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Post by old_wsf_fan on Apr 24, 2007 21:47:35 GMT -8
I was browsing the WSF website concerning the current and upcoming maintenence needs on the Steels and saw that they are going to get stability tests.
I have read that they don't meet stability regulations. Are they all going to be tested? Is that the holdup of getting the Nisqually's COI back? With the restrictions placed on the Rhody, it seems like the Coast Guard is taking a tougher stance with the older vessels. Is it age or vessel design or both?
Is there a possibility that those boats may be pulled from service or are they still grandfathered?
Were the stability tests planned all along or did the Klick's crack cause the Coast Guard to order new restrictions.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 25, 2007 6:33:57 GMT -8
The Coast Guard could potentially order all of the steel-electrics out of service, which would create serious problems if that happened before the new vessels are in service. As for the Rhody, I wonder if the modifications made last year (mainly the deckhouse extension for what I'm assuming is the security room) contributed to the new restrictions on her. The steel-electrics are operating under a waiver of the stability requirements with the following restriction: Source: www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/45F09DA3-7B61-4D89-ABDF-8FCDE676DB09/0/Appendix3_Vessel_Evaluation.pdf |
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 26, 2007 10:03:52 GMT -8
It probably has something to do with the WSF press rep's quote of "If they weren't safe, the USCG wouldn't allow us to operate them." That button, having been pushed, cannot be un-pushed. If the USCG pulls the Steelies from service... well, it'll be an interesting interim, won't it?
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Post by Electric Thunderbird on Apr 26, 2007 15:15:54 GMT -8
Hmm, they could make new exact duplicate dimensioned ferries of the Steel Electrics......
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Post by hergfest on Apr 26, 2007 23:13:20 GMT -8
If they pull the Steel Electrics, they would have to move the Rhody to the Keystone route. She would be undersized for the route, especially in the summer, but there is no other way around it. And that is only if they let her cross shipping lanes.
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 27, 2007 4:11:28 GMT -8
Nope. Rhody isn't allowed to cross shipping lanes, I don't think. She also has a couple of other operating restrictions that would prohibit her from working out that-a-way. Plus, she'd get swept out to sea on the first big tide.  |
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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 27, 2007 6:39:09 GMT -8
Nope. Rhody isn't allowed to cross shipping lanes, I don't think. She also has a couple of other operating restrictions that would prohibit her from working out that-a-way. Correct on the shipping lanes restriction. She also can't operate on routes that go farther than 0.9 nautical miles from shore. |
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Post by In Washington on Apr 27, 2007 6:49:58 GMT -8
The Rhododendron can't cross shipping lanes anymore. She has only three routing possibilities. Inter Island, Pt. Def./Tahlequah and Vashon Southworth.
She could handle the tide though... Tahlequah has one of the nastier cross currents in the system. Gives a whole new (or is it the old?) meaning to side thrust.
If there is enough water at Keystone, I think we would actually see something like the Sealth there if the Steel Electrics were tied up. I believe the Evergreen class lack the rudders and power to chance it there in anything other than ideal conditions.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 27, 2007 7:06:00 GMT -8
The Rhododendron can't cross shipping lanes anymore. She has only three routing possibilities. Inter Island, Pt. Def./Tahlequah and Vashon Southworth. She could handle the tide though... Tahlequah has one of the nastier cross currents in the system. Gives a whole new (or is it the old?) meaning to side thrust. I thought she could be used on the Mukilteo/Clinton route (according to the last time I read the USCG certificate) or did that change recently? The current down at Tahlequah can be rather nasty. When the Olympic was down there I can't recall ever seeing her do a normal landing. |
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Post by zman on Apr 27, 2007 7:20:41 GMT -8
I dont think that there is a 'normal landing' at Tahlequah
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Post by SS San Mateo on Apr 27, 2007 8:35:46 GMT -8
Has WSF looked into whether or not it would be feasible to acquire (and rebuilt if necessary) the Kennedy Class vessels (Staten Island ferry) for use here? I know that at least one vessel (American Legion II) has been decomissioned (according to siferry.com). |
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Post by in washington on Apr 27, 2007 12:06:27 GMT -8
The New York boats are built to carry many passengers and only a few cars. Now that cars can't be taken on them (post 9/11) it isn't an issue. Most of them can haul 2000+ pasengers and about 40 cars. I don't know much about how they handle but I think some of them have the "egg beaters".
