliable, like the Salish Class and the Coastals. But I’ve never been on any of the used vessels.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Nov 23, 2023 0:43:55 GMT -8
I would disagree with you on that one. Any time BC Ferries has purchased a used vessel in recent years, it has not gone well for them, and they've ended up spending a ton of money to bring them up to a serviceable condition. Northern Adventure and Northern Sea Wolf come to mind. For that matter, they probably would have been money ahead in building a 4th Coastal back in 2008 rather than refurbishing Queen of New Westminster. If I remember correctly, the cost overruns on that refit were astronomical. The other newly built BC Ferries seem just as unreliable, like the Salish Class and the Coastals. But I’ve never been on any of the used vessels. The Island and Salish Class vessels seem very reliable and I haven’t seen that many cancellations or vessels changes for breakdowns of those vessels.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Nov 23, 2023 0:45:41 GMT -8
I think the existing ferries are good enough to last until past 2029, but getting another old used ferry is a good idea. I would disagree with you on that one. Any time BC Ferries has purchased a used vessel in recent years, it has not gone well for them, and they've ended up spending a ton of money to bring them up to a serviceable condition. Northern Adventure and Northern Sea Wolf come to mind. For that matter, they probably would have been money ahead in building a 4th Coastal back in 2008 rather than refurbishing Queen of New Westminster. If I remember correctly, the cost overruns on that refit were astronomical. I wonder if best choice was to build a fourth Coastal Class while upgrading the Queen of New Westminster to compensate for the non replacement for Queen of Victoria.
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Post by Ollie on Nov 23, 2023 0:58:48 GMT -8
The other newly built BC Ferries seem just as unreliable, like the Salish Class and the Coastals. But I’ve never been on any of the used vessels. The Island and Salish Class vessels seem very reliable and I haven’t seen that many cancellations or vessels changes for breakdowns of those vessels. They always have issues with the hydraulic systems and lots of smaller things, they might not break down completely very often but they are never fully functional.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Nov 23, 2023 1:17:01 GMT -8
The Island and Salish Class vessels seem very reliable and I haven’t seen that many cancellations or vessels changes for breakdowns of those vessels. They always have issues with the hydraulic systems and lots of smaller things, they might not break down completely very often but they are never fully functional. What do you mean by hydraulic systems?
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Post by Ollie on Nov 23, 2023 1:22:42 GMT -8
They always have issues with the hydraulic systems and lots of smaller things, they might not break down completely very often but they are never fully functional. What do you mean by hydraulic systems? The folding pieces on the vehicle deck, the big curved visors, and the blue passenger doors seem to have a lot of problems on the Salish Class.
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Post by gordon on Nov 23, 2023 13:17:01 GMT -8
What will the likely Vehicle capacity be for these new major route(Diesel Electric) ferries be? Pax capacity 2100
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 23, 2023 13:33:29 GMT -8
What will the likely Vehicle capacity be for these new major route(Diesel Electric) ferries be? Pax capacity 2100 My guess, 400 AEQ, or about the same as the Spirits. They need to be significantly larger in auto capacity than the vessels they replace.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Nov 23, 2023 13:51:42 GMT -8
What will the likely Vehicle capacity be for these new major route(Diesel Electric) ferries be? Pax capacity 2100 My guess, 400 AEQ, or about the same as the Spirits. They need to be significantly larger in auto capacity than the vessels they replace. I thought the upper vehicle deck will be convertible space for increase passenger capacity.
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Post by Curtis on Nov 23, 2023 14:06:52 GMT -8
My guess, 400 AEQ, or about the same as the Spirits. They need to be significantly larger in auto capacity than the vessels they replace. I thought the upper vehicle deck will be convertible space for increase passenger capacity. Something tells me we won’t see much follow-through on that plan. It’s pretty clear after last summer that vehicle capacity needs to rise, so I’d expect vehicle decks will remain solely vehicle decks for the foreseeable future.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Nov 23, 2023 14:09:32 GMT -8
I thought the upper vehicle deck will be convertible space for increase passenger capacity. Something tells me we won’t see much follow-through on that plan. It’s pretty clear after last summer that vehicle capacity needs to rise, so I’d expect vehicle decks will remain solely vehicle decks for the foreseeable future. True but future generations might start to see through car culture of Canada and America. I think future will be interesting to see what happens to fleet.