If the USCG shuts down the Steel Electrics completely WSF will be hurting. The used US built ferry market is pretty slim and WSF just doesn't have the boats to sustain the current service level if they lost 3 (4 with the Nisqually) boats. An act of Congress to bypass the Jones Act, even temporarily, is not probable. If it happened maybe the Chinook and the Snohoimish in trade for a Pacific Cat? LOL
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Kam
Voyager 
Posts: 926
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Post by Kam on Apr 27, 2007 12:53:00 GMT -8
If it happened maybe the Chinook and the Snohoimish in trade for a Pacific Cat? LOL wow, never even thought of that! lol... Makes one wonder though... |
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 27, 2007 15:16:17 GMT -8
Well, WSF would reduce their number of useless boats by one at any rate... ;D
The .9 NM offshore restriction was the one I was thinking of--I couldn't remember if it was .8 or .9 NM. It's been a good six years since I've worked on the Rhody.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Apr 28, 2007 2:26:46 GMT -8
Has WSF looked into whether or not it would be feasible to acquire (and rebuilt if necessary) the Kennedy Class vessels (Staten Island ferry) for use here? I know that at least one vessel (American Legion II) has been decomissioned (according to siferry.com). Greetings, all! For the past year or so, I've been putting designs in my head on how to rework three retiring Staten Island ferries for use as Washington State ferries. We'll, this month, I finally put these in byte form. The prime objective is that these have a remarkable shallow 13 foot draft for their design and are candidates for rebuilding for use on the Port Townsend - Keystone run. With that in mind, very little or no dredging is needed for Keystone harbor and these vessels could use the existing dock there. The vessels that are being discussed in this posting are the JOHN F KENNEDY, THE GOV HERBERT H LEHMAN, and AMERICAN LEGION II. These three 1965 ferries are 294 feet in length and about 70 feet in beam. These currently have a 30 or so car space down three single lane tunnels through the center on the Main Deck of these vessels (the sides of this deck has wooden bench passenger lounges and stairways to the Saloon Deck). One side of the Main Deck has the Men's Heads. The Saloon Deck has a large amount of wooden benches, the Ladies Heads, and a snack counter. An open prom is at each end with double gangway access to the shore. The Boat Deck has more wooden bench seating inside, a shelter promenade at each side, a crew lounge amidships, a wheelhouse at each end, and lifesaving items as well. I've studied the design of these vessels when I took my first trip to NYC in 2000. I took 10 one way trips aboard the JFK ferries (there is no passenger ferry fares on this extended service of NYC Transit). Some major work is needed to bring these to Puget Sound ferry service.  TOP DECK This is where the stack is and the machinery vents are. The stack, as well as the vents, get the green, white, and black colors. The elevator machinery would be on this deck. A new railing would be installed as well as relocated side navigation lights. New steel tubular masts with the International Rules navigation lights would be installed. This is the deck crew would use to view rescue boat operation. Accessed by vertical ladders from the RHODY-patios below. BOAT DECK The whole benches, crew lounge, bridge wings, and lifesaving apparatuses get deleted. New crew accommodations are added with staterooms for the deck crew (CSR), engineers (ESR), and officers (OSR). The wheelhouses are the same as well as their internal accesways. New RHODY-like patios and stairs replace the bridge wings and are surrounded by an L-shaped security screen at all four locations. New liferafts and rescue boats are added (protected by screens). The middle is redone with a new Emergency Generator room, batteries, cleaning gear, and new High Volume Air Conditioning rooms (replacing the ones located above the now deleted Main Deck side lounges). A new windbreak shelter lounge is sandwiched between the crew accommodation and machinery space at each end and has an archway at each side leading to the shelter promenades. Stair accessways are at the corners in the side shelters and the existing ones at each end. Elevators serve this deck. The triangles you see at each corner shelter stairway are safeguards preventing inattentive promenaders from accidentally falling down the stairs to the Saloon Deck. Relocated steering guides and a new railing open the ends up for better passenger viewing of whales and scenery. See below illustration of the new arrangement.  SALOON DECK The Saloon Deck gets a total makeover. All public heads are now on this deck as well as a new small galley. I have retained the existing stairways to the Boat Deck at each end and placed the new stairways to the Main Deck at each side. There are currently three sets of sliding doors at each end, these are deleted in this design. The ends are now weather tight with windows for viewing. I have created an enclosed prom at each side of these end spaces with double-doors leading into them. There are doors at the ends to prevent tunnel wind. A stairway to the Boat Deck is added. Also, Marine Escape Slides are incorporated into this as well, just like what you'll be seeing on the new Junior Mark II ferries. There is an equipment shaft running between the wheelhouse and the hull at each end (current and new design). There are two machinery vent uptakes at each end and are retained in my design. New elevators are incorporated within the area of these uptakes as well as an office at one end. Vending machines are located adjacent to the main stairways. All current side windows are to be retained, polished, and reused in this design. See below illustration of the new arrangement.  MAIN DECK As was in the case of the OLYMPIC and RHODODENDRON when these former Maryland ferries began service here in the 1950s, the JFK ferries have bows with great radius. Extensions will need to be added at each end (exactly like what was done to the Maryland sisters in 1984) to give their bows a WSF standard thirteen foot radius. The vertical bow ends are to be reshaped to support the new overhangs. At the same time, their beams need to be widened to nearly 85 feet to comfortably handle two additional lanes of cars at each side. The long steel wall, separating the cars from the side passenger lounges, will need removal as well as these lounges and Saloon Deck stairways. The two middle structures for uptakes, et al, are to be redone to accommodate new Saloon Deck stairways and two elevators. Two crew shelters are added with flotation vest storage adjacent. See below illustration of the new arrangement. The voided lane space is for compact cars or two-wheeled vehicles.  WHISTLES The whistles on the JFK ferries sound like Navy ships and shouldn't be changed. MACHINERY The machinery aboard these vessels is Diesel - Electric. Speed is fifteen knots. NAMES Only one of these ferries need a name change. Contrary to naming practices at WSF, these should be called: The "President Class". In honor of the current head of Seattle's Museum of Flight, Astronaut Dunbar, retain the nameboard aboard the JOHN F KENNEDY as the man of that name steered us towards manned space missions to the Moon. Change the nameboard of the LEHMAN to GEORGE WASHINGTON as our state was named after him. Retain the name of AMERICAN LEGION II on the third one if purchased. |
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 28, 2007 6:57:56 GMT -8
Well, I'll certainly acknowledge the beautiful artwork and that the premise is intriguing! The question is, could the necessary modification work be done for less than what it would cost to work the EVERGREEN STATE over?
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Post by SS Shasta on Apr 28, 2007 16:25:32 GMT -8
Should the Coast Guard be keeping a low profile these days? I would think that the Steel Electrics are far safer than many of these new cutters that they have been building recently ;D.
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Post by hergfest on Apr 28, 2007 20:41:19 GMT -8
WSf wants to retire the Hyak because she is 40 years old. These NYC boats are even older.
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 29, 2007 4:15:04 GMT -8
Hergfest--when was the last time you heard any mention of retiring the Hyak? Last I'd heard they had quietly dropped her off the list of pensioners, and they don't talk much about striking the Evergreen off the roster anymore...
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Post by hergfest on Apr 29, 2007 10:56:02 GMT -8
Still, what is the point of refurbing a 40 year old boat?
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Post by Barnacle on Apr 29, 2007 15:40:04 GMT -8
To make it last until 60. ;D
After all, they refurbished the Steel-Electrics when they were 54, 57, 58, and 59.
Which, admittedly, was probably a mistake, but no new boats were forthcoming. The money would be fairly well-spent in the Hyak given her size. Because of that redeeming quality, it's worth putting some coin into. Maybe not a full banana job like the Kaleetan and Yakima, but definitely soup the ol 'girl up a bit.
(I'm mildly defensive about the Hyak because I'm pushing the old canoe along these days. ;D)
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Post by old_wsf_fan on Apr 29, 2007 21:44:39 GMT -8
Were a little off subject now but I think it makes good economic sense to rebuild a vessel to extend the service lives.
WSF takes very good care of the fleet, they sail in protected waters(not in the open ocean), so they don't take the abuse that an ocean going vessel would see.
That in itself adds life to a vessel. Building new ferries is mighty expensive and now more time consuming. If a vessel can be justifiably rebuilt and continue in use for a fraction of the cost of a new vessel then I am all for it.
Oh, by the way, anyone have any info on the stability tests that can be shared here?
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Post by Barnacle on May 1, 2007 14:38:30 GMT -8
I wasn't aware that any had been done yet.
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