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Post by articulated on Nov 23, 2023 15:24:13 GMT -8
Something tells me we won’t see much follow-through on that plan. It’s pretty clear after last summer that vehicle capacity needs to rise, so I’d expect vehicle decks will remain solely vehicle decks for the foreseeable future. True but future generations might start to see through car culture of Canada and America. I think future will be interesting to see what happens to fleet. Change of that scale takes a very, very long time to accomplish. You are looking at trying to reverse multiple decades of planning and design - it will take at least that length of time to complete. Also, while the communities on Vancouver Island are generally pretty walkable (at least compared to many other places), the bits in between are not. So there will absolutely still need to be vehicle capacity for the foreseeable future.
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Post by pacificcat99 on Nov 23, 2023 21:45:07 GMT -8
Thanks for the article link. Interesting shift in strategy that the article appears to state BC Ferries is looking to go with a Diesel-Hybrid instead of LNG-Hybrid. It would be great if they could be built in BC using Canadian/North American Produced Steel (maybe with Algoma's new electric furnace [https://www.northernontariobusiness.com/industry-news/manufacturing/algoma-steels-electric-arc-furnace-project-taking-shape-7168748]). It would be great to keep the projects local but likely need major investments in BC Shipbuilding expansion to make this a possibility. This investment though may ultimately benefit the entire country as Canada is extremely short on naval and coast guard vessels. Hopefully we get more updates regarding design as the process for build bids continues to move forward.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 23, 2023 21:47:38 GMT -8
Something tells me we won’t see much follow-through on that plan. It’s pretty clear after last summer that vehicle capacity needs to rise, so I’d expect vehicle decks will remain solely vehicle decks for the foreseeable future. True but future generations might start to see through car culture of Canada and America. I think future will be interesting to see what happens to fleet. I think BBF that you may well be right about this, but it will probably take many years before a significant change in attitudes occur. Big cities are choking on vehicles. Does not matter if they are EV or ICE. At some point travel within major cities and between cities that are relatively close to one another will shift more to public transit. That is why I think the E&N corridor on Vancouver Island needs to be kept in tact. Trains & passenger focused ferry systems will make more & more sense.
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Post by pacificcat99 on Nov 23, 2023 21:51:31 GMT -8
Something tells me we won’t see much follow-through on that plan. It’s pretty clear after last summer that vehicle capacity needs to rise, so I’d expect vehicle decks will remain solely vehicle decks for the foreseeable future. True but future generations might start to see through car culture of Canada and America. I think future will be interesting to see what happens to fleet. Likely need significant rapid transit investments to start reducing vehicle traffic substantially. Hopefully one day we get an extension through Richmond through Delta and to Tsawwassen (and maybe direct trains from YVR and Downtown Vancouver) to the Tsawwassen Terminal. Also a Train Running from Downtown Victoria through the city and direct to Swartz Bay with stops in between. With the substantial demand moving forward maybe BC Ferries will look at exploring creating a new route again such as from the Airport to Nanaimo/Victoria to help ease demand on other routes.
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Post by paulvanb on Nov 23, 2023 21:54:20 GMT -8
Thanks for the article link. Interesting shift in strategy that the article appears to state BC Ferries is looking to go with a Diesel-Hybrid instead of LNG-Hybrid. It would be great if they could be built in BC using Canadian/North American Produced Steel (maybe with Algoma's new electric furnace [https://www.northernontariobusiness.com/industry-news/manufacturing/algoma-steels-electric-arc-furnace-project-taking-shape-7168748]). It would be great to keep the projects local but likely need major investments in BC Shipbuilding expansion to make this a possibility. This investment though may ultimately benefit the entire country as Canada is extremely short on naval and coast guard vessels. Hopefully we get more updates regarding design as the process for build bids continues to move forward. The only one who could do this, Seaspan, is chock full of work for the foreseeable future, but would be nice if built here.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,189
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Post by Neil on Nov 23, 2023 22:23:31 GMT -8
True but future generations might start to see through car culture of Canada and America. I think future will be interesting to see what happens to fleet. I think BBF that you may well be right about this, but it will probably take many years before a significant change in attitudes occur. Big cities are choking on vehicles. Does not matter if they are EV or ICE. At some point travel within major cities and between cities that are relatively close to one another will shift more to public transit. That is why I think the E&N corridor on Vancouver Island needs to be kept in tack. Trains & passenger focused ferry systems will make more & more sense. Yes, the jury is still out on this one. My younger daughter lives right at Surrey Central, in a 260 square foot rental. We argue about road and transit infrastructure, and she refers to me as "you car people". Ten, fifteen years from now, travel to and from the Island might look completely different. Even more immediately, Hullo might identify a huge part of the travelling public as not being wedded to cars... I doubt it, but, time will tell. Those of us who are old enough to have grown up in the Socred era of highway expansion, even if we didn't share the vision, might not be open enough to how the next generation might choose to get around.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 23, 2023 22:46:02 GMT -8
I think BBF that you may well be right about this, but it will probably take many years before a significant change in attitudes occur. Big cities are choking on vehicles. Does not matter if they are EV or ICE. At some point travel within major cities and between cities that are relatively close to one another will shift more to public transit. That is why I think the E&N corridor on Vancouver Island needs to be kept in tack. Trains & passenger focused ferry systems will make more & more sense. Yes, the jury is still out on this one. My younger daughter lives right at Surrey Central, in a 260 square foot rental. We argue about road and transit infrastructure, and she refers to me as "you car people". Ten, fifteen years from now, travel to and from the Island might look completely different. Even more immediately, Hullo might identify a huge part of the travelling public as not being wedded to cars... I doubt it, but, time will tell. Those of us who are old enough to have grown up in the Socred era of highway expansion, even if we didn't share the vision, might not be open enough to how the next generation might choose to get around. The deal is Neil, that we, our generation, are in or getting close to the final years of our driving careers. I just bought a new car that will probably be the last car I ever buy. My son, now 30 years old, has never owned a car. I think he is comfortable without one.
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Post by cbachmeier on Nov 24, 2023 1:19:11 GMT -8
I thought the upper vehicle deck will be convertible space for increase passenger capacity. Something tells me we won’t see much follow-through on that plan. It’s pretty clear after last summer that vehicle capacity needs to rise, so I’d expect vehicle decks will remain solely vehicle decks for the foreseeable future. This is a crazy thought I had relating to this it is highly unlikely but one Idea ive conceived is the possiblity of having 3 full vehicle decks (2 ramps still but like a 3rd vehicle deck above or below "the big deck") if that makes sense kinda like the salish class boats. It sounds crazy but i think it could solve some of these problems but it probably would require a few minutes of extra loading time for loading at full capacity.
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Post by Mike on Nov 24, 2023 9:14:23 GMT -8
Something tells me we won’t see much follow-through on that plan. It’s pretty clear after last summer that vehicle capacity needs to rise, so I’d expect vehicle decks will remain solely vehicle decks for the foreseeable future. This is a crazy thought I had relating to this it is highly unlikely but one Idea ive conceived is the possiblity of having 3 full vehicle decks (2 ramps still but like a 3rd vehicle deck above or below "the big deck") if that makes sense kinda like the salish class boats. It sounds crazy but i think it could solve some of these problems but it probably would require a few minutes of extra loading time for loading at full capacity. They could give these extra decks a catchy name like "gallery" or "platform" decks.
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